Does it matter if the high street dies?

[Oilchange]

Biggy Stardust said:

High streets aren't dying of natural causes- they're being killed by stupid councils and daft legislation.

This is it.

[Esceptico]

Olivera said:

They still pay (at least) NI, PAYE, VAT and Business Rates even if they don't make a profit.

This is the antiquated tax regime I was referring to: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/business-55971003

Amazon's total 2021 Business Rate's bill is estimated at £71.5m on sales of ~£26.5b. Topshop's (Arcadia) business rates bill is estimated at £91m, on perhaps (at best) £2bn of sales.

Okay. I wouldn’t normally include rates as “taxes”. PAYE and VAT are paid by employees and customers respectively. They are merely collected by retailers.

Amazon presumably has less building space and presumably on the outskirts or outside of major towns with less infrastructure and hence lower rents and rates. Councils are probably struggling because they have relied on higher business rates for city centre shops and offices but are going to be hit hard by online shopping and probably WFH. On the other hand, if fewer people are going into the city every day maybe they can save costs.

[Esceptico]

Liokault said:

If you take the shopping away and add housing, what’s the draw? I can drive to 5 (off the top of my head...prob more) out of town Costa/Starbucks, not to mention a bazillion other brands, quicker than I can drive to my nearest city centre. With out the draw of shopping or banking, why would I bother?

Maybe doesn’t need a draw for non residents. More residential properties = more residents = more demand for services - cafes, restaurants, gyms, cinemas. Fewer shops will mean fewer cars in the city centre making it a nicer place to live. People might then move back in from the suburbs.

[bitchstewie]

It matters if you work there and it matters if that's the only place you can get to (elderly, disabled etc.) and perhaps for the few things that are best purchased face to face.

I was discussing this the other day with a few people who all said that on Monday there was a sense of "meh" about non-essential retail being re-opened simply because they couldn't think of any reason to go there.

YMMV of course.

[Stuart70]

Oilchange said:

Biggy Stardust said:

High streets aren't dying of natural causes- they're being killed by stupid councils and daft legislation.

This is it.

Town centres are being killed by changes in shopping habits accelerated by a lock down pandemic.
Councils rightly charging for parking to reduce car use and environmental damage is not helping
They are not being protected by the rates system, for sure, but it would not change the outcome.

[Johnnytheboy]

Big high streets are in trouble, small ones seem to be doing better.

[anonymous-user]

Oilchange said:

Biggy Stardust said:

High streets aren't dying of natural causes- they're being killed by stupid councils and daft legislation.

This is it.

While that is undeniably a large factor, I think ultimately the way things people do things is changing too. Young people especially do everything on their phones, theres no reason to go to the highstreet when you have 1000 times more choice online.
I'm hoping the highstreets become more sociable areas, with more cafés/restaurants, markets etc. Somewhere that its worth the effort to go and relax, rather than just hustling round a load of tired shops. Obviously Covid won't allow that to happen at the moment, but perhaps one day things will go back to normal

[Ziplobb]

Biggy Stardust said:

High streets aren't dying of natural causes- they're being killed by stupid councils and daft legislation.

this 100%

[Ziplobb]

Esceptico said:

You only pay tax if you make profits.

Cobblers
I collect VAT every quarter in my shop . It cost me money to collect and account for it . The government do not cover the cost of this . It has to be paid regardless of any other factor as long as I open the door and there are takings. Tax is paid out of salaries. I pay council tax or though in recent times there has been relief from that. The business pays road tax on its vehicle, insurance premium tax oh and the lasted tax to the ICO to register under GDPR.

[Glade]

I'm going to town for a haircut and a pint tonight.

Not arsed about "shopping", more socialising.

Then I am booked in the local pub for lunch Thursday. One of the trendy bar/clubs in Leeds brought a run down flat roof pub and modernised it... they've effectively moved out of town and created a venue in the suburbs. We started going there a lot for lunch while working from home last year instead of going out in town.

A successful microbrewery based close to city center has moved into bigger premises halfway between home and town, so friday night beers are also not in town but in the suburbs. They already grew by having a bar selling their beer in all the suburban centers and they are already very popular.

Mrs is keen to "go shopping" and browse stuff, and on the news I saw people queuing at Primani etc

But for me I can see a shift to busier suburban centres, and a resurgence of local butchers, veg shops, trendy barbers, independent clothes shops etc.

Now I am WFH I would rather walk locally, have a pint in a nice cosy local bar serving local beer, then go to an independent restaurant for dinner.

Problem is on the social side the city is still a hub. Most of my friends don't live in the same place.

But now Instead of going for a shandy after work I can get the bus in nd get plastered because I don't have a car to deal with!

[Glade]

Also "new build" suburbs like those around Swindon are not prime for rejuvenation as the local shopping center is an industrial complex with an asda Walmart superstore or smaller ones have an Toby carvery and a tesco local.

Contrast to 1930's developments around a city like leeeds and there are plenty ty of local highstreets and buildings that used to be local corner shops.... so ot's easier for small businesses to set up to serve the local community here.

[Tryke3]

Liokault said:

Only thing we bought were two pretzels and an ice cream totalling almost as much as the parking charge.

How tight are you ?

[rossub]

Big free to use car parks that aren’t miles away from the shops would be a good start.

But no, councils think we’ll all take the bus instead. Yeah right.

[ARHarh]

I may not be a typical high street customer but I find them next to useless for most stuff. They either don't have the stock or just plain don't sell what I want. I don't want to sit in some town center drinking expensive coffee or eating average food. I live near a very nice market town but for most stuff it is not really much use, if it wasn't for Wilko I would probably never visit at all. I do partake of out of town shopping more often though as I find the whole experience easier.

[Ian Geary]

Biggy Stardust said:

High streets aren't dying of natural causes- they're being killed by stupid councils and daft legislation.

I assume the council issue is parking fees. It's supply and demand..if there were no parking charges in some places, the spaces would be full of residents and employees, so shoppers wouldn't get a look in anyway.

A s private sector companies charge the same if not more for parking...so by this logic the private sector is also stupid.

Governments have been pushing councils to be more "commercial" well before austerity hit.

We could always lobby our councillors to end parking charges...there could be a special referendum to increase the council tax to pay for the loss. I'll give you two guesses what the outcome will be, but I think you will only need one.



As for daft legislation... not sure if that relates to covid, but some high streets were dying well ahead of that. There's other threads to flog that horse.

Other legislation then... business rates perhaps? Not ensuring equality of tax burden for online Vs bricks and mortar? No, not sure, you'll have to expand on what legislation specifically is causing businesses that can't adapt to die out.


To answer the question, I would raise the point about who owns those premises, and who stands to lose if rents collapse? I believe a number of pension funds might we'll get a soaking.

Our economy needs the wheels to turn to generate wealth. I'm aware of some redundant shopping centres re opening as experience parks (soft play, laser quest, skating, food etc) which seems entirely sensible, but somewhat finite.

[Crumpet]

Esceptico said:

Maybe doesn’t need a draw for non residents. More residential properties = more residents = more demand for services - cafes, restaurants, gyms, cinemas. Fewer shops will mean fewer cars in the city centre making it a nicer place to live. People might then move back in from the suburbs.

I think hoping that people move back to city centres is rather wishful thinking! If lockdown has shown us anything it’s that being locked up in a city centre apartment is utter misery compared to having your own garden out in the suburbs.

Don’t forget that most town centres are grotty places, awash with miserable 1960s architecture and, in the case of my local town, miserable 2000s architecture. Without flattening the lot very few towns are likely to be desirable places to live. If they do go down the route of residential it’ll end up as social housing and suffer all the problems that go along with it - ie. no one would spend their own money to live there. Town centres are completely doomed.

[durbster]

Esceptico said:

Gecko1978 said:

It matters if you work there. Also while online can provide same product its can't replace all the jobs. Not the consumers pronlem of course but it does have an impact. High st store, staff, cleaning staff, security, store displays and branding, small cafes catering for customers, other shops open as big stores attract foot fall. Or faceless warehouse, less staff, no branding, no cafes, less support staff etc.

But are they “good” jobs? Most retail jobs add very little value. That wasn’t necessarily true in the past when a well trained shop assistant could advise you on your purchase. However nowadays you can do your research online and get feedback from people who have actually purchased what you want to buy. More relevant and free.

If you're talking about online reviews then they are not reliable at all. A huge amount of online reviews are fake these days, particularly on places like Amazon.

There are still high street stores where the staff add real value - Richer Sounds for example.

I think out of town retail parks are the future. Getting in and out of a city or town is often a total pain in the arse these days but a retail park with a massive car park or good public transport links makes the whole process much more pleasant.

[Sheets Tabuer]

There is a market town a few miles from me and the council put the parking charges up, madness. Bonkers when they only have space for about 10 cars.

What they should do is have free parking for 20 or 30 minutes so you can drop off your dry cleaning, get an eye test and such like, if I need anything I drive over to a retail park now where the parking is free.

[anonymous-user]

Johnnytheboy said:

Big high streets are in trouble, small ones seem to be doing better.

This imo. Places like Perth centre have the usual chains that are everywhere and are easily avoided by shopping online. Small high streets like in Scone for example are all (except the smaller style co-op) smaller shops and food providers. Easy to park and walk up and down.

Maybe we will see a return to old style small local high streets ? Big ones in traditional large cities like Perth and Edinburgh are very meh and you could be anywhere.

[hotchy]

My town centre had a huge store, it closed due to £1m rent and rates. Our towns not huge btw. So even though busy, greed closed it. 6 years later its still empty.