Boris Johnson- Prime Minister (Vol. 7)
Discussion
roger.mellie said:
It was deliberately harsh, s
t stirring even, but also honest. I have very little respect for the "I voted Tory because of the alternative" argument. Support them or don't, don't weasel out by absolving yourself of responsibility or of some claim that it was the least worst option. I actually prefer the ultras on that score, they may be a bit frothy but they're honest. I fully understand that FPTP makes that an impossible demand, I'm guilty too of voting for someone I don't want as they're the only one with a chance to beat the dead cert.
The reason it gets trotted out so often in this forum is that the "ultras" on here regularly assume that if you even slightly support a single policy of "the other side", you therefore endorse every policy of theirs and are blind to their many failings. Stewie regularly gets accused of being a Labour stooge for that reason, and other posters only talk in terms of "defending" or "attacking" policies rather than actually discussing them like adults.t stirring even, but also honest. I have very little respect for the "I voted Tory because of the alternative" argument. Support them or don't, don't weasel out by absolving yourself of responsibility or of some claim that it was the least worst option. I actually prefer the ultras on that score, they may be a bit frothy but they're honest. I fully understand that FPTP makes that an impossible demand, I'm guilty too of voting for someone I don't want as they're the only one with a chance to beat the dead cert. Tuna said:
The reason it gets trotted out so often in this forum is that the "ultras" on here regularly assume that if you even slightly support a single policy of "the other side", you therefore endorse every policy of theirs and are blind to their many failings. Stewie regularly gets accused of being a Labour stooge for that reason, and other posters only talk in terms of "defending" or "attacking" policies rather than actually discussing them like adults.
Agreed. Support for a party certainly doesn't mean endorsing every one of their policies. But there is a cohort on forums like this that seem to take any sleight against their chosen party as a personal affront and the internet makes it a spectator sport.On policy, I enjoyed reading your reply to my post yesterday. I don't agree with all of it but certainly agree with the political difficulties and intra party management problems. I'm happy to celebrate the small wins and will give credit where it's due (unless I'm arguing on the internet) but the flip side of that is it's perfectly understandable to hold people to account to their claims, reality getting in the way is not an acceptable excuse to anyone other than a believer. The levelling up discussion is a perfect case in point study of those who just blindly nod along to policy announcements vs those who have actually thought about what the consequences mean and are prepared to dig into their pockets to support it.
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: Because it highlights the ignorance of some of Johnson's MPs and the idiot fans who boo will feel empowered if they see politicians appearing to support them.
So you did. Thanks. And not every fan really wants to have to watch, each game, to a largely political message getting mixed up with their sport. But we know ignorance only goes one way for some. Ironic really.And in another one of life's little ironies we seem to have ministers and the PM going out of their way to support cricketers who've made racist tweets yet when asked about England "fans" booing their own players for an anti-racist gesture all a spokesman can summon up is that the Prime Minister "fully respects the right of those who do choose to peacefully protest to make their feelings known".
It's a funny old game.
It's a funny old game.
ddom said:
So you did. Thanks. And not every fan really wants to have to watch, each game, to a largely political message getting mixed up with their sport. But we know ignorance only goes one way for some. Ironic really.
I'm sure you apply that approach to the wearing of poppies too.vonuber said:
ddom said:
So you did. Thanks. And not every fan really wants to have to watch, each game, to a largely political message getting mixed up with their sport. But we know ignorance only goes one way for some. Ironic really.
I'm sure you apply that approach to the wearing of poppies too.Is it not more subtle and dignified than that, even where players rightly ignore poppy bans while Football Associations of England and Scotland say they will ignore it?
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: And in another one of life's little ironies we seem to have ministers and the PM going out of their way to support cricketers who've made racist tweets yet when asked about England "fans" booing their own players for an anti-racist gesture all a spokesman can summon up is that the Prime Minister "fully respects the right of those who do choose to peacefully protest to make their feelings known".
It's a funny old game.
Yes. I am sure that no 19 year old version of ourselves has every said anything daft.....It's a funny old game.
It's a little bit unpalatable that a disgruntled former colleague would choose to dig up 10-20 year old comments at that particular point in time. I bet he/she is very proud and none of us ever deserve a second chance......
vonuber said:
I'm sure you apply that approach to the wearing of poppies too.
When there is a 'poppy movement' which starts to derail democracy and throw statues in the river etc I will review my support of it, Until then, no, I don't see them as one and the same. Anyway back OT, it's not ok to infer that Ministers, or others are racist because they don't agree with taking a knee. Then to use it as a slur against BJ, of whom I am no fan at all let it be said, I think is pretty disgraceful. But not as mucky as saying that wasn't the intention, when it's blatantly obvious it was. Some have missed a career in politics
ddom said:
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: And in another one of life's little ironies we seem to have ministers and the PM going out of their way to support cricketers who've made racist tweets yet when asked about England "fans" booing their own players for an anti-racist gesture all a spokesman can summon up is that the Prime Minister "fully respects the right of those who do choose to peacefully protest to make their feelings known".
It's a funny old game.
Yes. I am sure that no 19 year old version of ourselves has every said anything daft.....It's a funny old game.
It's a little bit unpalatable that a disgruntled former colleague would choose to dig up 10-20 year old comments at that particular point in time. I bet he/she is very proud and none of us ever deserve a second chance......
It's not really the point though.
Ministers are keen to tweet support for cricketers who've said racist things (and if you've seen the tweets they are not pretty) and the Prime Minister backs them whilst idiots booing black players simply for wanting to be treated as equals are fine so long as they do it peacefully.
Crikey, in another three posts we'll be back to watermelon smiles...
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Anyway, interesting article in The Atlantic, insightful for friends and enemies alike, human beings being "creatures of the imagination,” and all that.
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2021/...
I was always struck by Rory Sutherland's description of the popularity of Trump - 'you have a choice between two new bosses, do you want the barely functional chaotic alcoholic that likes you or the uber-competent micromanager that doesn't?', and there's a lot of that in the above.
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Anyway, interesting article in The Atlantic, insightful for friends and enemies alike, human beings being "creatures of the imagination,” and all that.
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2021/...
I was always struck by Rory Sutherland's description of the popularity of Trump - 'you have a choice between two new bosses, do you want the barely functional chaotic alcoholic that likes you or the uber-competent micromanager that doesn't?', and there's a lot of that in the above.
Edited by andy_s on Monday 7th June 15:46
ddom said:
When there is a 'poppy movement' which starts to derail democracy and throw statues in the river etc I will review my support of it, Until then, no, I don't see them as one and the same.
Ah so it's not politics per se in sport you disagree with, just ones different to yours.I do like this idea that multi-millionaire footballers take the knee because they're actually secret Marxists who want to "derail democracy and throw statues in the river" and the best cover story they could come up with was "we're doing it to show we're against racism".
Still I'm sure you know why they're doing it better than they do
Still I'm sure you know why they're doing it better than they do
vonuber said:
ddom said:
When there is a 'poppy movement' which starts to derail democracy and throw statues in the river etc I will review my support of it, Until then, no, I don't see them as one and the same.
Ah so it's not politics per se in sport you disagree with, just ones different to yours.The time has come for the black community to drop BLM the organization The negatives surrounding the organization is hurting our legitimate movement toward establishing a culture and nation based upon racial fairness
Also
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jun...
Outcomes also matter, surely, including counter-productivity.
Race hate crimes increased by a third during period of Black Lives Matter protests
What negative outcomes follow wearing a poppy on a football shirt? Forces lives matter too,
turbobloke said:
Also
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jun...
Outcomes also matter, surely, including counter-productivity.
Race hate crimes increased by a third during period of Black Lives Matter protests
What negative outcomes follow wearing a poppy on a football shirt? Forces lives matter too,
So people shouldn’t stand up against racists because racists don’t like it?https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jun...
Outcomes also matter, surely, including counter-productivity.
Race hate crimes increased by a third during period of Black Lives Matter protests
What negative outcomes follow wearing a poppy on a football shirt? Forces lives matter too,
Surely the fact race crime has increased shows we still have a problem that needs addresing
Also from your link
“ Even racists hate racism. That’s why they’re always looking for ways to excuse what they do. “It’s not my fault – black people are just a bit more criminal than white people.” “I’m not being racist – it’s just that a lot of Muslims are terrorists.”
Sounds pretty much like what a few people on NP&E post
Edited by chrispmartha on Monday 7th June 16:58
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: I do like this idea that multi-millionaire footballers take the knee because they're actually secret Marxists who want to "derail democracy and throw statues in the river" and the best cover story they could come up with was "we're doing it to show we're against racism".
Still I'm sure you know why they're doing it better than they do
yep, because I am not trying to put a spin on it, unlike yourself.Still I'm sure you know why they're doing it better than they do
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