The by-election thread

[ElectricSoup]

Six Potter said:

Derek Smith said:

If the reports of aggressive behaviour are to be believed, there is the concern that these tactics might be the new norm.

There seems to have been an ongoing decline in conduct to the point where it seems like anything is seen as fair game now. The "good chap" operation of politics has been ebbing away, it's now dog-eat-dog with everyone fighting tooth and nail. We've seen it in parliament on both sides particularly with brexit, both opposition MP's, the speaker and the government defying the established parliamentary conventions to get their way. I guess the only way to avoid unsavoury and unreasonable conduct now is to regulate things with hard and fast rules on what is and isn't allowed.

Some kind of "written constitution" perhaps.

[HM-2]

El stovey said:

NextSlidePlease said:

Another belting (read: car crash) interview by Dianne Abbot on BBC news right now.

She’s terrible,

I have literally no idea how she remains in a position of constituency support. She's the living embodiment of a train wreck.

[Six Potter]

ElectricSoup said:

Six Potter said:

Derek Smith said:

If the reports of aggressive behaviour are to be believed, there is the concern that these tactics might be the new norm.

There seems to have been an ongoing decline in conduct to the point where it seems like anything is seen as fair game now. The "good chap" operation of politics has been ebbing away, it's now dog-eat-dog with everyone fighting tooth and nail. We've seen it in parliament on both sides particularly with brexit, both opposition MP's, the speaker and the government defying the established parliamentary conventions to get their way. I guess the only way to avoid unsavoury and unreasonable conduct now is to regulate things with hard and fast rules on what is and isn't allowed.

Some kind of "written constitution" perhaps.

That could be a good place to start.

[Roofless Toothless]

Six Potter said:

ElectricSoup said:

Six Potter said:

Derek Smith said:

If the reports of aggressive behaviour are to be believed, there is the concern that these tactics might be the new norm.

There seems to have been an ongoing decline in conduct to the point where it seems like anything is seen as fair game now. The "good chap" operation of politics has been ebbing away, it's now dog-eat-dog with everyone fighting tooth and nail. We've seen it in parliament on both sides particularly with brexit, both opposition MP's, the speaker and the government defying the established parliamentary conventions to get their way. I guess the only way to avoid unsavoury and unreasonable conduct now is to regulate things with hard and fast rules on what is and isn't allowed.

Some kind of "written constitution" perhaps.

That could be a good place to start.

How has the possession of a written constitution helped the democratic process in the USA?

[ElectricSoup]

Roofless Toothless said:

Six Potter said:

ElectricSoup said:

Six Potter said:

Derek Smith said:

If the reports of aggressive behaviour are to be believed, there is the concern that these tactics might be the new norm.

There seems to have been an ongoing decline in conduct to the point where it seems like anything is seen as fair game now. The "good chap" operation of politics has been ebbing away, it's now dog-eat-dog with everyone fighting tooth and nail. We've seen it in parliament on both sides particularly with brexit, both opposition MP's, the speaker and the government defying the established parliamentary conventions to get their way. I guess the only way to avoid unsavoury and unreasonable conduct now is to regulate things with hard and fast rules on what is and isn't allowed.

Some kind of "written constitution" perhaps.

That could be a good place to start.

How has the possession of a written constitution helped the democratic process in the USA?

Seems to have helped to prevent a seizure of power by a President who would otherwise have refused to leave office IMHO.

[bitchstewie]

ElectricSoup said:

It's the will of the people. You now have to get over it and unite behind the winning side and support absolutely everything they do otherwise you're a traitor. And never speak of it again, your opinions are over.

That's how it works, right Murph?

I did think that

Thing is it really is a stshow up there.

[ElectricSoup]

bhstewie said:

ElectricSoup said:

It's the will of the people. You now have to get over it and unite behind the winning side and support absolutely everything they do otherwise you're a traitor. And never speak of it again, your opinions are over.

That's how it works, right Murph?

I did think that

Thing is it really is a stshow up there.

Which is hardly the fault of the new MP, who appears to have been the only party who acted with any shred of decency. So I'm delighted she won but appalled it was so close.

[bitchstewie]

chrispmartha said:

bhstewie said:

Honestly if you live in Batley and Spen and you look outside and you have Galloway, Fox, Fransen, and Robinson all stirring the st and the incumbent party appearing to be campaigning more around Palestine and Kashmir than local issues it's a stshow so I agree that many of them probably feel pretty pissed off right now.

Pissed off is correct, it was an absolute stshow

Think you said you live in the constituency?

What's the reality of it up there?

Certainly doesn't seem/sound like any normal by-election.

[Murph7355]

ElectricSoup said:

Murph7355 said:

bhstewie said:

Funny seeing all the excuses coming out though.

How it started

"The Conservatives are ahead in the polls Starmer will have to go when they lose this"

How it's going

"You have to remember it's a mid-term and Labour have held the seat so this really isn't unexpected"

Are the two things mutually exclusive?

This isn't a good result for anyone. Including the people of Batley and Spen as I imagine rather a lot of them feel politically disenfranchised right now, which is not good.

It's the will of the people. You now have to get over it and unite behind the winning side and support absolutely everything they do otherwise you're a traitor. And never speak of it again, your opinions are over.

That's how it works, right Murph?

You are correct. That is how it works.

But whilst you and others seem to struggle with the concept, life isn't really binary,

16.8% is significantly less than 37.5%...or 29.3%. The lower these numbers are, the more one needs to be careful when declaring a vote being against division.

(To be fair to her I've just seen Leadbeater note that one of her priorities is to get people working together...that's great. If she can do this then all credit to her. The way their campaign seems to have been run I'm not sure she has the ability to do this, and the Labour party certainly don't seem to. But she and they have until the next election to prove it).

ElectricSoup said:

Murph7355 said:

I ignore the LibDems as despite "the good folk of Amersham" they are an irrelevance right now

https://youtu.be/XBZUz4C6kqk

Had to cut and paste your link...glad I did as it's amused me no end.

You *really* think the Amersham by-election is a portent of the LibDems rising from the ashes?

I'm not even convinced the LibDems will win Amersham at a General Election, let alone sweep all before them aside and storm to a majority.

(Unless you were declaring Ed Davey as the King of Wishful Thinking. In which case please accept my apologies as I totally agree. That blue wall and stty little plastic hammer from the ELC will age about as well as the other Ed's tablet).

btw, if you take my posts as being from a dyed in the wool Tory fanboi, you are wrong. Quite a bit of what this government has done over the last 18mths has been concerning to me, especially on the economy. We *need* a better opposition, if for no other reason than to make the current govt (many of whose policies I do have time for) think they cannot simply do wtf they want.

I don't focus on the personalities as many seem to (which almost makes me feel dirty as it's in full agreement with Diane Abbott of all people!), and wish our media could avoid doing the same. I'll see what the results of their policies and actions are come the next GE and if Ed Davey has been allowed into a shop that sells grown up hammers and actually has decent policies then I'll even consider voting for him (I've voted LibDem in the past and felt the coalition govt was actually one of the better ones we've had in the last 30yrs).

[Murph7355]

ElectricSoup said:

Which is hardly the fault of the new MP, who appears to have been the only party who acted with any shred of decency. So I'm delighted she won but appalled it was so close.

I think you need to read a bit wider if you think the Labour played a straight bat in this by-election.

[ElectricSoup]

I'm not going to quote post you Murph as I'm st at it and it'll be too big. But for you to agree with my obviously sarcastic comment that everyone should unite behind winning parties and never speak of it again is of course a consquence of your absolute adherence to Brexit and your refusal to see that a huge number of people remain very, very unhappy with it and all its negative consequences, and that the right of dissent is even more important in a democracy than the will of the people.

No of course I don' think the LibDems are going to win a Genearl Election but I do thin the'yre going to cause the Tories significant losses in the South and South East.

I'm sorry about the link, I tired to C&P it twice but this page refused to see it as a link. The one I posted for Pan the God Of Brexit and Parrots went in as a link for some reason, even though I treated both imposters just the same (Kipling reference in case you're wondering).

[chrispmartha]

bhstewie said:

Think you said you live in the constituency?

What's the reality of it up there?

Certainly doesn't seem/sound like any normal by-election.

It is a stshow, weve had intimidation from all 3 main parties, Lawrence Fox sticking his oar in for no otger reason than to create discourse, the whole campaigns centred on Batley leaving other constituents feeling left out/disenfranchised but to be honest i just think politics in general is totally toxic at the moment and it just manifests itself in things like this by election.

I think this was the conservatives only real chance of taking control of the area but we saw activists being rude and disrespectful on social media to potential voters, on the flip side we’ve seen labour activists outside schools and harassing people.

I did laugh yesterday when i saw some UKIP campaigners driving round in a van with a megaphone, I mean what exactly is the point if them after the brexit vote?

I wish binface/buckethead would have stood as they would have been the most sensible out of the lot of them.

[chrispmartha]

Murph7355 said:

ElectricSoup said:

Which is hardly the fault of the new MP, who appears to have been the only party who acted with any shred of decency. So I'm delighted she won but appalled it was so close.

I think you need to read a bit wider if you think the Labour played a straight bat in this by-election.

I can tell you that they didn’t play a straight bat at all, lots of people were annoyed at how they campaigned

I will say I am glad she won though

[kev1974]

Another election where the exit polls turned out way off the mark.
When I went to bed they were saying that the Cons had it safely in the bag.

[Murph7355]

ElectricSoup said:

I'm not going to quote post you Murph as I'm st at it and it'll be too big. But for you to agree with my obviously sarcastic comment that everyone should unite behind winning parties and never speak of it again is of course a consquence of your absolute adherence to Brexit and your refusal to see that a huge number of people remain very, very unhappy with it and all its negative consequences, and that the right of dissent is even more important in a democracy than the will of the people.

No of course I don' think the LibDems are going to win a Genearl Election but I do thin the'yre going to cause the Tories significant losses in the South and South East...

You read what you want to read.

My "adherence" where Brexit is concerned, or Batley and Spen, is that a democratic process was followed and an outcome was achieved. The losing side must regroup and learn. I have not said they have to unite behind the winning side. I never have. Indeed I have very clearly noted that the lower the number of people actively supporting a path, the less likely it is that any division has been "healed".

"Constructive dissent" is perfectly fine. I've long been taught to come with solutions not issues - a glib statement in many respects, but a valid one. Build an argument to go the way you want and sell it to people. Sadly that has been glaring by its absence over at least the last 5yrs. It probably started much earlier than that.

The biggest negative of the EU referendum was that it seems to have engendered in the people of this country a desire to tear ourselves apart. And it's permeating everything, it seems, at present. We are allowing the cult of personality and soundbites to infect everything and it is not healthy.

As for the LibDems, the only thing that will currently harm the Tories at the next election is the Tories. Neither Labour nor the LibDems have a positive, meaningful set of policies right now. I think/hope the electorate will rail against negative politics over the remainder of this term, but the signs aren't looking that great.

We'll see.

[ElectricSoup]

Murph7355 said:

ElectricSoup said:

I'm not going to quote post you Murph as I'm st at it and it'll be too big. But for you to agree with my obviously sarcastic comment that everyone should unite behind winning parties and never speak of it again is of course a consquence of your absolute adherence to Brexit and your refusal to see that a huge number of people remain very, very unhappy with it and all its negative consequences, and that the right of dissent is even more important in a democracy than the will of the people.

No of course I don' think the LibDems are going to win a Genearl Election but I do thin the'yre going to cause the Tories significant losses in the South and South East...

You read what you want to read.

My "adherence" where Brexit is concerned, or Batley and Spen, is that a democratic process was followed and an outcome was achieved. The losing side must regroup and learn. I have not said they have to unite behind the winning side. I never have. Indeed I have very clearly noted that the lower the number of people actively supporting a path, the less likely it is that any division has been "healed".

"Constructive dissent" is perfectly fine. I've long been taught to come with solutions not issues - a glib statement in many respects, but a valid one. Build an argument to go the way you want and sell it to people. Sadly that has been glaring by its absence over at least the last 5yrs. It probably started much earlier than that.

The biggest negative of the EU referendum was that it seems to have engendered in the people of this country a desire to tear ourselves apart. And it's permeating everything, it seems, at present. We are allowing the cult of personality and soundbites to infect everything and it is not healthy.

As for the LibDems, the only thing that will currently harm the Tories at the next election is the Tories. Neither Labour nor the LibDems have a positive, meaningful set of policies right now. I think/hope the electorate will rail against negative politics over the remainder of this term, but the signs aren't looking that great.

We'll see.

I said: "It's the will of the people. You now have to get over it and unite behind the winning side and support absolutely everything they do otherwise you're a traitor. And never speak of it again, your opinions are over. That's how it works, right Murph?"

You said: "You are correct. That is how it works."

I read what I read.

Any dissent is fine, within the limits of the Law. This is a country with freedom of conscience, despite the efforts and nationalist wailings of the Tory/Brexit thought Police.

[biggbn]

Kim Leadbeater seems like a decent sort, hope she does well and is not ground down by the system.

[bitchstewie]

chrispmartha said:

It is a stshow, weve had intimidation from all 3 main parties, Lawrence Fox sticking his oar in for no otger reason than to create discourse, the whole campaigns centred on Batley leaving other constituents feeling left out/disenfranchised but to be honest i just think politics in general is totally toxic at the moment and it just manifests itself in things like this by election.

I think this was the conservatives only real chance of taking control of the area but we saw activists being rude and disrespectful on social media to potential voters, on the flip side we’ve seen labour activists outside schools and harassing people.

I did laugh yesterday when i saw some UKIP campaigners driving round in a van with a megaphone, I mean what exactly is the point if them after the brexit vote?

I wish binface/buckethead would have stood as they would have been the most sensible out of the lot of them.

I don't get how it turns that toxic though is it the area or something else?

I don't want to assume Kim Leadbetter should have been a shoe-in because of the tragedy of her sister but from an outsiders perspective it looked like a historically Labour constituency putting forward someone with a local background who seemed sensible (literally haven't looked/read beyond headlines) and next thing you know the campaign is dirty as fk and all about Kashmir and Palestine with Fox and Galloway and co sticking their oars in.

Whatever direction you look in the whole thing seems hijacked.

[Johnnytheboy]

bhstewie said:

I don't get how it turns that toxic though is it the area or something else?

We are on a slippery slope to people voting based on identity rather than values/opinions.

[chrispmartha]

bhstewie said:

I don't get how it turns that toxic though is it the area or something else?

I don't want to assume Kim Leadbetter should have been a shoe-in because of the tragedy of her sister but from an outsiders perspective it looked like a historically Labour constituency putting forward someone with a local background who seemed sensible (literally haven't looked/read beyond headlines) and next thing you know the campaign is dirty as fk and all about Kashmir and Palestine with Fox and Galloway and co sticking their oars in.

Whatever direction you look in the whole thing seems hijacked.

Im not sure 100% what the issue is, Kim Leadbetter should have been a shoe in, not just because of her sister as you say but, knows the area and its issues well, seems a decent person, labour stronghold but as you say the whole thing seems to have been hijacked.

Galloway has added nothing to this area other than stoking up more divisions, same with Lawrence fox - thankfully his free speech rally was a damp squib.

Politics in this country has just become more and more toxic, it’s awful IMHO