Tiananmen Square - what do the Chinese think?

[Gecko1978]

BOR said:

I work directly with a lot of chinese colleagues, who are normally based in China, but also often travel to Europe, so should be able to access information whilst here, even if censored in China.

I never ask. It would be putting them in an awkward position. They might not give a st.

Imagine a chinese asking an english about the british army shooting unarmed protesters in the back on Bloody Sunday for example?

Not only do most british not give two sts, they actively believe the killers should not face prosecution.

I doubt it's much different throughout the world if you are not directly involved.

If I was asked about bloody sunday I would not know much about it but would open up google an be free to talk about it in a pub. The same is not true of events in China. So no its not the same at all

[LordLoveLength]

One of the 3 ‘T’s that you don’t mention

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Three_Ts

[A Winner Is You]

Johnnytheboy said:

Exige77 said:

While the CCP can continue to deliver improvements in living standard, they will prosper. The complete control of daily life by the CCP is accepted by most as it keeps the money coming in.

Twas ever thus with totalitarian regimes. When the wheels fall off the economy, the state only has violence left as a tool of coercion.

Although in this instance, we have a regime that the rest of the world is falling over itself to appease. John Cena is the latest one to issue a grovelling apology after accidentally suggesting Taiwan is a country, since he wouldn't want his movies to do badly in China.

[Exige77]

A Winner Is You said:

Johnnytheboy said:

Exige77 said:

While the CCP can continue to deliver improvements in living standard, they will prosper. The complete control of daily life by the CCP is accepted by most as it keeps the money coming in.

Twas ever thus with totalitarian regimes. When the wheels fall off the economy, the state only has violence left as a tool of coercion.

Although in this instance, we have a regime that the rest of the world is falling over itself to appease. John Cena is the latest one to issue a grovelling apology after accidentally suggesting Taiwan is a country, since he wouldn't want his movies to do badly in China.

It’s the West’s choice.

CCP flourishes because we let it.

While we all continue to buy Chinese made stuff, the CCP will continue to get stronger and stronger.

If there was a strong anti Chinese sentiment among consumers, the big brands and retailers would soon move out of China.

Sadly, consumers are addicted to cheap tat from China. Even the Covid shenanigans has not put many people off.

[A Winner Is You]

Exige77 said:

A Winner Is You said:

Johnnytheboy said:

Exige77 said:

While the CCP can continue to deliver improvements in living standard, they will prosper. The complete control of daily life by the CCP is accepted by most as it keeps the money coming in.

Twas ever thus with totalitarian regimes. When the wheels fall off the economy, the state only has violence left as a tool of coercion.

Although in this instance, we have a regime that the rest of the world is falling over itself to appease. John Cena is the latest one to issue a grovelling apology after accidentally suggesting Taiwan is a country, since he wouldn't want his movies to do badly in China.

It’s the West’s choice.

CCP flourishes because we let it.

While we all continue to buy Chinese made stuff, the CCP will continue to get stronger and stronger.

If there was a strong anti Chinese sentiment among consumers, the big brands and retailers would soon move out of China.

Sadly, consumers are addicted to cheap tat from China. Even the Covid shenanigans has not put many people off.

True, but it's also companies wanting to move into the market. Hence the ultra-progressive Google helping to make tools for state oppression, or Disney hiding black actors on its posters so as not to upset local sensibilities.

[TwigtheWonderkid]

GroundZero said:

Regarding Hong Kong, the average mainland Chinese would naturally view this as a historic harm that China endured at the hands of western invading powers. The fact that China were forced to sign a treaty to hand over control of Hong Kong and Macau to the europeans is something that has been portrayed as a sore point in history for them (and arguably rightly so).

I don't think there's much argument about it. basically, we got HK as compensation because of all the trouble China had caused in their efforts to stop us flooding their country with opium.

Not many people are aware that in the first "war on drugs", the British were very much on the side of drugs. You could argue that it was the most shameful episode in our history, and boy, there's plenty of competition. With the slave trade, you could argue that due to the morals and attitudes of the day, those involved didn't actually know they were doing anything wrong, because they never considered that black Africans were human beings on the same level as white Europeans. But with the drug trade into China, we knew at the time what we were doing was wrong, but did it anyway, because we didn't want a balance of trade deficit with China, as were were buying loads of tea and silk, but we didn't have anything their people wanted, other than Class 1 narcotics. We knew were would be killing tens of thousands of people, and just didn't give a monkey's toss.

[Hugo Stiglitz]

Whilst cycling in the Peak this week I bumped into a bloody fast lad. Recently came over due to Boris's visas. He was part of the democracy protests and got out just before his arrest.

We need more like him, Agnes and Joshua here.

Whereas my sister in law is mainland Chinese and tells me not to believe the western media lies.....

[200bhp]

About 10 years ago I worked for a UK company and travelled to China half a dozen times a year for 3-4 years. On one of the final trips I got chatting to our Chinese translator about the brewing South China Seas issues and her response was quite startling.

She said that it would be good to have a war to show the world that China was powerful and couldn't be pushed around be Western countries.

I asked if she'd still think the same if her teenage son and husband were called-up to fight and got killed - She said "I would not mind because they would have died fighting for China"

[Chimune]

Gecko1978 said:

BOR said:

I work directly with a lot of chinese colleagues, who are normally based in China, but also often travel to Europe, so should be able to access information whilst here, even if censored in China.

I never ask. It would be putting them in an awkward position. They might not give a st.

Imagine a chinese asking an english about the british army shooting unarmed protesters in the back on Bloody Sunday for example?

Not only do most british not give two sts, they actively believe the killers should not face prosecution.

I doubt it's much different throughout the world if you are not directly involved.

If I was asked about bloody sunday I would not know much about it but would open up google an be free to talk about it in a pub. The same is not true of events in China. So no its not the same at all

If I was visiting either North or Rep Ireland, was in a pub and someone asked me - as an obvious englishman, what I thought about Bloody Sunday or any other aspects of the troubles, I'd feign ignorance and change the subject pdq too!

[Andeh1]

Very interesting thread! I know from a business point of view, the Chinese relish the "status symbol" of owning a British product.

My time at JLR several years ago, the massive surge for JLR was very much off China. We could make something like 20% more profit selling the same range rover in China then Europe because "status" and "British" (even with ludicrous taxes applied to them out there).

They would spend more to import a disco sport or evoque from England then buy the locally produced equivalent.

I presume little has changed & Jlr's latest profits are because China reopened and Jlr stuff flooded back in.

If you were a contractor at JLR (as I was), and your job, mortgage, family depended on Jlr doing well... But Jlr doing well was so reliant on China growing.... Its a tricky situation. Big China growth, I got my contract renewed with a boost. China fell through the floor, I found another job!

[Pit Pony]

Ayahuasca said:

Isn’t it a basic tenet of politics that the masses are not interested in revolution when they are kept fed and entertained?

Ancient Rome - bread and circuses

China - higher living standard and tic toc

Wage slaves to the hire purchase agreement.

[Pit Pony]

Andeh1 said:

If you were a contractor at JLR (as I was), and your job, mortgage, family depended on Jlr doing well... But Jlr doing well was so reliant on China growing.... Its a tricky situation.

My teenage self would hate me. Working as a contractor, in the defence industry, a small cog in the machine that makes things that are designed to threaten other nations.

[Condi]

Exige77 said:

It’s the West’s choice.

CCP flourishes because we let it.

While we all continue to buy Chinese made stuff, the CCP will continue to get stronger and stronger.

If there was a strong anti Chinese sentiment among consumers, the big brands and retailers would soon move out of China.

Sadly, consumers are addicted to cheap tat from China. Even the Covid shenanigans has not put many people off.

This is what I struggle to understand.

On the one hand, it is obvious that China is committing abhorrent human rights abuses, has a control over it's people which most Western countries would never be allowed to do, and is at the same time increasing it's military muscle to threaten neighboring countries.

And yet, on the other, the capitalist economies struggle to look further than the cheap goods they can manufacture, even though it is very obvious that the income from these goods is used to support the very same human rights abuses and military buildup which we stand against.

Feels a lot like the West has bought itself into a problem, and unless we reduce our dependence on Chinese manufacturing then they will start to deploy their muscle in ways which we may not like. Ironically China have done better from Covid than most of the West, because while we shut down our economies and needed goods to fight the virus, China was happy to produce and supply them, at a cost, of course.

[craigjm]

That’s the whole issue with capitalism though. Production will always go to the cheapest place and morals can be put aside. Many years ago you couldn’t pick up a product without it being made in Taiwan or Hong Kong and now it’s China. Tomorrow it will be somewhere else as standards rise in China and prices rise.

Any attempt to say boycott Chinese goods won’t worth either because of the complicated supply chain of many products. Easy to boycott something assembled in China. Not so easy to boycott stuff with any Chinese involvement otherwise we would all be throwing away every electronic device we have

[skyrover]

I think people look at China and mistakenly try to apply western thinking.

A few basic things to consider imo:

China is recently rich, the people have little history of personal wealth
China is authoritarian, the people have little history of democratic representative government
China is corrupt, the people consider it normal to get rich without morality
Ancient Chinese culture was essentially obliterated by the CCP. The current culture is young and has a short memory.
China, like other Asian countries have a strong " face" mentality and collective mindset.
China is growing stronger. Don't underestimate the hubris and nationalism of the younger generation.

[Exige77]

Condi said:

Exige77 said:

It’s the West’s choice.

CCP flourishes because we let it.

While we all continue to buy Chinese made stuff, the CCP will continue to get stronger and stronger.

If there was a strong anti Chinese sentiment among consumers, the big brands and retailers would soon move out of China.

Sadly, consumers are addicted to cheap tat from China. Even the Covid shenanigans has not put many people off.

This is what I struggle to understand.

On the one hand, it is obvious that China is committing abhorrent human rights abuses, has a control over it's people which most Western countries would never be allowed to do, and is at the same time increasing it's military muscle to threaten neighboring countries.

And yet, on the other, the capitalist economies struggle to look further than the cheap goods they can manufacture, even though it is very obvious that the income from these goods is used to support the very same human rights abuses and military buildup which we stand against.

Feels a lot like the West has bought itself into a problem, and unless we reduce our dependence on Chinese manufacturing then they will start to deploy their muscle in ways which we may not like. Ironically China have done better from Covid than most of the West, because while we shut down our economies and needed goods to fight the virus, China was happy to produce and supply them, at a cost, of course.

^^^^^This.

We can still enjoy cheaper goods by distributing the supply chains between the many cheap labour countries.

Buying cheap from China looks appealing in the short term but we are setting ourselves up for a world of pain down the road.

There’s nothing wrong with a nation doing well, but when that nation is a totalitarian dictatorship with no respect for international law, Human rights or intellectual property it won’t end well.

[Abdul Abulbul Amir]

Ayahuasca said:

Isn’t it a basic tenet of politics that the masses are not interested in revolution when they are kept fed and entertained?

Ancient Rome - bread and circuses

China - higher living standard and tic toc

Yup

EU - Free Movement and Erasmus