Are Universities now just woke nurseries.

[turbobloke]

Countdown said:

ATG said:

brake fader said:

It seems since Blair said Education x 3 we have had a watered down system producing nothing but snowkflakes and activists .

Back on planet Earth, our universities have also produced lots of engineers, teachers, nurses, lawyers, journos, accountants, etc, etc, and loads of research. So the answer to your question is no, they're not just woke nurseries, they're educational and research institutions just like they've always been.

We have to remember - the way kids turn out is the fault of lefties - whether that's Lefties in schools, colleges, or Universities. It's never the parent's fault.....

By the time they're at university they're bathing in a new culture, not mommy's milk. AFAICS the thread isn't about academic subjects, at least thost that remain within the beckhamology and flower arranging, it's about the culture and what 3+ years immersion produces.

Did somebody mention lefties? Eight in ten British university lecturers are left-wing, survey finds. Even worse than schools (~65%).

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/2017/03/02/e...

If anything, it's got worse since then.

[FiF]

Polite M135 driver said:

FiF said:

Polite M135 driver said:

or (sadly) admin crap.

Demeans the rest of the post frankly.

Every job has some administration elements. Even if it's just claiming justifiable expenses and goodness knows how difficult and time consuming that can be engineered by accounts. Again there are some admin tasks that seem pointless, probably originating from OfS or similar but that's another argument.

Too many academics seem to consider themselves above administration tasks, or in worst cases, even lowering themselves to deal with the staff employed to do those tasks but who need some input from much more highly paid academics. Sometimes the most minor of input is held up because someone considers themselves too important to answer a simple question. Yet that same individual is sometimes very disrespectful and quick to pass the buck when their original lack of engagement causes a bigger issue that comes to the attention of senior management and the ProVC office then questions why attention to a particular question has not been given.

I'm sure it doesn't apply to the poster in question, but universities, like any other multi million pound businesses do generate admin tasks the purposes of which are not directly seen to be core to an individual's activity. That's how it is, as consuming of time as it can be I always found it best to get it out of the way and then move on with a clear conscience and mind, plus no disruption from reminders or excessive spells spent catching up.

FiF, I sort of take your point, some admin is necessary. My choice of words reflects my disdain for the tasks rather than the people involved in them, though.

I actually do consider academics not above, but rather worth insulating from as many admin tasks as can possibly be done, because it’s not the best use of their time. If you are hiring individuals in any organisation, you want them focused where they can best contribute. It is just not the best use of resource to use Prof BigBrain to collate marks on a spreadsheet, or do some obscure accounting related thing, or for example. She or he should be teaching or researching. Just like you don’t have pilots cleaning the plane after it lands, or whatever.

However, what I agree that absolutely doesn’t justify is Prof BigBrain behaving unprofessionally rudely or inconsiderately or uncollegially to people in non-academic specialist roles. And I think you are right there is a bit of tendency towards this intellectual/academic snobbishness. Prof BigBrain might be the world’s foremost expert in the lesser spotted brown toe-slug, but Prof BigBrain also needs to recognise that the professional staff around them are experts in their own areas and respect that, recognise their judgement, and respond to them when they need input for their job. Any mature/sane academic will recognise the work of their group just wouldn’t happen without a whole cohort of professional specialists to support it.

Responsiveness, though, is an interesting issue because constant availability (and constant PH posting) is quite corrupting to academic work, which really does need (as I think you know) uninterrupted focus and long stretches of time where you can just, almost aimlessly, ponder. I think in the future universities who get this right - can best structure their organisations to make those crucial but non-core tasks you mention as minimally interrupting as possible - will be the ones who best prosper. I think cultures of responsiveness (back and forth email exchanges, expectation that you reply in e.g. 24 hours) are corruptive for the hardest intellectual tasks.

Now it’s sounding like I think universities should extend their nursery role to the academics they, er, ‘look after’. I’ve always felt at home in ‘institutions’ anyway.

I suspect we're pretty much on the same page here. As with so many things it's a question of balance, each has a cooperative role to play, and as long as no particular cohort dominates to excess then the wheels turn more smoothly.

The responsiveness and interruption to thinking time issue is a good point. Increasingly I found students were looking for, nay demanding, almost 24/7 responses, "Ref email on dd/mm ( a late Saturday afternoon) when can I get an answer? This is not acceptable! (9:30am Monday)" as but one RL example from an undergrad. Unfortunately the admin staff face these sort of things daily, yet hear that some replies take literally months of cajoling. You know it gets bad when get approached along the lines of "I know this isn't really your area but as you're handy can you just..." type of request.

Equally it's definitely not all the academic side at fault. Some of the professional staff who are experts in their own field are rather poor at demonstrating that expertise and clearly communicating information to those who are not expert in that area. Guess it's also could be considered a different facet of the art of teaching.

[BigMon]

turbobloke said:

Countdown said:

ATG said:

brake fader said:

It seems since Blair said Education x 3 we have had a watered down system producing nothing but snowkflakes and activists .

Back on planet Earth, our universities have also produced lots of engineers, teachers, nurses, lawyers, journos, accountants, etc, etc, and loads of research. So the answer to your question is no, they're not just woke nurseries, they're educational and research institutions just like they've always been.

We have to remember - the way kids turn out is the fault of lefties - whether that's Lefties in schools, colleges, or Universities. It's never the parent's fault.....

By the time they're at university they're bathing in a new culture, not mommy's milk. AFAICS the thread isn't about academic subjects, at least thost that remain within the beckhamology and flower arranging, it's about the culture and what 3+ years immersion produces.

Did somebody mention lefties? Eight in ten British university lecturers are left-wing, survey finds. Even worse than schools (~65%).

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/2017/03/02/e...

If anything, it's got worse since then.

How big was that survey? And how do you know 'it's got worse since then'? Also, are students not capable of independent thought?

All I remember from my university days was a priority of how many £1 pints you could get down you at the student union. Also, and this may seem odd to some here, I can't remember a single left wing inspired lecture during my Computing degree.

Meanwhile, a local council I worked at from 2002-2008 had students every year while I was there for work experience to get the sandwich part of their degree. None of them were woke snowflakes spouting leftist dogma in fact, and again this will stun some on here, they very much seemed to share my experiences of university ten years before them.

Edited by BigMon on Saturday 12th June 11:25

[Teddy Lop]

Electro1980 said:

You mean people complaining they are not allowed to be racist.

This sentiment perfectly summarises the problem at the heart of this and much more, the inability to think critically about your own beliefs and the arguement being presented and accommodate differing beliefs as being a vital component of a free society, and instead having this specter representing all thats vile image that one attaches to anyone who deviates from the correct opinion on any topic. While this exists on both left and right the left are far more susceptible to it because of the herd mentality - it affects those who should exhibit the intelligence to know better. (Don't worry kiddies the right have their traps too) I've known lefties who suffer from this all my life but it does seem much more prevalent today, many think it's an effect of social media. I guess the universities simply *have* to be the most progressive, so if such attitudes are more prevalent in society (which with the uptick in university education they will be) then the universities have to go even more extreme to maintain its position relative to mainstream.

88% of people are considered to be of centrist position ie not radical/extremist ends of left/right, and this 88% have far more in common with each other and what they want from life than they do with said extremists. Calling anyone who arrives at the apparent right-wing conclusion a racist is itself bigotry, it is akin to me the non-believer considering a Muslim man completely fundamentally incompatible for his beliefs, whereas the truth is he just wants the best life possible for himself and those important to him, he has a different aspect in one regard to achieving that, but for the most part he's exactly like me.

[turbobloke]

BigMon said:

turbobloke said:

Countdown said:

ATG said:

brake fader said:

It seems since Blair said Education x 3 we have had a watered down system producing nothing but snowkflakes and activists .

Back on planet Earth, our universities have also produced lots of engineers, teachers, nurses, lawyers, journos, accountants, etc, etc, and loads of research. So the answer to your question is no, they're not just woke nurseries, they're educational and research institutions just like they've always been.

We have to remember - the way kids turn out is the fault of lefties - whether that's Lefties in schools, colleges, or Universities. It's never the parent's fault.....

By the time they're at university they're bathing in a new culture, not mommy's milk. AFAICS the thread isn't about academic subjects, at least thost that remain within the beckhamology and flower arranging, it's about the culture and what 3+ years immersion produces.

Did somebody mention lefties? Eight in ten British university lecturers are left-wing, survey finds. Even worse than schools (~65%).

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/2017/03/02/e...

If anything, it's got worse since then.

How big was that survey? And how do you know 'it's got worse since then'? Also, are students not capable of independent thought? <snip>

How I know - direct experience over a similar period of time involving three universities, which aligns with the survey's findings.

As to the survey, see if you can dig it out from the info provided, I don't have a current URL. The conclusions around this 80% and growing left-wing domination of HE were:
-the percentage has been steadily rising since the 60s
-not due to intelligence but to openness/experience issues
-HE settings embody too little diversity of viewpoint
-dysfunctional atmosphere where key assumptions go unquestioned
-dissenting opinions are infrequent, free speech curtailed
-ideological homogeneity within academia has numerous adverse consequences
(including systematic biases in scholarship)

The issue for this thread relates to students facing a socially challenging new environment, and while thinking doesn't stop, there's a natural tendency to try to avoid disapproval. Being immersed in an unhealthy 80% politically skewed environment, approval is far too much of a one-way street. As detailed above.

[Not-The-Messiah]

Exige77 said:

bristolracer said:

Always been the same.
Universities and the students Union have always whinged about the grown up world

Until they grow up themselves and see what bks they where spouting.

The problem is they don't grow up these days they don't need to.

[Countdown]

Teddy Lop said:

88% of people are considered to be of centrist position ie not radical/extremist ends of left/right, and this 88% have far more in common with each other and what they want from life than they do with said extremists. Calling anyone who arrives at the apparent right-wing conclusion a racist is itself bigotry, it is akin to me the non-believer considering a Muslim man completely fundamentally incompatible for his beliefs, whereas the truth is he just wants the best life possible for himself and those important to him, he has a different aspect in one regard to achieving that, but for the most part he's exactly like me.

Taking your 88% centrist figure - why would you consider University students to be any different?

[Teddy Lop]

Countdown said:

Teddy Lop said:

88% of people are considered to be of centrist position ie not radical/extremist ends of left/right, and this 88% have far more in common with each other and what they want from life than they do with said extremists. Calling anyone who arrives at the apparent right-wing conclusion a racist is itself bigotry, it is akin to me the non-believer considering a Muslim man completely fundamentally incompatible for his beliefs, whereas the truth is he just wants the best life possible for himself and those important to him, he has a different aspect in one regard to achieving that, but for the most part he's exactly like me.

Taking your 88% centrist figure - why would you consider University students to be any different?

Sorry not sure I understand your question. What difference did I attach to university students, beyond typically outwardly lefty (although theres a lot that aren't that feel the environment demands they suppress but that's probably drifting to another discussion)

The 88% is widely used to describe people of centrist non radical position in society, the problem is that a lot of (certainly the more vocal) people don't seem to appreciate that they and the "other side" within that 88 are much more alike than different, not that a difference is a problem, it precisely isn't.

[chrispmartha]

brake fader said:

It seems since Blair said Education x 3 we have had a watered down system producing nothing but snowkflakes and activists .

Did you go to university?

If did, you’re not a good example of how much better students turned out in your day.

Edited by chrispmartha on Saturday 12th June 15:15

[Electro1980]

Teddy Lop said:

Electro1980 said:

You mean people complaining they are not allowed to be racist.

This sentiment perfectly summarises the problem at the heart of this and much more, the inability to think critically about your own beliefs and the arguement being presented and accommodate differing beliefs as being a vital component of a free society, and instead having this specter representing all thats vile image that one attaches to anyone who deviates from the correct opinion on any topic. While this exists on both left and right the left are far more susceptible to it because of the herd mentality - it affects those who should exhibit the intelligence to know better. (Don't worry kiddies the right have their traps too) I've known lefties who suffer from this all my life but it does seem much more prevalent today, many think it's an effect of social media. I guess the universities simply *have* to be the most progressive, so if such attitudes are more prevalent in society (which with the uptick in university education they will be) then the universities have to go even more extreme to maintain its position relative to mainstream.

88% of people are considered to be of centrist position ie not radical/extremist ends of left/right, and this 88% have far more in common with each other and what they want from life than they do with said extremists. Calling anyone who arrives at the apparent right-wing conclusion a racist is itself bigotry, it is akin to me the non-believer considering a Muslim man completely fundamentally incompatible for his beliefs, whereas the truth is he just wants the best life possible for himself and those important to him, he has a different aspect in one regard to achieving that, but for the most part he's exactly like me.

Your reading an awful lot in too 11 words. Are you claiming that the far right do not hide behind free speech?

[Electro1980]

BigMon said:

turbobloke said:

Countdown said:

ATG said:

brake fader said:

It seems since Blair said Education x 3 we have had a watered down system producing nothing but snowkflakes and activists .

Back on planet Earth, our universities have also produced lots of engineers, teachers, nurses, lawyers, journos, accountants, etc, etc, and loads of research. So the answer to your question is no, they're not just woke nurseries, they're educational and research institutions just like they've always been.

We have to remember - the way kids turn out is the fault of lefties - whether that's Lefties in schools, colleges, or Universities. It's never the parent's fault.....

By the time they're at university they're bathing in a new culture, not mommy's milk. AFAICS the thread isn't about academic subjects, at least thost that remain within the beckhamology and flower arranging, it's about the culture and what 3+ years immersion produces.

Did somebody mention lefties? Eight in ten British university lecturers are left-wing, survey finds. Even worse than schools (~65%).

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/2017/03/02/e...

If anything, it's got worse since then.

How big was that survey? And how do you know 'it's got worse since then'? Also, are students not capable of independent thought?

All I remember from my university days was a priority of how many £1 pints you could get down you at the student union. Also, and this may seem odd to some here, I can't remember a single left wing inspired lecture during my Computing degree.

Meanwhile, a local council I worked at from 2002-2008 had students every year while I was there for work experience to get the sandwich part of their degree. None of them were woke snowflakes spouting leftist dogma in fact, and again this will stun some on here, they very much seemed to share my experiences of university ten years before them.

Edited by BigMon on Saturday 12th June 11:25

I would also ask, what is the definition of “left wing” used in that survey? Given that there is a strong link between education and liberal beliefs, and academia is (relatively) low paid and done for social benefit, it’s hardly a surprise that academics are a little more left leaning than average.

[Teddy Lop]

Electro1980 said:

Teddy Lop said:

Electro1980 said:

You mean people complaining they are not allowed to be racist.

This sentiment perfectly summarises the problem at the heart of this and much more, the inability to think critically about your own beliefs and the arguement being presented and accommodate differing beliefs as being a vital component of a free society, and instead having this specter representing all thats vile image that one attaches to anyone who deviates from the correct opinion on any topic. While this exists on both left and right the left are far more susceptible to it because of the herd mentality - it affects those who should exhibit the intelligence to know better. (Don't worry kiddies the right have their traps too) I've known lefties who suffer from this all my life but it does seem much more prevalent today, many think it's an effect of social media. I guess the universities simply *have* to be the most progressive, so if such attitudes are more prevalent in society (which with the uptick in university education they will be) then the universities have to go even more extreme to maintain its position relative to mainstream.

88% of people are considered to be of centrist position ie not radical/extremist ends of left/right, and this 88% have far more in common with each other and what they want from life than they do with said extremists. Calling anyone who arrives at the apparent right-wing conclusion a racist is itself bigotry, it is akin to me the non-believer considering a Muslim man completely fundamentally incompatible for his beliefs, whereas the truth is he just wants the best life possible for himself and those important to him, he has a different aspect in one regard to achieving that, but for the most part he's exactly like me.

Your reading an awful lot in too 11 words. Are you claiming that the far right do not hide behind free speech?

Your second sentence highlights a bit of hypocrisy in the first no?

Where have I made any claims about what the far-right do?

The hiding I see most apparent, is the inability to correctly observe 45% of the population and instead hiding them behind an idiot 5%

FWIW I have no doubt all sorts of nasty people exploit the ideals of free speech; I don't think that free speech is the cause or its curtailment the solution though. Every tyrant of both the right and left has restricted free speech to the bits they approve of.

[BigMon]

Electro1980 said:

I would also ask, what is the definition of “left wing” used in that survey? Given that there is a strong link between education and liberal beliefs, and academia is (relatively) low paid and done for social benefit, it’s hardly a surprise that academics are a little more left leaning than average.

Indeed.

Plus, as a generalisation, I would say perhaps people are more inclined to be more left wing and idealistic in their beliefs when younger. I certainly was.

Regardless, whether universities are hotbeds of Marxist ideology or not it's not doing the present day Labour party much good is it.

[robsa]

Polite M135 driver said:

This is a common claim of people on the political right at the moment, but it basically never happens. In fact, the latest government policy around this was based on and indeed the government cited a report from a think tank that cited an example - in fact, their main example and I think also perhaps even the only example they had - of deplatforming that actually never even happened. The report claimed that Germaine Greer was deplatformed at (I think) Swansea university. The talk actually went ahead.

I mean, wasn't Amber Rudd de-platformed? And that Sargon of Akkad guy? Karl something? And Jordan Peterson? To the best of my knowledge none of them are fascists.

[coppernorks]

Maybe worse now but stoodents have always been short on buying their own fags but long
on protesting about how the world would be a better place if we all embraced marxism.

They soon grow out of the urge for fairer wealth distribution when the local chavs drive better cars than them.

[turbobloke]

robsa said:

Polite M135 driver said:

This is a common claim of people on the political right at the moment, but it basically never happens. In fact, the latest government policy around this was based on and indeed the government cited a report from a think tank that cited an example - in fact, their main example and I think also perhaps even the only example they had - of deplatforming that actually never even happened. The report claimed that Germaine Greer was deplatformed at (I think) Swansea university. The talk actually went ahead.

I mean, wasn't Amber Rudd de-platformed? And that Sargon of Akkad guy? Karl something? And Jordan Peterson? To the best of my knowledge none of them are fascists.

The point is the deplatforming, not who gets targeted.

Likewise if university lecturers were 80% or more right-wing it would be equally bad, unrepresentative, stifling, groupthink.

Edited by turbobloke on Saturday 12th June 18:05

[Countdown]

Teddy Lop said:

Sorry not sure I understand your question. What difference did I attach to university students, beyond typically outwardly lefty (although theres a lot that aren't that feel the environment demands they suppress but that's probably drifting to another discussion)

The 88% is widely used to describe people of centrist non radical position in society, the problem is that a lot of (certainly the more vocal) people don't seem to appreciate that they and the "other side" within that 88 are much more alike than different, not that a difference is a problem, it precisely isn't.

If you consider 88% of the general population to be centrist then (in the context of this thread) why should the student population be any different? I.e surely it makes sense for 88% of the student population to be centrist as well....?

[Teddy Lop]

Countdown said:

Teddy Lop said:

Sorry not sure I understand your question. What difference did I attach to university students, beyond typically outwardly lefty (although theres a lot that aren't that feel the environment demands they suppress but that's probably drifting to another discussion)

The 88% is widely used to describe people of centrist non radical position in society, the problem is that a lot of (certainly the more vocal) people don't seem to appreciate that they and the "other side" within that 88 are much more alike than different, not that a difference is a problem, it precisely isn't.

If you consider 88% of the general population to be centrist then (in the context of this thread) why should the student population be any different? I.e surely it makes sense for 88% of the student population to be centrist as well....?

Probably. I'm still not sure how it relates to my comments though?

[Countdown]

Teddy Lop said:

Probably. I'm still not sure how it relates to my comments though?

It was in relation to you suggesting Electro wasn't capable of critical thinking. I'll try to explain

You suggest (and I don't disagree) that 88% of people are generally centrist, and you probably agree that also applies to students. yet you state that "typically outwardly lefty (although theres a lot that aren't that feel the environment demands they suppress but that's probably drifting to another discussion)" which is just nonsensical, from a "critical thinking" aspect.

Why would a centrist student want to appear outwardly lefty?
Why is it only the "centrist students who want to appear lefty" that aren't suppressing their views whilst other centrist students (who presumably don't want to appear outwardly lefty or outwardly righty or even outwardly centrist) ARE suppressing their views?

Not only is it nonsensical, it contradicts the OP's assertion - that Universities are some kind of hotbeds for lefty-breeding.

[Dagnir]

Countdown said:

If you consider 88% of the general population to be centrist then (in the context of this thread) why should the student population be any different? I.e surely it makes sense for 88% of the student population to be centrist as well....?

They're completely different age range and demographic.

What a strange and short-sighted thing to say.