Are Universities now just woke nurseries.

[valiant]

brake fader said:

It seems since Blair said Education x 3 we have had a watered down system producing nothing but snowkflakes and activists .

I blame the parents.

[Polite M135 driver]

Dynion Araf Uchaf said:

I love the optimism. In reality however all but the very best university’s are cynical businesses cashing in on the belief of a better life for those that attend and portraying an image of party time for the rest. The reality is that it is quite different to how it was, with targets and attendance thresholds making it way less enlightened than they once were

Yes, you are right, my conception of this is limited to let’s say the ‘better’ universities. I think the situation is very very different in some institutions. I’m lucky to be at one where I think that I wrote can at least be described as a not-totally-unreasonable description of some of what goes on here. We do also unfortunately have aspects of the money grabbing (we do it because governments have legislated that this is how we now operate) and the ‘churning out degrees’ aspects too.

There is also a degree less enlightenment that there used to be, I think, due to the current agenda of ‘impact’ and how we are tasked to demonstrate that what we’re doing has impact on society. Obviously, this is essential. Universities are publicly funded, so what we do needs to benefit society. But the very reason for having universities in the first place is so that you have a store of knowledge and expertise and experts who know about stuff that you don’t know is useful yet. We’ve seen anew this past year and a bit how many surprises our life/civilisation generates. We can’t predict what we’ll need to know in 1 year’s time, 5 years’ time, 100 years’ time.

One thing that universities can do, that business can’t, is take a long view on the usefulness or utility of certain kinds of knowledge or expertise. So to an extent, we just need to accept that the positive impact on society of some of their activities is not going to be possible to immediately discern. Paying for universities is like buying a lottery ticket: your odds of winning may be low, but often when you do, you win big (MRI, relativity, molecular biology, etc. etc.).

Anyway, back to marking…

[Polite M135 driver]

ReallyReallyGood said:

Polite M135 driver said:

This is a common claim of people on the political right at the moment, but it basically never happens. In fact, the latest government policy around this was based on and indeed the government cited a report from a think tank that cited an example - in fact, their main example and I think also perhaps even the only example they had - of deplatforming that actually never even happened. The report claimed that Germaine Greer was deplatformed at (I think) Swansea university. The talk actually went ahead.

Then why was this ( https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-57076093) needed?

The general view is that is was really not needed.

If you want to see or hear how neccessary it is, go and listen to the interview on the radio 4 today programme with the universities minister. She was completely unable to make any coherent argument for what it is for, and then fell into a transparently obvious trap where she ended up arguing that it was legislation that holocaust deniers could use to ensure their voices were heard.

Edited by Polite M135 driver on Friday 11th June 11:18

[Polite M135 driver]

Type R Tom said:

I don't know if this is true or just right wing propaganda but I do have concerns about things like white supremacy / privilege, critical race theory, patriarchy, some transgender issues etc being taught as fact instead of debated as an opinion.

I dont think any respectable scholar would teach anything like this as fact, in the same way that Marxism or conservatism or capitalism isn’t a fact. They are all just systems of thinking and organising things.

[Drumroll]

Type R Tom said:

I don't know if this is true or just right wing propaganda but I do have concerns about things like white supremacy / privilege, critical race theory, patriarchy, some transgender issues etc being taught as fact instead of debated as an opinion.

Is that your opinion or is it a fact?

Unless you have actually been to all universities in the last few years.

[jimbobs]

ReallyReallyGood said:

Then why was this ( https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-57076093) needed?

It was needed to provide the Tories with a bit more publicity for their ‘war on woke’ bks, and to get positive headlines in the Mail / Torygraph / Express…

[Supercilious Sid]

Polite M135 driver said:

ReallyReallyGood said:

Polite M135 driver said:

This is a common claim of people on the political right at the moment, but it basically never happens. In fact, the latest government policy around this was based on and indeed the government cited a report from a think tank that cited an example - in fact, their main example and I think also perhaps even the only example they had - of deplatforming that actually never even happened. The report claimed that Germaine Greer was deplatformed at (I think) Swansea university. The talk actually went ahead.

Then why was this ( https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-57076093) needed?

The general view is that is was really not needed.

Explain what this 'general view' is, who holds it, what qualifications do they have to arrive at it, and how you have found it out.

[citizensm1th]

Claptonian said:

brake fader said:

It seems since Blair said Education x 3 we have had a watered down system producing nothing but snowkflakes and activists .

The likes of ATG and Polite M135 driver have given good answers already, but you would really benefit from expanding your horizons somewhat. The above sounds like the rantings of a disgruntled and spectacularly poorly read old bloke, bemoaning the youth of today, exactly as people exactly like you have been doing for all of time. What a cliche.

I would recommend an excellent documentary on students and student life from the 80's,i think it was called the young ones.

[Type R Tom]

Drumroll said:

Type R Tom said:

I don't know if this is true or just right wing propaganda but I do have concerns about things like white supremacy / privilege, critical race theory, patriarchy, some transgender issues etc being taught as fact instead of debated as an opinion.

Is that your opinion or is it a fact?

Unless you have actually been to all universities in the last few years.

Hence why I said, "I don't know if this is true or just right wing propaganda" just I have heard stories from the US and as we often follow them I was wondering if it had crept into our uni

[mrporsche]

brake fader said:

It seems since Blair said Education x 3 we have had a watered down system producing nothing but snowkflakes and activists .

His push to have 50% university educated, came with no logic, it just sounded good to him.

It did however increase the amount of people going and most tend to leave with a left leaning slant so would increase the number of future labour voters.

[brake fader]

Claptonian said:

brake fader said:

It seems since Blair said Education x 3 we have had a watered down system producing nothing but snowkflakes and activists .

The likes of ATG and Polite M135 driver have given good answers already, but you would really benefit from expanding your horizons somewhat. The above sounds like the rantings of a disgruntled and spectacularly poorly read old bloke, bemoaning the youth of today, exactly as people exactly like you have been doing for all of time. What a cliche.

Now this is the typical retort of a distorted blinked red faced sweaty soap dodger, that cannot accept that the standards of education have been diminished tenfold over the years, no longer is it the brightest kids that go on merit but is filled with any numpty willing to pay the obscene fees.

[Polite M135 driver]

Supercilious Sid said:

Explain what this 'general view' is, who holds it, what qualifications do they have to arrive at it, and how you have found it out.

The general view from people in the university sector, who funnily enough are probably the best informed people about the state of freedom of speech in the university sector, which i have gathered from talking to people in the university sector and reading interviews with informed people in the university and legal sectors, is that there is no issues with freedom of speech in universities,.

I have also read opposing views, so that I am properly informed. The general right wing view is that it is becoming too ‘uncomfortable’ for people to voice views that dissent from the (perceived?) ‘majority’. I do not think, in a country that does embrace freedom of speech, that you can legislate in any sensible way to prevent people from being made to feel uncomfortable. This is why I think the legislation that was introduced is not only unnecessary (because there is no real problem) but actually would be flawed even if there were a problem.

Furthermore, when chunks of the core evidence cited by the government to justify the new legislation are demonstrated to be false/incorrectly reported, I think it is as reasonable argument that legislation is unjustified.

There is no issue with freedom of speech. I doubt there are many other sectors where the legal right of employees to say whatever they want is legally protected in their contract and in law. I could tomorrow go out and begin arguing that coronavirus makes you magnetic, and anyway it’s all made up isn’t it, here’s my proof. Or write a paper on my discovery that conservatives/socialism leads to premature ejaculation. I would not lose my job. My freedom to be a dick is contractually protected, of course so long as it isn’t discriminatory (and rightly so).

Edited by Polite M135 driver on Friday 11th June 11:34

[Castrol for a knave]

Meanwhile, on a university forum somewhere, there is a thread about Pistonheads being full of tragic middle aged blokes, who've drunk the Daily Mail Koolaid.

[aizvara]

brake fader said:

Now this is the typical retort of a distorted blinked red faced sweaty soap dodger, that cannot accept that the standards of education have been diminished tenfold over the years, no longer is it the brightest kids that go on merit but is filled with any numpty willing to pay the obscene fees.

As someone who has run an intern program for undergraduates, and worked alongside recent graduates most of the time in my career since I was one in the 90s, I don't think this is true. If anything the technical abilities of candidates we're getting is improving over time, and they all seem like well-rounded individuals too, and enthusiastic. Better in all ways than I was, anyway.

[Electro1980]

brake fader said:

Claptonian said:

brake fader said:

It seems since Blair said Education x 3 we have had a watered down system producing nothing but snowkflakes and activists .

The likes of ATG and Polite M135 driver have given good answers already, but you would really benefit from expanding your horizons somewhat. The above sounds like the rantings of a disgruntled and spectacularly poorly read old bloke, bemoaning the youth of today, exactly as people exactly like you have been doing for all of time. What a cliche.

Now this is the typical retort of a distorted blinked red faced sweaty soap dodger, that cannot accept that the standards of education have been diminished tenfold over the years*, no longer is it the brightest kids that go on merit but is filled with any numpty willing to pay the obscene fees.

• citation needed

You say this, yet most of the agitation and angry headlines come from the top institutions. You’re not getting much activism from DeMonford or University of Bedfordshire. Unless you think the standards of our top universities has diminished (which is demonstrably untrue).

[Drumroll]

brake fader said:

Claptonian said:

brake fader said:

It seems since Blair said Education x 3 we have had a watered down system producing nothing but snowkflakes and activists .

The likes of ATG and Polite M135 driver have given good answers already, but you would really benefit from expanding your horizons somewhat. The above sounds like the rantings of a disgruntled and spectacularly poorly read old bloke, bemoaning the youth of today, exactly as people exactly like you have been doing for all of time. What a cliche.

Now this is the typical retort of a distorted blinked red faced sweaty soap dodger, that cannot accept that the standards of education have been diminished tenfold over the years, no longer is it the brightest kids that go on merit but is filled with any numpty willing to pay the obscene fees.

I would suggest the blinked one here is you. Education like everything else (apart from maybe some posters on here) evolve. Now that doesn't always mean for the best, but if things don't evolve they eventually die out.

[JeffreyD]

brake fader said:

Now this is the typical retort of a distorted blinked red faced sweaty soap dodger, that cannot accept that the standards of education have been diminished tenfold over the years, no longer is it the brightest kids that go on merit but is filled with any numpty willing to pay the obscene fees.

What evidence do you have for this assertion?

[thewarlock]

aizvara said:

brake fader said:

Now this is the typical retort of a distorted blinked red faced sweaty soap dodger, that cannot accept that the standards of education have been diminished tenfold over the years, no longer is it the brightest kids that go on merit but is filled with any numpty willing to pay the obscene fees.

As someone who has run an intern program for undergraduates, and worked alongside recent graduates most of the time in my career since I was one in the 90s, I don't think this is true. If anything the technical abilities of candidates we're getting is improving over time, and they all seem like well-rounded individuals too, and enthusiastic. Better in all ways than I was, anyway.

Absolutely.

I left uni around 15 years ago. The grads working for me today are much better than me or my contemporaries were at the time.

Not only are is their engineering knowledge excellent, but they have better 'soft skills', and an idea of business operations and ethics. They mostly all come from the one course at one uni though.

[brake fader]

It's like Letting the local pub football team play for England because they deserve to have a go, but give up their beer tokens until they win something.

[JeffreyD]

brake fader said:

It's like Letting the local pub football team play for England because they deserve to have a go, but give up their beer tokens until they win something.

What is?