What would middle-class rebellion look like?
Discussion
How u doing said:
Gecko1978 said:
A middle class rebellion would (to work) to work have to be along the line of market forces. So example, say we wanted motorway speed limit to be 85, if every person in the UK said untill you up the limit we will not buy say a ford, and everyone stuck to that so destroying fords business in the UK costing jobs that would get government attention. Say you wanted NHS funding to be increased but only at the expense of foreign aid. Get everyone to suddenly boycott Tesco or close all their accounts at Lloyds by end of the month. You damage the goverment by damaging the economy it needs to survive. Refuse on mass to use public transport all drive to work. How long coulf TFL last with zero customers (seems at least a year).
This is the only way middle classes can rebel with spending power. A consolidated punishment of a big firm would hurt the government but be perfectly legal I assume.
Would anyone notice a middle class Tesco boycott? This is the only way middle classes can rebel with spending power. A consolidated punishment of a big firm would hurt the government but be perfectly legal I assume.
How u doing said:
Gecko1978 said:
A middle class rebellion would (to work) to work have to be along the line of market forces. So example, say we wanted motorway speed limit to be 85, if every person in the UK said untill you up the limit we will not buy say a ford, and everyone stuck to that so destroying fords business in the UK costing jobs that would get government attention. Say you wanted NHS funding to be increased but only at the expense of foreign aid. Get everyone to suddenly boycott Tesco or close all their accounts at Lloyds by end of the month. You damage the goverment by damaging the economy it needs to survive. Refuse on mass to use public transport all drive to work. How long coulf TFL last with zero customers (seems at least a year).
This is the only way middle classes can rebel with spending power. A consolidated punishment of a big firm would hurt the government but be perfectly legal I assume.
Would anyone notice a middle class Tesco boycott? This is the only way middle classes can rebel with spending power. A consolidated punishment of a big firm would hurt the government but be perfectly legal I assume.
MrMan001 said:
There's nothing for the middle classes in general to rebel against, the government gives them exactly what they want. Lockdowns so far have been very popular, otherwise the government wouldn't do it. See the more Republican parts of the US for an example, where the middle classes lean in a different political direction.
That’s not really true in the case of higher earners, who’ve been hit from several directions by this government.Rioting was dismissed as option early on in this thread but that's only because your average rioter doesn't have much of a stake in society so can generally be ignored. When people with mortgages and PCP car loans start lobbing bricks at the police then the Government has to take notice.
It doesn't happen very often, the poll tax riots were probably the last time but it worked and hastened the demise of the poll tax.
It doesn't happen very often, the poll tax riots were probably the last time but it worked and hastened the demise of the poll tax.
Kermit power said:
I'm sure you wouldn't disagree that a significant and increasing proportion of the population are losing all patience with this, so how do they respond?
Aren't the stats saying something like 71% DO support the extended lockdown?It's a numbers thing. For the "middle-class" to be rebelling a significant majority of the population would need to be dissatisfied with the way things were. Unhappiness starts from the ground up where people have the least to lose and feel furthest away from the levers of power. It will rise to include the so-called Middle classes if they also feel disenfranchised. How many revolutions in the history of mankind have been started by the rich?
If a revolution starts it won't be just those in the Middle.
Countdown said:
Kermit power said:
I'm sure you wouldn't disagree that a significant and increasing proportion of the population are losing all patience with this, so how do they respond?
Aren't the stats saying something like 71% DO support the extended lockdown?71% would rather spend anothe four weeks where we are than risk a 3rd wave and go into a full lockdown again.
It was a dumb thing for Boris to do (why break the habit of a lifetime) to put a date on it. Loosening restrictions should always be based on the current conditions, things like rate of infection, hospital bed availability, fatalities and the like rather than set at an arbitrary date.
Northernboy said:
That’s not really true in the case of higher earners, who’ve been hit from several directions by this government.
I'd suggest that the majority of what we call 'middle class' aren't high earners as such. I expect the majority of the middle class pay tax at the 20% rate? Earning more than £50k as an individual is fairly rare in the UK - 13.7% of taxpayers in 2017 if the BBC are to be believed.jurbie said:
Rioting was dismissed as option early on in this thread but that's only because your average rioter doesn't have much of a stake in society so can generally be ignored. When people with mortgages and PCP car loans start lobbing bricks at the police then the Government has to take notice.
It doesn't happen very often, the poll tax riots were probably the last time but it worked and hastened the demise of the poll tax.
In the end, it wasn’t the riots per se that caused the demise of the poll tax, it was all the people refusing to pay it and ending up in court and then clogging up the courts that did it.It doesn't happen very often, the poll tax riots were probably the last time but it worked and hastened the demise of the poll tax.
In the current situation, I am not sure what can be done to bring real pressure on government.
MrMan001 said:
I'd suggest that the majority of what we call 'middle class' aren't high earners as such. I expect the majority of the middle class pay tax at the 20% rate? Earning more than £50k as an individual is fairly rare in the UK - 13.7% of taxpayers in 2017 if the BBC are to be believed.
25% of all income tax paid is paid by the 1% of all tax payers and 90% of all income tax is paid by the top 50% of all tax payers Boringvolvodriver said:
jurbie said:
Rioting was dismissed as option early on in this thread but that's only because your average rioter doesn't have much of a stake in society so can generally be ignored. When people with mortgages and PCP car loans start lobbing bricks at the police then the Government has to take notice.
It doesn't happen very often, the poll tax riots were probably the last time but it worked and hastened the demise of the poll tax.
In the end, it wasn’t the riots per se that caused the demise of the poll tax, it was all the people refusing to pay it and ending up in court and then clogging up the courts that did it.It doesn't happen very often, the poll tax riots were probably the last time but it worked and hastened the demise of the poll tax.
In the current situation, I am not sure what can be done to bring real pressure on government.
slightlyoldgit said:
Not sure there - if several hundred thousand people or more decided not to fill in self assessments and pay up then things would grind to a halt pretty quickly. Plus if the thousands of times more people that didn't get prosecuted offered to pool fund anyone that did. Then I think you could cause a hell of an issue in the fundamentals of the tax collection from the middle class.
Don’t disagree with the theory, however, the issue is how likely is that to happen? Boringvolvodriver said:
slightlyoldgit said:
Not sure there - if several hundred thousand people or more decided not to fill in self assessments and pay up then things would grind to a halt pretty quickly. Plus if the thousands of times more people that didn't get prosecuted offered to pool fund anyone that did. Then I think you could cause a hell of an issue in the fundamentals of the tax collection from the middle class.
Don’t disagree with the theory, however, the issue is how likely is that to happen? slightlyoldgit said:
I don't think it is likely - but it is certainly possible and would be a massive movement and result in a huge power shift.
Yeah while unlikely it is possible. Other things could be work to rule in the state sector so teachers, etc, just work contracted hours no more, council workers the same etc, even if Dr and nurses did not the effect would be immediate. Also lets say everyone emailed there MP every day so an MPs mail box got 60k emails a day every day it would be like DoS attack but legal.Other things people could do on mass drive slowly everywhere. Policing is by consent(we say) so mass civil disobedience like 10mph on motorway slower would likely have a huge impact. In Thailand wearing a red t shirt is a sign of protest. If 30m people turned up to work tomorrow in say red an all school kids psychologically it would have an impact.
I think it would be possible to force GE but you would need literally 30 or 40 million people all saying the same thing.
oyster said:
Kermit power said:
We've all seen riots in the streets, be it here or elsewhere... They tend to draw a lot of attention, but at the risk of stereotyping the rioters, I think it's probably safe to say that those burning cars and looting shops probably don't as a rule own the cars in question, nor work in, supply or insure the shops.
So what happens when levels of dissatisfaction amongst those who do own the cars or the shops and work therein reaches a similar boiling point?
It increasingly looks like Boris and co are going to extend Covid restrictions beyond the 21st, and whether or not you personally believe that's a sensible, rational decision or utterly bonkers - and let's not discuss that on this thread, as there are plenty of others for that - I'm sure you wouldn't disagree that a significant and increasing proportion of the population are losing all patience with this, so how do they respond?
I would disagree. Not because I am now losing patience with it, but because I can see no evidence to show that is the case in the general public. Indeed on another thread today someone posted a Yougov poll showing 71% in favour of the 4-week delay. Bear in mind Yougov tends not to ask care home residents and the over 90s for their opinion, I suspect this figure under-represents the support. AND possibly even more so if you were to exclude those who may not or won't vote at a general election.So what happens when levels of dissatisfaction amongst those who do own the cars or the shops and work therein reaches a similar boiling point?
It increasingly looks like Boris and co are going to extend Covid restrictions beyond the 21st, and whether or not you personally believe that's a sensible, rational decision or utterly bonkers - and let's not discuss that on this thread, as there are plenty of others for that - I'm sure you wouldn't disagree that a significant and increasing proportion of the population are losing all patience with this, so how do they respond?
So the whole premise of your thread is undermined by making an assumption based on anecdotal evidence with no supporting collateral.
Having said that, I did check Yougoov's periodic survey on confidence in government handling of the pandemic before posting, which showed that said confidence in the UK had slipped from 62% at the start of May to 49% at the start of June. The mid-June figures should be published this week, so it will be interesting to see how the extension has changed that perspective.
Gecko1978 said:
A middle class rebellion would (to work) to work have to be along the line of market forces. So example, say we wanted motorway speed limit to be 85, if every person in the UK said untill you up the limit we will not buy say a ford, and everyone stuck to that so destroying fords business in the UK costing jobs that would get government attention. Say you wanted NHS funding to be increased but only at the expense of foreign aid. Get everyone to suddenly boycott Tesco or close all their accounts at Lloyds by end of the month. You damage the goverment by damaging the economy it needs to survive. Refuse on mass to use public transport all drive to work. How long coulf TFL last with zero customers (seems at least a year).
This is the only way middle classes can rebel with spending power. A consolidated punishment of a big firm would hurt the government but be perfectly legal I assume.
That's a very interesting point!This is the only way middle classes can rebel with spending power. A consolidated punishment of a big firm would hurt the government but be perfectly legal I assume.
The obvious extrapolation of this being that whilst people couldn't boycott all supermarkets indefinitely, most could certainly boycott one fairly indefinitely at minimal impact to themselves.
Please could we all agree that it won't be Waitrose?
Boringvolvodriver said:
jurbie said:
Rioting was dismissed as option early on in this thread but that's only because your average rioter doesn't have much of a stake in society so can generally be ignored. When people with mortgages and PCP car loans start lobbing bricks at the police then the Government has to take notice.
It doesn't happen very often, the poll tax riots were probably the last time but it worked and hastened the demise of the poll tax.
In the end, it wasn’t the riots per se that caused the demise of the poll tax, it was all the people refusing to pay it and ending up in court and then clogging up the courts that did it.It doesn't happen very often, the poll tax riots were probably the last time but it worked and hastened the demise of the poll tax.
In the current situation, I am not sure what can be done to bring real pressure on government.
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