Time to disband the Met?

[JeffreyD]

Is there an argument to split the service into something "locally" focused on certain low level crimes and community stuff and a national force for serious crime and armed response etc?

[Earthdweller]

JeffreyD said:

Is there an argument to split the service into something "locally" focused on certain low level crimes and community stuff and a national force for serious crime and armed response etc?

The Met is really two forces in one

It is a local police force .. yet has a sizeable number of staff on national/international roles

Nationally there the NCA which is branded like the “British FBI” opinions vary whether it is

Armed response is generally something that helps having local knowledge and local control. There are other national resources that can be in place very quickly if a serious ongoing threat emerges

Generally police forces are based on local authority areas .. the Met shrank in size in 2000 to fit within the Mayoral responsibility and public accountability

There’s been rumours of BTP becoming a national “transport” force and taking over roads policing and airports but nothing has come of it

The Met now is no different from any of the other geographic forces it’s based on a county basis

The creation is Police Scotland from various local forces hasn’t really been a great success by all accounts

[Earthdweller]

Some people eh ?

https://mobile.twitter.com/claudiawebbe/status/140...

Suspended Labour MP awaiting trial for criminal offences accuses the Met of being corrupt

You couldn’t make it up

[N7GTX]

Earthdweller said:

N7GTX said:

I'm not sure of the relevance of PACE in regards to this case. PACE was introduced in 1984 to address lots of underhand conduct such as a quiet word in the cells before an interview and other shenanigans. Daniel Morgan was murdered in 1987 so PACE had been live for 3 years yet the corruption continued for years and years.

The MET have always had a 'reputation' and during the miners' strike showed their true colours. In my then home town where the MET were billeted at a local army camp they went into the town and hired TV sets on week long contracts from the local shops. On the Friday afternoon they would set off back to London taking the TV sets with them. The local police stopped the buses on the A1 to get them back and apologised to the shop keepers. These were not middle or upper management thieves, these were rank and file constables and sergeants all in uniform.

Pace was enacted in 84 but didn’t go live till late 86 and in 87 was very very new

Again you fall into the same trap as Derek above .. you cannot compare the actions of people 40 years ago with those of people serving today who weren’t even born when it happened

Perhaps look at a Ford car advert from back then and then try and convince me that everyone who works for Ford today is sexist

Or watch the black and white minstrels show and convince me that everyone who works for the bbc today is racist

It’s a spurious and fatally flawed argument

PACE went live on the 1st January 1986 well before Daniel Morgan died. There is no trap we fall into. The corruption in this case was present in 1987 and those involved have 'got away with it'. The MET were incapable of rooting out their corruption despite 7 different commissioners.
Of course its not just the MET but being the largest by a mile, it is statistically likely that there will always be more corrupt/dishonest/criminal officers and being a high profile service, attracts media attention. The problem for Dick is her refusal to have anything negative said about the MET. Even tonight, she has stated to the BBC the MET is not institutionally corrupt. In my view this is a serious error of judgement when the report clearly names her. Its one thing to want to back your officers but in this case? Absolutely not.

[Biggy Stardust]

Earthdweller said:

Some people eh ?

https://mobile.twitter.com/claudiawebbe/status/140...

Suspended Labour MP awaiting trial for criminal offences accuses the Met of being corrupt

You couldn’t make it up

Does this negate the report which found evidence of institutional corruption? I think not.

[hyphen]

Earthdweller said:

Some people eh ?

https://mobile.twitter.com/claudiawebbe/status/140...

Suspended Labour MP awaiting trial for criminal offences accuses the Met of being corrupt

You couldn’t make it up

Awaiting trial with a not guilty plea is not the same as guilty... for all we know, she may be a victim of police negligence/corruption.

Untill such time the court rules as such, its not relevant.

[Derek Smith]

N7GTX said:

PACE went live on the 1st January 1986 well before Daniel Morgan died. There is no trap we fall into. The corruption in this case was present in 1987 and those involved have 'got away with it'. The MET were incapable of rooting out their corruption despite 7 different commissioners.
Of course its not just the MET but being the largest by a mile, it is statistically likely that there will always be more corrupt/dishonest/criminal officers and being a high profile service, attracts media attention. The problem for Dick is her refusal to have anything negative said about the MET. Even tonight, she has stated to the BBC the MET is not institutionally corrupt. In my view this is a serious error of judgement when the report clearly names her. Its one thing to want to back your officers but in this case? Absolutely not.

Not quite sure what your point is with regards to the PACE Act. It’s function, and one it provided well in the main, was to ensure the proper treatment of prisoners and a standard prosecution procedure. The CPS was, in essence, a check. The authority to charge and prosecute was theirs and theirs alone with regards police cases.

The police prosecuting their own offences in magistrates' court had certain advantages, most notably that the vast majority of officers only took insufficient evidence to court once (makes me cringe to think of it), but was open to abuse. The PACE Act closed that door.

It could not eliminate corruption on its own. All it did was govern investigations, but this meant corrupt practices became more apparent and were challenged by the CPS. Once the day to day corruption, even at a low level, was made too difficult for most to bother with, it became the opposite of a vicious circle. A much more pleasant process to work in.

The PACE Act had little effect on ‘higher ups’ and, it might seem, they carried on much as before. I know of a case, involving a close friend, where the CPS caved into pressure from the police hierarchy. It would appear that they can ‘influence’ to a degree I would not have believed possible. Oddly enough, Dick was involved in that case. It fell apart, the abuse of process was made apparent, the ‘lack of consistency’, which some called lies, was proven, but she went from her post to Commissioner.

I have no time for her, but she is exactly what the Home Office wants, and that’s where the fault lies.

Foreign forces came to this country to see how the PACE Act might affect their processes. No one took it up with any degree of urgency, yet in most cases, their problems were similar to those of Englnd/Wales.

[Earthdweller]

Derek Smith said:

N7GTX said:

PACE went live on the 1st January 1986 well before Daniel Morgan died. There is no trap we fall into. The corruption in this case was present in 1987 and those involved have 'got away with it'. The MET were incapable of rooting out their corruption despite 7 different commissioners.
Of course its not just the MET but being the largest by a mile, it is statistically likely that there will always be more corrupt/dishonest/criminal officers and being a high profile service, attracts media attention. The problem for Dick is her refusal to have anything negative said about the MET. Even tonight, she has stated to the BBC the MET is not institutionally corrupt. In my view this is a serious error of judgement when the report clearly names her. Its one thing to want to back your officers but in this case? Absolutely not.

Not quite sure what your point is with regards to the PACE Act. It’s function, and one it provided well in the main, was to ensure the proper treatment of prisoners and a standard prosecution procedure. The CPS was, in essence, a check. The authority to charge and prosecute was theirs and theirs alone with regards police cases.

The police prosecuting their own offences in magistrates' court had certain advantages, most notably that the vast majority of officers only took insufficient evidence to court once (makes me cringe to think of it), but was open to abuse. The PACE Act closed that door.

It could not eliminate corruption on its own. All it did was govern investigations, but this meant corrupt practices became more apparent and were challenged by the CPS. Once the day to day corruption, even at a low level, was made too difficult for most to bother with, it became the opposite of a vicious circle. A much more pleasant process to work in.

The PACE Act had little effect on ‘higher ups’ and, it might seem, they carried on much as before. I know of a case, involving a close friend, where the CPS caved into pressure from the police hierarchy. It would appear that they can ‘influence’ to a degree I would not have believed possible. Oddly enough, Dick was involved in that case. It fell apart, the abuse of process was made apparent, the ‘lack of consistency’, which some called lies, was proven, but she went from her post to Commissioner.

I have no time for her, but she is exactly what the Home Office wants, and that’s where the fault lies.

Foreign forces came to this country to see how the PACE Act might affect their processes. No one took it up with any degree of urgency, yet in most cases, their problems were similar to those of Englnd/Wales.

You are quite right Derek, PACE is a red herring

It governs powers and procedures .. corruption and criminal enterprise will happen far from a custody suite

As is referring to the miners strike .. again another red herring, anyone who served at Orgreave would be likely in their 60/70’s or even 80’s now

The culture is completely different now and not recognisable

I refer you back to my post on pg2, which highlights where the failings are

Dick does seem to have some serious Teflon coating however. I’ve never worked with her but those who have generally speak well of her, certainly when she was middle ranking

Undoubtedly she’s smart and a political animal I just don’t feel she is what is needed to lead the Met with an invisible managerial style

The H.O. and CoP have caused the problems we face today in the mediocrity of leadership

[pavarotti1980]

Earthdweller said:

You are quite right Derek, PACE is a red herring

It governs powers and procedures .. corruption and criminal enterprise will happen far from a custody suite

As is referring to the miners strike .. again another red herring, anyone who served at Orgreave would be likely in their 60/70’s or even 80’s now

The culture is completely different now and not recognisable

I refer you back to my post on pg2, which highlights where the failings are

Dick does seem to have some serious Teflon coating however. I’ve never worked with her but those who have generally speak well of her, certainly when she was middle ranking

Undoubtedly she’s smart and a political animal I just don’t feel she is what is needed to lead the Met with an invisible managerial style

The H.O. and CoP have caused the problems we face today in the mediocrity of leadership

Do they need a new leader a la GMP with Watson or Northamptonshire with Adderley?

[carinaman]

hyphen said:

Earthdweller said:

Some people eh ?

https://mobile.twitter.com/claudiawebbe/status/140...

Suspended Labour MP awaiting trial for criminal offences accuses the Met of being corrupt

You couldn’t make it up

Awaiting trial with a not guilty plea is not the same as guilty... for all we know, she may be a victim of police negligence/corruption.

Until such time the court rules as such, its not relevant.

Didn't Baroness Nuala O’Loan say on Tuesday at the delayed release of the Daniel Morgan Independent Panel report that the police covering up stuff to protect their reputation was institutional corruption?

So what an MP or anyone else says doesn't really alter that.

Am I a rabid police hater or a victim of institutional corruption?

[Earthdweller]

pavarotti1980 said:

Do they need a new leader a la GMP with Watson or Northamptonshire with Adderley?

I don’t know Watson at all or anything about him really

Nick Adderly is a top bloke without doubt and a great leader, he’d be my choice but the Met Chief role is a political one really and I’m not sure how an old fashioned no nonsense leader would go down politically

[Derek Smith]

One of the problems with the police in my day, and maybe in the future, is the quality of recruits.

I’m of a vintage that can remember the endemic corruption in the 70s, being a bit of a victim myself of it, the introduction of the PACE Act and the change in policing it helped bring on. There was no agreement with regards to how much the Act was responsible, and my view, after working in a force that had a firm within a firm, is probably biased. See the rather exciting series on BBC iPlayer, called Bent Coppers: Crossing the Line of Duty. There are some quality contributors, especially in the third part. There's a slight, although doomed, hope that some regular posters on PH might revise their opinion that I 'always' support the police.

Some suggest that the surge in recruits in the early 80s, brought on by a rise in pay to the adequate (or an improvement over abysmal, whichever accurate definition you prefer) allied to high unemployment rates under Thatcher, meant that there was a choice in whom to pick.

I was one of eight aspirants on my selection procedure, which included one chap who, with a bit more flesh, could has passed for a skeleton (mind you, turned into a decent copper, although it took time), a woman 2” under minimum height, and two iffy ex-soldiers, one, it turned out, with a conviction for GBH w/i, or at least their version, in Germany. The other increased his pay by stealing from vagrants, of which there was an unending supply given the hostel 100 yards from the nick.

All eight were selected. The longest serving one in the force was me, and I lasted just 10 years.

In the middle 80s, and there’s little conceit in this, I’d have been the only one with a chance of getting to the board, and the majority would have been out at paper-sift time.

When I was giving a chat to new recruits – I forget the subject – out of the dozen or so in the class, four were graduates, two had had successful careers – one an electrician, nice to know, and there were two or three ex-forces, one an ex-MP, who turned out to be quality. I did wonder at the time how many might have applied to the force when pay and conditions were poor.

What made the police, in my mind, significantly more professional was probably a combination of factors, of which legislation was merely one. It’s fair to say that attitude was a factor with the better qualified recruits. They would challenge all the time. They were great to teach.

The assault on pay and particularly conditions over recent years is the same old cycle. They improve, the Home Office, or the burk in charge, will suggest that they can save money by cutting back on staff (although never so brutally swingeing as Cameron’s attack) and increasing workloads, then staff leave and standards drop, and there’s an enquiry, and police pay and conditions are improved, until the next myopic HomSec is in place and wants to make a name for themselves.

It was ever thus.

[pavarotti1980]

Earthdweller said:

I don’t know Watson at all or anything about him really

Nick Adderly is a top bloke without doubt and a great leader, he’d be my choice but the Met Chief role is a political one really and I’m not sure how an old fashioned no nonsense leader would go down politically

Im surprised Dido Harding isnt in the frame!!!

[N7GTX]

Derek Smith said:

See the rather exciting series on BBC iPlayer, called Bent Coppers: Crossing the Line of Duty. There are some quality contributors, especially in the third part. There's a slight, although doomed, hope that some regular posters on PH might revise their opinion that I 'always' support the police.

I've seen that series so I assume the Derek Smith in it is one and the same?

[Derek Smith]

N7GTX said:

I've seen that series so I assume the Derek Smith in it is one and the same?

Yep. That was me. I didn't realise my voice was so low. You'd think I'd know as, let's face it, I'm there every time I speak. My wife said, when I expressed surprise, that she thought I was speaking slightly higher than I normally do.

Did you find anything surprising in the series? Did it tell you anything you didn’t know? The way officers were corrupted was put over well I thought, but what was not shown was that honest coppers could refuse. I was in a firearms team and one of our blokes asked me whether he should join the Mirror job enquiry team. (Why me? I knew little.)

He turned up on the first day and was given a desk. He discovered a brown envelope (why always brown?) with £35 in it. It was £50 to CID, but our bloke was uniform, so only entitled to £35. He gave it to the office manager, a detective sergeant. He was asked if he was certain. That evening he got a phone call at home and was told to report back to us the following day.

It was as easy at that not to be corrupt.

The detective chief super, the bloke in charge of the City Police CID, has got to be suspect, especially as he resigned just after the investigation by Countryman. Yet I liked the bloke. He was personable, didn't treat sergeants with disdain, even asking their opinion. I got on well with him but, of course, couldn’t go to him with any worries about corruption. He came up with excuses, reasonable ones, but . . .

It was sad to see him in a home and looking frail. He was a good looking bloke, intelligent and sensitive, and every woman in a room would look at him if he walked in and crossed from one side to the other. Very irritating. My wife said she remembered him. She met him twice, for a couple of minutes each time, and that was 40 years ago.

I was a little irritated by the editing. I was in the seat for about 7 hrs, and I told them about me finding a getaway vehicle for the Daily Mirror murder/payroll job. I've not done much in the way of intelligent, incisive investigation, but that was about my best. It was cut. I was, and remain, miffed.

Full story available in my book, Both Sides of the Force.

[Earthdweller]

Derek Smith said:

Full story available in my book, Both Sides of the Force.

Are you kylo Ren?

[JeffreyD]

Derek Smith said:

It was as easy at that not to be corrupt.

Just to snip this bit.

By not reporting the crime you were all corrupt. That's sort of the point of police corruption. The police didn't do anything about it.


I do absolutely appreciate that actually doing anything about it would have been nigh on impossible for most and that those turning down the envelopes were generally in an impossible position.

[Earthdweller]

JeffreyD said:

Just to snip this bit.

By not reporting the crime you were all corrupt. That's sort of the point of police corruption. The police didn't do anything about it.


I do absolutely appreciate that actually doing anything about it would have been nigh on impossible for most and that those turning down the envelopes were generally in an impossible position.

You couldn’t break the system, the system would break you. You could choose to be straight or bent ... the vast majority were straight though

Because it wasn’t just the Police it was endemic from the Politicians down and all pervading

I remember my first proper job before I joined the cops and being sat down and told “this is how it is lad” things that would get you sacked on the spot today were accepted norm then

The good old days were the bad old days

The point is though that what happened 50
Years ago is a million years away from the Police ( or anything ) of today

The culture in the police is a full 360* from what it was back then and the link HAS been broken

I’m not saying the Police of today are perfect, far from it, but it’s no way comparable at all with 50 year ago

In my 30 years from the mid 80’s onwards I saw huge change in every aspect to the point that the job I left was unrecognisable from the one I joined

In some ways it had lost the plot, without doubt, but with regards to honesty, integrity, oversight and performance management it was far far better

[JeffreyD]

Earthdweller said:

You couldn’t break the system, the system would break you. You could choose to be straight or bent ... the vast majority were straight though

Because it wasn’t just the Police it was endemic from the Politicians down and all pervading

I remember first proper job before I joined the cops and being sat down and told “this is how it is lad” things that would get you sacked on the spot today were accepted norm then

The good old days were the bad old days

The point is though that what happened 50
Years ago is a million years away from the Police ( or anything ) of today

The culture in the police is a full 360* from what it was back then and the link HAS been broken

I’m not saying the Police of today are perfect, far from it, but it’s no way comparable at all with 50 year ago

In my 30 years from the mid 80’s onwards I saw huge change in every aspect to the point that the job I left was unrecognisable from the one I joined

In some ways it had lost the plot, without doubt, but with regards to honesty, integrity, oversight and performance management it was far far better

I understand your point totally, but it also reinforces institutional corruption. And it's why people believe the the institution is still corrupt. Not because they think all of them are on the take but because rhe system doesn't allow for it to be stopped.

[Biggy Stardust]

The report stated a corrupt organisation. I'm not seeing acknowledgement & intent to change here so much as excuses, deflection & fingers in ears whilst chanting "la, la, la"

Deny the facts all you want but they won't change.