Discussion
Nickgnome said:
towser44 said:
I'm only 39 and currently, I'll have worked 50 years by state pension age. 52 if you count the 2 years I also worked full time hours between 16 and 18 whilst at college.
I think you need 35years of contributions currently. worth a check though.I, very foolishly, contracted out of Serps. We originally got a contribution to so do,1 or 2% i think. The governemnt then took that away after a few years. That has cost me over 3K pa although has obviously unburdened the state in that regard.
My advice would be to bung as much as you can into your own pot but also look at other investments like Isas, stretch your self property wise. There is no capital gain on your primary residence.
towser44 said:
Nickgnome said:
towser44 said:
I'm only 39 and currently, I'll have worked 50 years by state pension age. 52 if you count the 2 years I also worked full time hours between 16 and 18 whilst at college.
I think you need 35years of contributions currently. worth a check though.I, very foolishly, contracted out of Serps. We originally got a contribution to so do,1 or 2% i think. The governemnt then took that away after a few years. That has cost me over 3K pa although has obviously unburdened the state in that regard.
My advice would be to bung as much as you can into your own pot but also look at other investments like Isas, stretch your self property wise. There is no capital gain on your primary residence.
leef44 said:
I agree a pensioner should be allowed a few luxuries but over a lifetime of working you would hope that people would have saved something for that.
I see the state pension as a welfare benefit. As a developed country we should expect that as a minimum everyone should have shelter, warmth and food. No one should go hungry. So I think of the state pension as a bare minimum to cover for that.
Having the bare minimum covered, people should take responsibility of their own destiny so if they want luxury on top of that then they should take it upon themselves to put something aside.
It's a laudable aspiration but many minimum wage earners never get into a position to save. Fortunately we have the new occupational pension scheme but unfortunately one can opt out. This should not be possible. I see the state pension as a welfare benefit. As a developed country we should expect that as a minimum everyone should have shelter, warmth and food. No one should go hungry. So I think of the state pension as a bare minimum to cover for that.
Having the bare minimum covered, people should take responsibility of their own destiny so if they want luxury on top of that then they should take it upon themselves to put something aside.
leef44 said:
I agree a pensioner should be allowed a few luxuries but over a lifetime of working you would hope that people would have saved something for that.
I see the state pension as a welfare benefit. As a developed country we should expect that as a minimum everyone should have shelter, warmth and food. No one should go hungry. So I think of the state pension as a bare minimum to cover for that.
Having the bare minimum covered, people should take responsibility of their own destiny so if they want luxury on top of that then they should take it upon themselves to put something aside.
I don't necessarily disagree, but how long the savings lasts depends on how long the pensioner lives. I see the state pension as a welfare benefit. As a developed country we should expect that as a minimum everyone should have shelter, warmth and food. No one should go hungry. So I think of the state pension as a bare minimum to cover for that.
Having the bare minimum covered, people should take responsibility of their own destiny so if they want luxury on top of that then they should take it upon themselves to put something aside.
It also depends on how much warning the future pensioner gets to allow them to save for their projected retirement, and what happens with inflation/interest rates. Easy enough to save a few grand if you get 20 or 30 years' notice that you'll need it. Not so easy if you are close to retirement age.
Living on the state pension is probably fine for someone who has existed on benefits or minimum wage all their "working" life, never saved, and lives in a council house. They will get pension credits and help towards housing costs, plus free care when they need it.
Someone with a decent private pension and plenty in the bank will be fine too.
It's those in the middle who really need a decent state pension. £16k in the bank? - no pension credits, just the basic pension. Own your own home? You're on your own when the roof needs fixing. Need some personal or nursing care? Have to pay for it, or go into a care home and sell the house to cover the bills.
Seems to me you need to be either well-off or skint to have a reasonable retirement.
Nickgnome said:
Biggy Stardust said:
NRS said:
Nickgnome said:
Many many working people exist all their lives. They have not the skills to plan their lives so saying the should have saved is naive.
What is the average wage now? £27K or so. Minimum wage say £15K. Unfortunately many in this bracket will not have been well educated.
Why would you expect people who have "existing" for their life to suddenly start "living"? I'd also hazard a guess many of those people would have regarded their life as pretty ok too. Are you not the person with homes in the UK and Taillin, and perhaps a yacht or something? Just because people don't have the same standard as you it's not like they're miserable people groveling away in the dirt. What is the average wage now? £27K or so. Minimum wage say £15K. Unfortunately many in this bracket will not have been well educated.
Should they be penalised at retirement age. I say not.
The state pension should be based on providing a reasonable standard of living for an individual and not require a multitude of other benefits to make it work.
More fortunate pensioners can and do get taxed on their increased income. If the tax gets too punitive then this will disincentivise advancement.
The big issue for pensions is that the amount of time working combined with the contributions then are not enough to pay for a good life afterwards for many people. How can it be when it's approximately 25% on money over £8k a year (so approx. £4750 a year average per person). Compound interest helps of course, but if you work for 30 years and are retired for 30 years there is no way it can add up.
We have to choose if we want a crap rate over a long time, or chop the pension age. The reality is that the pension age should have been chopped a long time back but it would be a vote loser. Instead the boomers have the greatest pensions in history (this is not to say they're all super well off etc, but as a generation they'll take out a lot more than they paid in for pensions due to time retired versus working), with Gen X having to try and make up a botched system of quickly extending pension ages and switching from DC to DC, and although the expectations of pensions is fixed for the Millenials they've been brought up in an a poorly regulated world where saving is pointless and debt is everything.
Given this it makes little sense to be giving the current pensioners effectively pay increases more than the salary increases of the workers that pay for them, given the future pension outlook too. The only reason the next generation pay for the previous one was the country was broke after WW2, unfortunately it turned into a bit of a ponzi scheme in which some have massively benefited more than others.
The triple lock should be a different conversation than minimum living wage. All the triple lock does is transfer wealth from the younger generation to the older one at the time it is around. Want a better pension? Fix the living wage, not a fudge to try and help pensions.
leef44 said:
Nickgnome said:
Maybe you are correct as we are more digitised. Surely tax does this already though?
Although I was never a fan of CB even as a father, I can see now that actually with our falling berth rate we could well have a resource problem in a few years so have changed my view.
There is always the option of immigration, it doesn't have to be about encouraging people to have more children.Although I was never a fan of CB even as a father, I can see now that actually with our falling berth rate we could well have a resource problem in a few years so have changed my view.
ThatGuyWhoDoesStuff said:
Mr.Chips said:
Yes, it is reasonable! Most of the people this applies to rely on their state pensions to survive. They won’t all have a great workplace pensions and need the triple lock to ensure that the state pension keeps up with inflation etc.
The young people at school will catch up with what they have missed and when they start work they will be at the start of their earning potential. To punish the elderly by dumping the triple lock, when they have worked for a lifetime would be a crappy thing to do, not to mention a guaranteed vote loser.
Before anyone asks, yes, I am retired, no I am not old enough for my state pension, but I look forward to getting it in just over 3 years, mainly because I have a full set of NI contributions and, in my opinion, I have earned it.
Ensure the state pension keeps up with inflation? If that’s your argument, what on earth have wage increases/2.5% got to do with that? Almost all increases since the triple lock have been inflation plus. Stopping the triple lock doesn’t punish them - it just stops them from having greater pay increases than working people. How can you possibly argue the opposite. The young people at school will catch up with what they have missed and when they start work they will be at the start of their earning potential. To punish the elderly by dumping the triple lock, when they have worked for a lifetime would be a crappy thing to do, not to mention a guaranteed vote loser.
Before anyone asks, yes, I am retired, no I am not old enough for my state pension, but I look forward to getting it in just over 3 years, mainly because I have a full set of NI contributions and, in my opinion, I have earned it.
Saying kids ‘will catch up’ is a special kind of ignorance. How do you expect them to do that? Magic?
t about catching up. However, the majority worked hard during lockdown. They are already being offered extensive catch up sessions by dedicated teaching staff. They will continue to work hard and, quite quickly, recover the ground they have lost. When they start work, they will be at the start of their earning potential. At that point it is entirely up to the individual as to whether they will fulfil that potential or fall short. I have seen kids who have been at different positions on that spectrum. Some of the most motivated have come from families that don’t have a pot to piss in. Some of the least motivated have come from families which have been incredibly wealthy. Inevitably, some will be switched on regarding pensions and will sort out their own schemes, or have a good workplace scheme, rather than rely on the state pension. However, there WILL be some who will make no additional provision and, while this is the case, the triple lock is vital.
Now, if a future government decides to change the state pension that is a different issue. The only problem with that would be building in enough time to allow those affected to make other arrangements.
Mr.Chips said:
Inevitably, some will be switched on regarding pensions and will sort out their own schemes, or have a good workplace scheme, rather than rely on the state pension. However, there WILL be some who will make no additional provision and, while this is the case, the triple lock is vital.
No. Mandatory pension contributions, with an inflation link over time is important. Not the triple lock. The triple lock guarantees an unequal wealth transfer from working people to those on pensions as it means at a minimum they have the same rise, if not they get a relative pay rise to those paying for the pensions.Mr.Chips said:
ThatGuyWhoDoesStuff said:
Mr.Chips said:
Yes, it is reasonable! Most of the people this applies to rely on their state pensions to survive. They won’t all have a great workplace pensions and need the triple lock to ensure that the state pension keeps up with inflation etc.
The young people at school will catch up with what they have missed and when they start work they will be at the start of their earning potential. To punish the elderly by dumping the triple lock, when they have worked for a lifetime would be a crappy thing to do, not to mention a guaranteed vote loser.
Before anyone asks, yes, I am retired, no I am not old enough for my state pension, but I look forward to getting it in just over 3 years, mainly because I have a full set of NI contributions and, in my opinion, I have earned it.
Ensure the state pension keeps up with inflation? If that’s your argument, what on earth have wage increases/2.5% got to do with that? Almost all increases since the triple lock have been inflation plus. Stopping the triple lock doesn’t punish them - it just stops them from having greater pay increases than working people. How can you possibly argue the opposite. The young people at school will catch up with what they have missed and when they start work they will be at the start of their earning potential. To punish the elderly by dumping the triple lock, when they have worked for a lifetime would be a crappy thing to do, not to mention a guaranteed vote loser.
Before anyone asks, yes, I am retired, no I am not old enough for my state pension, but I look forward to getting it in just over 3 years, mainly because I have a full set of NI contributions and, in my opinion, I have earned it.
Saying kids ‘will catch up’ is a special kind of ignorance. How do you expect them to do that? Magic?
t about catching up. However, the majority worked hard during lockdown. They are already being offered extensive catch up sessions by dedicated teaching staff. They will continue to work hard and, quite quickly, recover the ground they have lost. When they start work, they will be at the start of their earning potential. At that point it is entirely up to the individual as to whether they will fulfil that potential or fall short. I have seen kids who have been at different positions on that spectrum. Some of the most motivated have come from families that don’t have a pot to piss in. Some of the least motivated have come from families which have been incredibly wealthy. Inevitably, some will be switched on regarding pensions and will sort out their own schemes, or have a good workplace scheme, rather than rely on the state pension. However, there WILL be some who will make no additional provision and, while this is the case, the triple lock is vital.
Now, if a future government decides to change the state pension that is a different issue. The only problem with that would be building in enough time to allow those affected to make other arrangements.
Pensioners have not worked a lifetime for the state pension. The state pension is paid from current taxes and has no relevance to money put in. But I see you are totally ok with it being changed in the future but not now. I assume you are at or close to state pension age? The triple lock has meant for a long time pensions have gone up a lot faster than wages. Many younger people have seen wages stagnant or falling, whilst house prices rise, whilst pensioners who benefited from much lower house prices and better company pensions (many on defined benefit even in low skilled jobs that would now be luck to get any more than the legal minimum) see pensions rising. It’s reached the point where it needs to be looked at.
Mr.Chips said:
Kids DO catch up! Not by magic, but by hard work. I have worked with kids who, through illness or injury have missed a great deal of their education, in the vast majority of cases, they have been incredibly well motivated and diligent in their efforts to catch up. I know the pandemic has interrupted the education of our kids. I also know of kids who couldn’t give a st about catching up. However, the majority worked hard during lockdown. They are already being offered extensive catch up sessions by dedicated teaching staff. They will continue to work hard and, quite quickly, recover the ground they have lost. When they start work, they will be at the start of their earning potential. At that point it is entirely up to the individual as to whether they will fulfil that potential or fall short. I have seen kids who have been at different positions on that spectrum. Some of the most motivated have come from families that don’t have a pot to piss in. Some of the least motivated have come from families which have been incredibly wealthy.
Inevitably, some will be switched on regarding pensions and will sort out their own schemes, or have a good workplace scheme, rather than rely on the state pension. However, there WILL be some who will make no additional provision and, while this is the case, the triple lock is vital.
Now, if a future government decides to change the state pension that is a different issue. The only problem with that would be building in enough time to allow those affected to make other arrangements.
Changing our tax and benefit system falls very much in the too difficult pile.t about catching up. However, the majority worked hard during lockdown. They are already being offered extensive catch up sessions by dedicated teaching staff. They will continue to work hard and, quite quickly, recover the ground they have lost. When they start work, they will be at the start of their earning potential. At that point it is entirely up to the individual as to whether they will fulfil that potential or fall short. I have seen kids who have been at different positions on that spectrum. Some of the most motivated have come from families that don’t have a pot to piss in. Some of the least motivated have come from families which have been incredibly wealthy. Inevitably, some will be switched on regarding pensions and will sort out their own schemes, or have a good workplace scheme, rather than rely on the state pension. However, there WILL be some who will make no additional provision and, while this is the case, the triple lock is vital.
Now, if a future government decides to change the state pension that is a different issue. The only problem with that would be building in enough time to allow those affected to make other arrangements.
No government will ever have the political motivation to set the minimum wage at a rate which enables the individual to live and save for their future pension requirements. The whole tax system would have to change.
Furthermore if people became self sufficient who would they vote for. Governments are all about recycling money.
It would take a cross party consensus and a multi generational approach to make the change work.
In the meantime as long as the older generation are the ones that bother to vote then the parties will always lean toward those voters.
I do not know if it is my perception of history but I think through my late teens and twenties we were very engaged politically. this was 60's and 70's
JagLover said:
Nickgnome said:
I'm retired but consider that affluent pensioners should be taxed more. In reality i do not need it.
I think I get £750/month state pension so not remotely enough to live off.
Many pensioners live off this and a few other top ups. For them it is exiting not living.
Let's say average household bills of £2K a month of which £900 is mortgage. The mortgage is paid off by the time you retire and so you that is £1,100 a month. The £750 a month isn't that far short of that and cash savings, private pensions, or downsizing to release funds could bridge the gap for the vast majority. Added to which are potential cost savings. No commute, one car rather than two, etc.I think I get £750/month state pension so not remotely enough to live off.
Many pensioners live off this and a few other top ups. For them it is exiting not living.
I think saying £750 isn't remotely enough to live on, mortgage free, does rather depend on lifestyle expectations.
Sorry JagLover but you can not buy a wife from a low wage country on a basic state pension. Some people have different expectations.
Nickgnome said:
I do not know if it is my perception of history but I think through my late teens and twenties we were very engaged politically. this was 60's and 70's
Really?https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baby_boomers
Mr.Chips said:
ThatGuyWhoDoesStuff said:
Mr.Chips said:
Yes, it is reasonable! Most of the people this applies to rely on their state pensions to survive. They won’t all have a great workplace pensions and need the triple lock to ensure that the state pension keeps up with inflation etc.
The young people at school will catch up with what they have missed and when they start work they will be at the start of their earning potential. To punish the elderly by dumping the triple lock, when they have worked for a lifetime would be a crappy thing to do, not to mention a guaranteed vote loser.
Before anyone asks, yes, I am retired, no I am not old enough for my state pension, but I look forward to getting it in just over 3 years, mainly because I have a full set of NI contributions and, in my opinion, I have earned it.
Ensure the state pension keeps up with inflation? If that’s your argument, what on earth have wage increases/2.5% got to do with that? Almost all increases since the triple lock have been inflation plus. Stopping the triple lock doesn’t punish them - it just stops them from having greater pay increases than working people. How can you possibly argue the opposite. The young people at school will catch up with what they have missed and when they start work they will be at the start of their earning potential. To punish the elderly by dumping the triple lock, when they have worked for a lifetime would be a crappy thing to do, not to mention a guaranteed vote loser.
Before anyone asks, yes, I am retired, no I am not old enough for my state pension, but I look forward to getting it in just over 3 years, mainly because I have a full set of NI contributions and, in my opinion, I have earned it.
Saying kids ‘will catch up’ is a special kind of ignorance. How do you expect them to do that? Magic?
t about catching up. However, the majority worked hard during lockdown. They are already being offered extensive catch up sessions by dedicated teaching staff. They will continue to work hard and, quite quickly, recover the ground they have lost. When they start work, they will be at the start of their earning potential. At that point it is entirely up to the individual as to whether they will fulfil that potential or fall short. I have seen kids who have been at different positions on that spectrum. Some of the most motivated have come from families that don’t have a pot to piss in. Some of the least motivated have come from families which have been incredibly wealthy. Inevitably, some will be switched on regarding pensions and will sort out their own schemes, or have a good workplace scheme, rather than rely on the state pension. However, there WILL be some who will make no additional provision and, while this is the case, the triple lock is vital.
Now, if a future government decides to change the state pension that is a different issue. The only problem with that would be building in enough time to allow those affected to make other arrangements.
Are you a unionised teacher who has had a full 16 months off in reality.
soofsayer said:
Nickgnome said:
I do not know if it is my perception of history but I think through my late teens and twenties we were very engaged politically. this was 60's and 70's
Really?https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baby_boomers
What point are you trying to make?
lrdisco said:
Utter crap. My son is in his last year of studying A level Maths, Further Maths and Physics in a top UK 100 grammar school and there is no lack of dedication in his group but they will never recover the year they lost.
Are you a unionised teacher who has had a full 16 months off in reality.
Maybe you do your son a disservice.Are you a unionised teacher who has had a full 16 months off in reality.
The time can never be recovered but how you can possibly predict your son's future achievements is unfathomable.
I can now only talk of my Granddaughter, 11, who i have not seen since Nov 12019. I, like her Mum and Dad are more positive and my Granddaughter seems to be the happy outward going person she always was.
Nickgnome said:
I'm retired but consider that affluent pensioners should be taxed more. In reality i do not need it.
I think I get £750/month state pension so not remotely enough to live off.
Many pensioners live off this and a few other top ups. For them it is exiting not living.
Please dispel the myth the the majority of pensioners are baby boomers with gold plated pensions and massive debt free houses.
Said by a pensioner. I think I get £750/month state pension so not remotely enough to live off.
Many pensioners live off this and a few other top ups. For them it is exiting not living.
Please dispel the myth the the majority of pensioners are baby boomers with gold plated pensions and massive debt free houses.
Nickgnome said:
Maybe you do your son a disservice.
The time can never be recovered but how you can possibly predict your son's future achievements is unfathomable.
I can now only talk of my Granddaughter, 11, who i have not seen since Nov 12019. I, like her Mum and Dad are more positive and my Granddaughter seems to be the happy outward going person she always was.
Comparing the pandemic effect on your 11 year old granddaughter you see on zoom calls to someone’s 17/18 year old son they live with is a bizarre place to be and irrelevant on every level.The time can never be recovered but how you can possibly predict your son's future achievements is unfathomable.
I can now only talk of my Granddaughter, 11, who i have not seen since Nov 12019. I, like her Mum and Dad are more positive and my Granddaughter seems to be the happy outward going person she always was.
Mr.Chips said:
Kids DO catch up! Not by magic, but by hard work. I have worked with kids who, through illness or injury have missed a great deal of their education, in the vast majority of cases, they have been incredibly well motivated and diligent in their efforts to catch up. I know the pandemic has interrupted the education of our kids. I also know of kids who couldn’t give a st about catching up. However, the majority worked hard during lockdown. They are already being offered extensive catch up sessions by dedicated teaching staff. They will continue to work hard and, quite quickly, recover the ground they have lost. When they start work, they will be at the start of their earning potential. At that point it is entirely up to the individual as to whether they will fulfil that potential or fall short. I have seen kids who have been at different positions on that spectrum. Some of the most motivated have come from families that don’t have a pot to piss in. Some of the least motivated have come from families which have been incredibly wealthy.
Inevitably, some will be switched on regarding pensions and will sort out their own schemes, or have a good workplace scheme, rather than rely on the state pension. However, there WILL be some who will make no additional provision and, while this is the case, the triple lock is vital.
Now, if a future government decides to change the state pension that is a different issue. The only problem with that would be building in enough time to allow those affected to make other arrangements.
When it takes 3 people to pay the state pension of 1 pensioner, how exactly can they ‘catch up?’t about catching up. However, the majority worked hard during lockdown. They are already being offered extensive catch up sessions by dedicated teaching staff. They will continue to work hard and, quite quickly, recover the ground they have lost. When they start work, they will be at the start of their earning potential. At that point it is entirely up to the individual as to whether they will fulfil that potential or fall short. I have seen kids who have been at different positions on that spectrum. Some of the most motivated have come from families that don’t have a pot to piss in. Some of the least motivated have come from families which have been incredibly wealthy. Inevitably, some will be switched on regarding pensions and will sort out their own schemes, or have a good workplace scheme, rather than rely on the state pension. However, there WILL be some who will make no additional provision and, while this is the case, the triple lock is vital.
Now, if a future government decides to change the state pension that is a different issue. The only problem with that would be building in enough time to allow those affected to make other arrangements.
You realise that the nature of the triple lock is that they can NEVER catch up, as one of the locks is against wage growth?
Why do you keep saying ‘start of their earning potential’ as if that somehow means something on it’s own. You’re arguing that pensioners don’t have enough (presumably didn’t catch up to their earning potential), so youngsters have to correct their failures?
The ignorance is astounding.
soofsayer said:
Comparing the pandemic effect on your 11 year old granddaughter you see on zoom calls to someone’s 17/18 year old son they live with is a bizarre place to be and irrelevant on every level.
Why? Do you think my daily calls from my Daughter and Granddaughter are not good? Negative parental attitude is not good.
Please now answer my question to you for our previous exchange or will you duck it?
Mr Spoon said:
Nickgnome said:
I'm retired but consider that affluent pensioners should be taxed more. In reality i do not need it.
I think I get £750/month state pension so not remotely enough to live off.
Many pensioners live off this and a few other top ups. For them it is exiting not living.
Please dispel the myth the the majority of pensioners are baby boomers with gold plated pensions and massive debt free houses.
Said by a pensioner. I think I get £750/month state pension so not remotely enough to live off.
Many pensioners live off this and a few other top ups. For them it is exiting not living.
Please dispel the myth the the majority of pensioners are baby boomers with gold plated pensions and massive debt free houses.
As a pensioner with no home of your own, no savings and no other sources of income, how much would you need to live?
Edited by Nickgnome on Friday 18th June 23:40
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