First transgender athlete to compete at Olympics

[Randy Winkman]

I sort of agree with ZedLeg about people making up things to get angry about. And I dont think that womens sport is about to be destroyed.

But even the issue that prompted the opening post does show a problem because each individual case is a big issue for those directly involved. I personally dont think the weight lifter should be allowed to compete against women in the same way I (reluctantly) didn't think Caster Semenya should have competed in women's races. (Even though I accept that she is a woman.)

[Tony Starks]

Sheets Tabuer said:

So has this woman been stomping all over the competition since she transitioned, blowing everyone else of the water, I don't follow the sport so genuine question.

Pretty much gold and silvers since 2017

[anonymous-user]

Randy Winkman said:

I sort of agree with ZedLeg about people making up things to get angry about. And I dont think that womens sport is about to be destroyed.

But even the issue that prompted the opening post does show a problem because each individual case is a big issue for those directly involved. I personally dont think the weight lifter should be allowed to compete against women in the same way I (reluctantly) didn't think Caster Semenya should have competed in women's races. (Even though I accept that she is a woman.)

But if you accept they are both women , to deny them access to women sports makes you transphobic ( according to trans logic )

[anonymous-user]

ZedLeg said:

Is it 100% accepted that there is an advantage? I’d like to see that evidence.

Do you genuinely believe men are not stronger and have more advantage than women ?

[768]

ZedLeg said:

Is it 100% accepted that there is an advantage? I’d like to see that evidence.

I wouldn't say 100% because some people have a screw loose.

But to anyone with eyes it should be obvious that a 5% reduction in muscle mass for Eddie Hall, let alone the larger frame of men at the extremes, would still result in someone with a strength advantage a woman could never attain.

The person this thread about is 43 years old, broke their arm last year and is on their way to the Olympics as a weightlifter in contention for medals!

Evidence.

[otolith]

I think this is an area where the reason for segregation is physiological and not social - if we didn’t have the concept of gender and gender roles we might still have different sporting classes for these physically dimorphic individuals in the same way that sports have weight classes.

The problem with pushing the particular case of elite sport is that a contentious issue which affects a tiny proportion of trans women is then weaponised against the rest of them just wanting to live ordinary lives.

[Gecko1978]

otolith said:

I think this is an area where the reason for segregation is physiological and not social - if we didn’t have the concept of gender and gender roles we might still have different sporting classes for these physically dimorphic individuals in the same way that sports have weight classes.

The problem with pushing the particular case of elite sport is that a contentious issue which affects a tiny proportion of trans women is then weaponised against the rest of them just wanting to live ordinary lives.

I think getting on with their lives is one thing and its fine, we can all be respectful and treat people in accordance with the law and how we would like to be treated. But even amateur sport there needs to be a balance, at 42 I can bench 100 to 110kg not an amazing amount but also not light weight - I dont now any women my age who are not on the extrea side of gym going that can do that. So were I to be a plucky amateur lifter an transition I would clearly have an unfair advantage.

In other aspects of life there is no need for segregation becuae physical aspects do nnot confer an advantage. The issues is some want trans an cis to be the same and in some respects they are in others they are not and we can not lie to ourselves about that.

[otolith]

I’m less concerned about amateur sport. It’s just a hobby and the overlap of talent is greater.

[Vanden Crash]

When a woman transitions to be a man and competes at an Olympic level and wins, then perhaps normality will have returned

[rdjohn]

The obvious answer is that after the Olympic games and the Paralympic games, there needs to be the Transgender games. C4 will pick up the TV rights.

It will be about as relevant as Ru Paul’s drag race to the 95.3% of those unaffected by LBGTQ issues. But at least it will be fair - of course there will have to be M-F and F-M divisions.

[Gecko1978]

otolith said:

I’m less concerned about amateur sport. It’s just a hobby and the overlap of talent is greater.

You might be but a women who had trained hard for an event to then be beaten by a trans women by a large margin might feel cheated. An so it undermins competition.

I don't see other areas affected by this the common "bathrooms" question frankly is not important and I doubt trans women want it to be either. But sport is about winners and loosers and we like the loosers to know it was a fair result.

[Tom _M]

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40279-0...

This paper covers the aspects of sporting differences pretty well.

IOC regs require testosterone suppression to below 10nmol/L for 12 months. Typical female values are between 0.12-1.79 nmol/L. Depending on the sport males have between a 10-50% performance gap on women. For Olympic weight lifting it is between 31-37%. Reducing testosterone does reduce muscle mass and strength, but typically only by around 5% or so. Trans women are clearly retaining a biological advantage that a male puberty and all the associated androgens infer.

I don’t think there are people transitioning just to ‘game the system’. Is it possible that there are federations looking for Trans women who have participated in sport and are looking at getting them into national squads? Quite possibly, yes.

The problem the IOC and governing bodies face is that the argument is not purely scientific. There is a large and very vocal movement for inclusion, and being seen to go against that can be very damaging for reputation.

[Randy Winkman]

Iwantafusca said:

Randy Winkman said:

I sort of agree with ZedLeg about people making up things to get angry about. And I dont think that womens sport is about to be destroyed.

But even the issue that prompted the opening post does show a problem because each individual case is a big issue for those directly involved. I personally dont think the weight lifter should be allowed to compete against women in the same way I (reluctantly) didn't think Caster Semenya should have competed in women's races. (Even though I accept that she is a woman.)

But if you accept they are both women , to deny them access to women sports makes you transphobic ( according to trans logic )

Even as someone that's a total lefty woke ......... I don't care.

[Gecko1978]

8.4L 154 said:

rdjohn said:

The obvious answer is that after the Olympic games and the Paralympic games, there needs to be the Transgender games. C4 will pick up the TV rights.

It will be about as relevant as Ru Paul’s drag race to the 95.3% of those unaffected by LBGTQ issues. But at least it will be fair - of course there will have to be M-F and F-M divisions.

With ONE athlete every 20 years Won't be much of a games!


Or will you lower the entry requirement to the Trans Olympics to below the qualification criteria for the women's events at the main Olympics, and doesn't doing that just confirm that trans athletes don't have an advantage over cis women?

What would be the test would be the results. So like now we would see weight lifted, 100m sprint time, javalin distance by men, women, trans athletes. The gold in each event would show us what was possible. Lauren Hubbard shows us that there is an unfair advantage, but of course it also shows us that its very hard to accommodate someone and not disadvantage others or exclude an athlete and not cause an offence. Trans Games does seem to resolve that sure less competitors but also no controversy

[ZedLeg]

Right so I've looked at the stats and it would seem that Hubbards weights were on a par with what was being lifted by the top three competitors at the last WC before she broke her arm. At that competition she was way off the pace, presumably because she was still working on the arm.

Based on the numbers I'm not sure that I'm seeing a huge advantage for her over the other competitors. The Belgian who's been quoted in most articles isn't in the same league as the top competitors regardless of whether Hubbard is there or not.

Or am I looking at the wrong stats?

Actually looking at it again, I don't think the Belgian woman would even be competing against Hubbard, unless the Olympc weight classes are different. I don't know enough about weight lifting to be sure.

Edited by ZedLeg on Tuesday 22 June 09:45

[anonymous-user]

ZedLeg said:

Right so I've looked at the stats and it would seem that Hubbards weights were on a par with what was being lifted by the top three competitors at the last WC before she broke her arm. At that competition she was way off the pace, presumably because she was still working on the arm.

Based on the numbers I'm not sure that I'm seeing a huge advantage for her over the other competitors. The Belgian who's been quoted in most articles isn't in the same league as the top competitors regardless of whether Hubbard is there or not.

Or am I looking at the wrong stats?

Link to these stats ?

How old was he at the time ? How old were the competitors?

[ZedLeg]

It was from her own wiki and the wikis for the tournaments. I won't be responding to you again if you keep misgendering her.

[Dromedary66]

Olympics admission should be based on the candidates' sex, not gender.

[pquinn]

Given the physical state of the 'athlete' involved they haven't got their advantage by training or technique.

They've arrived at an unfair advantage by medical intervention.

[Tony Starks]

ZedLeg said:

Right so I've looked at the stats and it would seem that Hubbards weights were on a par with what was being lifted by the top three competitors at the last WC before she broke her arm. At that competition she was way off the pace, presumably because she was still working on the arm.

Based on the numbers I'm not sure that I'm seeing a huge advantage for her over the other competitors. The Belgian who's been quoted in most articles isn't in the same league as the top competitors regardless of whether Hubbard is there or not.

Or am I looking at the wrong stats?

Actually looking at it again, I don't think the Belgian woman would even be competing against Hubbard, unless the Olympc weight classes are different. I don't know enough about weight lifting to be sure.

Edited by ZedLeg on Tuesday 22 June 09:45

Yet, since 2017 she's pretty much got golds and silvers. The NZ Olympic weightlifting choices were on the news tonight and you could tell all there hard work was overshadowed by Hubbard and they were dreading any of the NZ press asking on their thoughts.