First transgender athlete to compete at Olympics

[chrispmartha]

Northernboy said:

GroundZero said:

In a free opinion society in which we largely are, I can hold the opinion that individuals who think they are a 'woman' whilst they are a biological male have mental health issues.

It’s listed in the DSM as a mental health condition. Those trying to claim otherwise need a good argument as to why it’s significantly different from anorexia, which is a very similar condition regarding lack of comfort in one’s own body.

I’ve also had women ask why it is any different to a white person “blacking up”. Both are cases of someone from a more privileged group acting as though they are a member of a more oppressed group.

Why is it to be celebrated when Eddie Izzard says that he is a woman yet condemned when Rachel Dolezal says she’s black?

Oh and just to add, the NHS, you know the National Health Service where we live disagrees with you.

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/

"Gender dysphoria is not a mental illness"

[chrispmartha]

Trackdayer said:

chrispmartha said:

You have no idea what the vast majority of people think.

Actually I do. Just have a read of any of the comments on "trans" news articles or Facebook posts.

95% of the replies are along the lines of "there are only 2 genders"

Then there's a small number of people with coloured hair raging to the contrary.

This is partly why Corbyn wasn't elected by the way. Because his party are in the tiny minority who believe in this stuff.

Thats is a laughable post even by your standards.

"Actually I do. Just have a read of any of the comments on "trans" news articles or Facebook posts."



You r posts make more sense if that's where you're forming your opinion from

[ZedLeg]

MC Bodge said:

ZedLeg said:

Prove it.

Would you mind elaborating on what your connection to Trans-gender is?

I have seen a lot of your posts about it, and you obviously feel strongly about it, but you appear to have ducked questions about the fairness of trans-women (of varying states of transition) competing against women.

I'm part of the LGBT community and I'll defend anyone who I think is being victimised for who they are.

Trans people are subject to a frankly insane amount of abuse and ridicule in general but it has really ramped up over the last few years. I'll always speak up for them.

[MC Bodge]

ZedLeg said:

My view is that what's happening now isn't an end point but part of a process, we should let the relevant authorities do the research and if the rules need to change again then so be it. It may be that the way we classify sports people changes but to do it with the kind of knee jerk judgement that has been shown in this thread will hurt more people than it will help.

So you don't actually necessarily agree with the NZ trans-woman competing in the women's weighltifting at the Olympics?

I would argue that the decision to allow it, and other arguments around the issue, are doing far more damage to various long-standing issues of prejudice and discrimination than they are solving.

[ZedLeg]

MC Bodge said:

ZedLeg said:

My view is that what's happening now isn't an end point but part of a process, we should let the relevant authorities do the research and if the rules need to change again then so be it. It may be that the way we classify sports people changes but to do it with the kind of knee jerk judgement that has been shown in this thread will hurt more people than it will help.

So you don't actually necessarily agree with the NZ trans-woman competing in the women's weighltifting at the Olympics?

I would argue that the decision to allow it, and other arguments around the issue, are doing far more damage to various long-standing issues of prejudice and discrimination than they are solving.

I do think that transwomen should be allowed to compete in women's sport but that's just my opinion. It's up to the various governing bodies to decide if this is fair or not.

[MC Bodge]

ZedLeg said:

I'm part of the LGBT community and I'll defend anyone who I think is being victimised for who they are.

Trans people are subject to a frankly insane amount of abuse and ridicule in general but it has really ramped up over the last few years. I'll always speak up for them.

Thanks for answering.

I've never seen LGB as being the same as Transgender. They strike me as being very different. Transgender appears to be relatively rare too.

I do wonder if what is referred to as "gender" is sometimes actually just "personality".

ps. The acronym used to encompass all of those aspects of different people appears to have grown every time I see it.

Edited by MC Bodge on Wednesday 23 June 11:58

[ZedLeg]

MC Bodge said:

ZedLeg said:

I'm part of the LGBT community and I'll defend anyone who I think is being victimised for who they are.

Trans people are subject to a frankly insane amount of abuse and ridicule in general but it has really ramped up over the last few years. I'll always speak up for them.

Thanks for answering.

I've never seen LGB as being the same as Transgender. They strike me as being very different. Transgender appears to be relatively rare too.

ps. The acronym used to encompass all of those aspects of people appears to have grown every time I see it.

You're right, as time has gone on and it's been easier for people to come out it's become more of a catch all community for anyone who's gender/sexual identity doesn't fall into the cishet mainstream. It's by no means monolithic and there is probably as much disagreement about how things should be from within than from outside but it's still mostly a safer place for a lot of vulnerable people to face the world than on their own. That's how I think about it anyway.

[Gecko1978]

chrispmartha said:

Oh and just to add, the NHS, you know the National Health Service where we live disagrees with you.

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/

"Gender dysphoria is not a mental illness"

It states it not a mental illness then goes on to list a whole host of symptoms of mental illness.

I think the logic is an illness had a cure, in this case we don't want to cure people we want their identity to not cause them anxiety or unease. Its of course a delicate subject and I don't want to cause an offence but note the NHS says "gender identity" they do not say gender. So how you identify can and is flexible, what you are is less flexible

[Gecko1978]

ZedLeg said:

I'm part of the LGBT community and I'll defend anyone who I think is being victimised for who they are.

Trans people are subject to a frankly insane amount of abuse and ridicule in general but it has really ramped up over the last few years. I'll always speak up for them.

The abuse is not acceptable and I suspect trans people are victims of abuse far greater than other groups. No one on here I hope is suggesting its not unacceptable.

What I and others are saying it Laurel Hubbard has an unfair advantage to other women due to being trans and should not be allowed to compete in the same event as it deprives other women of a rightful fair chance at victory.

All the meds in the world won't change what Laurel physically is and thats the issue. So sadly she can not compete fairly. If she wins gold she has to look other competitors in the eye.

[ZedLeg]

Gecko1978 said:

ZedLeg said:

I'm part of the LGBT community and I'll defend anyone who I think is being victimised for who they are.

Trans people are subject to a frankly insane amount of abuse and ridicule in general but it has really ramped up over the last few years. I'll always speak up for them.

The abuse is not acceptable and I suspect trans people are victims of abuse far greater than other groups. No one on here I hope is suggesting its not unacceptable.

Judging by some of the comments, I think you're hoping in vain tbh.

[rover 623gsi]

ZedLeg said:

MC Bodge said:

ZedLeg said:

Prove it.

Would you mind elaborating on what your connection to Trans-gender is?

I have seen a lot of your posts about it, and you obviously feel strongly about it, but you appear to have ducked questions about the fairness of trans-women (of varying states of transition) competing against women.

I'm part of the LGBT community and I'll defend anyone who I think is being victimised for who they are.

Trans people are subject to a frankly insane amount of abuse and ridicule in general but it has really ramped up over the last few years. I'll always speak up for them.

I’ll take it you’re not a fan of the LGB Alliance then?

[MC Bodge]

Gecko1978 said:

The abuse is not acceptable and I suspect trans people are victims of abuse far greater than other groups. No one on here I hope is suggesting its not unacceptable.

What I and others are saying it Laurel Hubbard has an unfair advantage to other women due to being trans and should not be allowed to compete in the same event as it deprives other women of a rightful fair chance at victory.

All the meds in the world won't change what Laurel physically is and thats the issue. So sadly she can not compete fairly. If she wins gold she has to look other competitors in the eye.

And it seems counter-productive in terms of improving matters in the eyes of the public...

[ZedLeg]

rover 623gsi said:

ZedLeg said:

MC Bodge said:

ZedLeg said:

Prove it.

Would you mind elaborating on what your connection to Trans-gender is?

I have seen a lot of your posts about it, and you obviously feel strongly about it, but you appear to have ducked questions about the fairness of trans-women (of varying states of transition) competing against women.

I'm part of the LGBT community and I'll defend anyone who I think is being victimised for who they are.

Trans people are subject to a frankly insane amount of abuse and ridicule in general but it has really ramped up over the last few years. I'll always speak up for them.

I’ll take it you’re not a fan of the LGB Alliance then?

I am not.

[Gecko1978]

ZedLeg said:

You're right, as time has gone on and it's been easier for people to come out it's become more of a catch all community for anyone who's gender/sexual identity doesn't fall into the cishet mainstream. It's by no means monolithic and there is probably as much disagreement about how things should be from within than from outside but it's still mostly a safer place for a lot of vulnerable people to face the world than on their own. That's how I think about it anyway.

On this note I would say things have come a long way in 20 years, pride is now mainstream, being a member of the LGBTQ community is acceptable to most people (in the UK), and society as a whole is better off without petty conflict. I have worked in the same building as a trans women, there may be more I just don't know, L and G colleagues are not uncommon at all though of course you tend not to annouce it so unless you say my partner indicsting they are the same etc we can never know. I still assume at my age most people are married and herto but when they correct you its fine. How would you know different.

Still this evolution of understanding needs to also include some basic tennants where sport is concerned. While there is a gay games (no idea why there needs to be Tom Daily competed in the main Olympics I believe he is gay), a trans games would seem fair to all.

[Trackdayer]

chrispmartha said:

Thats is a laughable post even by your standards.

"Actually I do. Just have a read of any of the comments on "trans" news articles or Facebook posts."



You r posts make more sense if that's where you're forming your opinion from

Okay, if you don't accept people's social media posts as being in any way linked to their opinions, fine

What evidence do you have to show that I'm wrong? ie most people do believe gender can be changed?

[chrispmartha]

Trackdayer said:

chrispmartha said:

Thats is a laughable post even by your standards.

"Actually I do. Just have a read of any of the comments on "trans" news articles or Facebook posts."



You r posts make more sense if that's where you're forming your opinion from

Okay, if you don't accept people's social media posts as being in any way linked to their opinions, fine

What evidence do you have to show that I'm wrong? ie most people do believe gender can be changed?

I don’t think social media posts = proof of what the majority think.

Gender can be changed, legally, that’s just a fact.

[Gecko1978]

ZedLeg said:

Judging by some of the comments, I think you're hoping in vain tbh.

Trying to be polite, some have used slurs and should not, however I hope it doesn't stiffle the debate. Clockworkcupcake used to be on here Joanne is trans and always made some very clear points and arguments sadly it denigrated into class of trans women trying to trick men into sex which frankly is a warped fantasy.

What we see today is not a warped fanatasy its a 42 year old trans women competing in top flight womens sport when peak competitions are in their 20s. Also as an aside I wonder pre her transition did Laurel use anaabolics, they are very popular in powerflifting and body buildjng circles, I can't help wonder of she also used them for many years pre transition.

[Trackdayer]

chrispmartha said:

I don’t think social media posts = proof of what the majority think.

Gender can be changed, legally, that’s just a fact.

So if there's a media article on a transgender issue and 95% of the hundreds of comments are derisory, you don't think that's proof of public opinion? Bizarre.

Gender can be changed legally, nobody is debating that. I'm saying the majority of people still see somebody born as male to be male no matter what they chop off, wear or have injected into them.

[chrispmartha]

Trackdayer said:

chrispmartha said:

I don’t think social media posts = proof of what the majority think.

Gender can be changed, legally, that’s just a fact.

So if there's a media article on a transgender issue and 95% of the hundreds of comments are derisory, you don't think that's proof of public opinion? Bizarre.

Gender can be changed legally, nobody is debating that. I'm saying the majority of people still see somebody born as male to be male no matter what they chop off, wear or have injected into them.

And Im asking you how you know what the majority think?

Theres a few polls on yougov,

Heres one

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/trackers/how-...

“
For the following question, a transgender woman is someone who was male at birth, but now identifies as a woman. To what extent, if at all, do you agree with the statement, "A transgender woman is a woman"?

51% agree, 15% don’t know

Edit to add if you filter it by women asked the numbers agreeing are higher

Now im sure you’ll rubbish the poll but at least im providing something other than “I read it on Facebook “

Edited by chrispmartha on Wednesday 23 June 12:41

[ZedLeg]

Gecko1978 said:

ZedLeg said:

Judging by some of the comments, I think you're hoping in vain tbh.

Trying to be polite, some have used slurs and should not, however I hope it doesn't stiffle the debate. Clockworkcupcake used to be on here Joanne is trans and always made some very clear points and arguments sadly it denigrated into class of trans women trying to trick men into sex which frankly is a warped fantasy.

What we see today is not a warped fanatasy its a 42 year old trans women competing in top flight womens sport when peak competitions are in their 20s. Also as an aside I wonder pre her transition did Laurel use anaabolics, they are very popular in powerflifting and body buildjng circles, I can't help wonder of she also used them for many years pre transition.

I remember seeing clockworkcupcake around, I didn't realise she'd left.

I've stated my opinion on the situation that started this thread, any trans person who sticks their head over the parapet leaves themselves open to criticism or abuse.