First transgender athlete to compete at Olympics

[hyphen]

ZedLeg said:

I remember seeing clockworkcupcake around, I didn't realise she'd left.

I've stated my opinion on the situation that started this thread, any trans person who sticks their head over the parapet leaves themselves open to criticism or abuse.

I think you underestimated feminists and women in general. They will chop off all heads

We men don't even need to get involved in this debate, the women shall rise up shortly.

[g3org3y]

ZedLeg said:

Northernboy said:

ZedLeg said:

As has happened a few times in this thread your opinion appears to have been swayed by what amounts to propaganda from the anti trans movement.

There isn't anyone selling people on transitioning to solve mental health issues.

Mermaids are.

Prove it.

Interview with Marcus Evans who formerly served as Consultant Psychotherapist and Associate Clinical Director of Adult and Adolescent Service at the Tavistock and Portman NHS Trust.

What are your thoughts on the Keira Bell case BTW?

Edited by g3org3y on Wednesday 23 June 12:47

[Randy Winkman]

chrispmartha said:

Trackdayer said:

chrispmartha said:

Thats is a laughable post even by your standards.

"Actually I do. Just have a read of any of the comments on "trans" news articles or Facebook posts."



You r posts make more sense if that's where you're forming your opinion from

Okay, if you don't accept people's social media posts as being in any way linked to their opinions, fine

What evidence do you have to show that I'm wrong? ie most people do believe gender can be changed?

I don’t think social media posts = proof of what the majority think.

Gender can be changed, legally, that’s just a fact.

Does Trackdayer think that he sees everything that's on Facebook?

[98elise]

BobsPigeon said:

GroundZero said:

Not only in Athletics but when England women's rugby team played a boys team, I think they lost substantially to a school year10 team (ie. under 15) ? (please correct if wrong).

There was also a storyline a few years ago (had to look it up again for the numbers), where the USA world champions womens football team were beaten roughly 5-2 and then 5-0 by some boy's under 15 teams!

Also ManUTD's women's team lost 9-0 against an under 15 boys team in 2018

This should not be a case of rubbishing the women's sport but should go some way to show the physical difference between a man and a woman. And is the reason that competition involving physical ability needs to be separated on 'sex'.

A bloke dressed up to look like a woman, or a bloke who has mental health issues and simply wants to think he's a women, is simply not a woman. There is no amount of wokery that will turn the science/biology in to something that it isn't.

I think this thread shows that most reject the notion that blokes should be allowed in the women's category - it is just plain weird and abstract to even have to write such a thing!

I can't remember where I heard it or how true it is but it's been said that thousands of men have run under the women's marathon WR (which is 2hr14 and fking impressive what ever genitalia you have) which sort of highlights the total annihilation women's sport would suffer if they continue down this road.

The top male "fun" runner at the 2019 London marathon ran 2hr17, that's a club runner, not entered as an elite (although clearly a v fit bloke), that's considerably quicker than the vast majority of the elite and pro womens race.

John McEnroe once said Serena Williams wouldn't be in the top 700 if she played against men. He wasn't being flippant.

[ZedLeg]

g3org3y said:

Interview with Marcus Evans who formerly served as Consultant Psychotherapist and Associate Clinical Director of Adult and Adolescent Service at the Tavistock and Portman NHS Trust.

What are your thoughts on the Keira Bell case BTW?

Edited by g3org3y on Wednesday 23 June 12:47

Ok so, An NHS run clinic being accused of fast tracking transitions for young people already in the system isn't the same as claiming a charity that helps young people with gender issues is pushing people towards transitioning as a fix for mental health issues.

The clinic also faced claims of holding up treatment for people so there's clearly more to the story.

As for the last thing, it's very sad that this girl feels like she was mislead into transitioning when other treatments may have been better for her. You always have to be very careful when dealing with young people, especially when dealing with something as life changing as transitioning. I wouldn't want to say anymore as I don't know enough about the specific issues.

[anonymous-user]

ZedLeg said:

As has happened a few times in this thread your opinion appears to have been swayed by what amounts to propaganda from the anti trans movement.

There isn't anyone selling people on transitioning to solve mental health issues. It's actually incredibly hard to start transitioning in this country. You either have to sit on an NHS waiting list for years or have the thousands of pounds it costs to pay for it yourself. There are currently no facilities in the UK for F to M bottom surgery. The high suicide rates for trans people are due to a number of factors and can in no way be generalised down to people who were talked into transitioning and didn't really want to.

There is also no movement to shame lesbians who would rather not have sex with someone who still has a penis. Weirdly, trans women don't want to have sex with people who don't want to have sex with them. There may be some individuals who have stated sentiments to that effect but imo it's mostly an urban legend that's been used to paint trans women as predators.

Stats for these high suicide rates ?

Lesbians are indeed called transphobic for not including “trans lesbians “ in their dating pool / social life / clubs etc.

[rover 623gsi]

98elise said:

John McEnroe once said Serena Williams wouldn't be in the top 700 if she played against men. He wasn't being flippant.

indeed
...

“iActually it’s funny, because Andy Murray, he’s been joking about myself and him playing a match. I’m like, ‘Andy, seriously, are you kidding me?’ For me, men’s tennis and women’s tennis are completely, almost, two separate sports,” Serena Williams said.

“If I were to play Andy Murray, I would lose 6-0, 6-0 in five to six minutes, maybe 10 minutes. No, it’s true. It’s a completely different sport. The men are a lot faster and they serve harder, they hit harder, it’s just a different game.”

https://www.essentiallysports.com/tennis-news-wta-...

[London424]

98elise said:

BobsPigeon said:

GroundZero said:

Not only in Athletics but when England women's rugby team played a boys team, I think they lost substantially to a school year10 team (ie. under 15) ? (please correct if wrong).

There was also a storyline a few years ago (had to look it up again for the numbers), where the USA world champions womens football team were beaten roughly 5-2 and then 5-0 by some boy's under 15 teams!

Also ManUTD's women's team lost 9-0 against an under 15 boys team in 2018

This should not be a case of rubbishing the women's sport but should go some way to show the physical difference between a man and a woman. And is the reason that competition involving physical ability needs to be separated on 'sex'.

A bloke dressed up to look like a woman, or a bloke who has mental health issues and simply wants to think he's a women, is simply not a woman. There is no amount of wokery that will turn the science/biology in to something that it isn't.

I think this thread shows that most reject the notion that blokes should be allowed in the women's category - it is just plain weird and abstract to even have to write such a thing!

I can't remember where I heard it or how true it is but it's been said that thousands of men have run under the women's marathon WR (which is 2hr14 and fking impressive what ever genitalia you have) which sort of highlights the total annihilation women's sport would suffer if they continue down this road.

The top male "fun" runner at the 2019 London marathon ran 2hr17, that's a club runner, not entered as an elite (although clearly a v fit bloke), that's considerably quicker than the vast majority of the elite and pro womens race.

John McEnroe once said Serena Williams wouldn't be in the top 700 if she played against men. He wasn't being flippant.

Serena said in an interview she would get 6-0, 6-0 by Andy Murray. It looks like the same sport but it’s just not even close.

[anonymous-user]

ZedLeg said:

Thousands of trans women use women's changing rooms and bathrooms every day. It was never an issue until the recent uptick in anti trans rhetoric. Now not just trans women but more masculine cis women are being questioned and attacked in bathrooms and changing rooms. Weird how that happens.

Hundreds of transsexuals used women’s toilets every day with the full awareness and either sympathy or trepidation of women. That’s why it was never a issue , not men I’d’ing as women.

Again do you have any links to these people being questioned and attacked? I notice you use the Americanism “bathrooms” a lot , are you lifting this from abroad ?

[chrispmartha]

Iwantafusca said:

ZedLeg said:

Thousands of trans women use women's changing rooms and bathrooms every day. It was never an issue until the recent uptick in anti trans rhetoric. Now not just trans women but more masculine cis women are being questioned and attacked in bathrooms and changing rooms. Weird how that happens.

Hundreds of transsexuals used women’s toilets every day with the full awareness and either sympathy or trepidation of women. That’s why it was never a issue , not men I’d’ing as women.

Eh?

[anonymous-user]

Re mermaids charity mentioned above.

https://www.spiked-online.com/2020/07/03/mermaids-...

https://www.womenarehuman.com/mermaids-backpedals-...


This explains how Mermaids misuse statistics about child suicide attempts.

fairplayforwomen.com/mermaids-tg-lying-unprofessional/


The chief executive of Mermaids, Susie Green, took her own gender-confused son, Jack, to Thailand when he was sixteen to have his penis removed, a procedure that is illegal in Britain and now illegal in Thailand. Before this surgery, Jack had gone on puberty blockers at age 13 which stunted his development. In a BBC documentary “Transsexual Teen, Beauty Queen” Green is videoed discussing his (since removed) micro-penis while laughing.


Mermaids encouragement of early interventions in children re: puberty blockers; hormones; surgery is not in line with the policy of NHS GIDS who adhere to “watchful waiting”

Mermaids subscribes to self-ID and the belief that you are a boy or girl if you say that you are, as a result of a feeling that you have; however many schools base access on the basis of sex, not gender ID. This includes sex segregated spaces like toilets, changing rooms, accommodation on residential trips and some sports.


Jut 5 minutes online brings up a lot of disturbing info on this group.

[ZedLeg]

I'm going to assume that women are humans and fair play for women might have their own agenda and I don't see Spiked as a credible source either.

[Gecko1978]

ZedLeg said:

g3org3y said:

Interview with Marcus Evans who formerly served as Consultant Psychotherapist and Associate Clinical Director of Adult and Adolescent Service at the Tavistock and Portman NHS Trust.

What are your thoughts on the Keira Bell case BTW?

Edited by g3org3y on Wednesday 23 June 12:47

Ok so, An NHS run clinic being accused of fast tracking transitions for young people already in the system isn't the same as claiming a charity that helps young people with gender issues is pushing people towards transitioning as a fix for mental health issues.

The clinic also faced claims of holding up treatment for people so there's clearly more to the story.

As for the last thing, it's very sad that this girl feels like she was mislead into transitioning when other treatments may have been better for her. You always have to be very careful when dealing with young people, especially when dealing with something as life changing as transitioning. I wouldn't want to say anymore as I don't know enough about the specific issues.

If you listend to it, the whistle blower was saying the charity was pushing children who may have had underlying issues not related to gender to transition, by assisting them with answeting questions from psychiatrists which would then allow them to move on to hormone therapy. The whistle blower claimed the charity was influencing clinical practices. Both of those things are wrong and I am not sure why you would push someome to transition without considering other issues. He also noted the recent change aas a growth in female to male transition which was practically non existent 20 years ago. If we assume sexual orientation, gender identity differences are perfectly naturally occurring then a sharp shift in a short space of time does bare scrutiny.

[anonymous-user]

ZedLeg said:

I'm going to assume that women are humans and fair play for women might have their own agenda and I don't see Spiked as a credible source either.

Because they don’t parrot the transwomen are women mantra ? And believe in safeguards for children also.


Fair enough

[ZedLeg]

Just in general for Spiked, it's pretty telling that you think every decision I make is connected to the issues we're discussing here.

[Trackdayer]

Should we really be encouraging trans athletes as potential rolemodels, at a time when so many trans people are comitting suicide and/or regretting their transition?

Maybe it's a time to re-think the whole concept.

[Trackdayer]

8.4L 154 said:

Encouraging: yes, positive role models are essential for good development and wellbeing of the next generation.

An international hate campaign against those who go before, not so much.

So we need rolemodels that encourage a lifestyle that often leads to massive regret, irreversible change and suicide?

I would probably question that.

[Gecko1978]

8.4L 154 said:

Trackdayer said:

So we need rolemodels that encourage a lifestyle that often leads to massive regret, irreversible change and suicide?

I would probably question that.

There is plenty of evedence that trans people with positive role models and support and who are not subject to hate, exclusion and derision excel and live happy lives.

It's a pity the 2020's seem to be rephrasing all the minority hate campaigns that have gone before against Trans people.

Being Trans is likely very hard even with support and there has to be safe gaurds in place to prevent people causing harm to themselves. If you watched the whistle blower pod cast you get his clear opinion that some charaties were pushing transition when the patient was not perhaps trans but had other underlying isssues which made them feel like transistion was correct for them when in fact the root cause of there anxiety was not gender related. To help people game a clinical review to allow them to gain hormone treatment is dangerous. He also said puberty would in many casese resolve the anxiety theae people faced so to block that was the wrong thing to do but mermaids were pushing an agenda.

Its not trans hate to question a young persons motivies and issues its called being a responsible adult. If someone wants to transition and that desire is not due to other mental health or cognitive issues then they should be supported. But they should be protected from their own flawed logic too. If teans suicide is high then perhaps its because some of the trans patients are not trans but mentally ill and need help, which gender reassignment will not deliver.

[RobbieTheTruth]

ZedLeg said:

MC Bodge said:

ZedLeg said:

I do think that transwomen should be allowed to compete in women's sport but that's just my opinion. It's up to the various governing bodies to decide if this is fair or not.

If you had a daughter who trained all her life to make the Olympics team, then a 40 year old ex-male comes along who can out lift her with ease (mainly due to strength training whilst having a male body, male bone structure,m male genetics and going through male puberty) you'd be ok with that?

If there were 3 ex-males competing in the same competition (which is highly likely bu the time the next Olymics comes round), lifting weights she couldn't get near, what would you tell her? Keep trying - or should she just give up?

Let's not even get started on the ethics of people born male fighting against women in combat sport, because you'll run away rather than debate that.

[RobbieTheTruth]

98elise said:

John McEnroe once said Serena Williams wouldn't be in the top 700 if she played against men. He wasn't being flippant.

He did, and there was a lot of controversy and calls for him to be sacked for expressing that opinion.

Even though it was a logical, sound and likely correct opinion based on the following:

"1998: Karsten Braasch vs. the Williams sisters

Another event dubbed a "Battle of the Sexes" took place during the 1998 Australian Open between Karsten Braasch and the Williams sisters. Venus and Serena Williams had claimed that they could beat any male player ranked outside the world's top 200, so Braasch, then ranked 203rd, challenged them both. Braasch was described by one journalist as "a man whose training regime centered around a pack of cigarettes and more than a couple of bottles of ice cold lager".[The matches took place on court number 12 in Melbourne Park,after Braasch had finished a round of golf and two shandies.

He first took on Serena and after leading 5–0, beat her 6–1. Venus then walked on court and again Braasch was victorious, this time winning 6–2.
Braasch said afterwards, "500 and above, no chance". He added that he had played like someone ranked 600th in order to keep the game "fun" and that the big difference was that men can chase down shots much easier and put spin on the ball that female players can't handle. The Williams sisters adjusted their claim to beating men outside the top 350."