First transgender athlete to compete at Olympics

[MC Bodge]

ReallyReallyGood said:

MC Bodge said:

There is actually no real argument about this.

It shouldn't be about a person's view on trans gender people.

It is about categorisation of sports participation.

Exactly. I’m amazed it’s even a debate.

It isn't really.

Even the Moral Maze didn't spent too long discussing the fairness of the categorisation. It was that obvious.

Even a Trans-woman contributor made the point about biological sex, as opposed to gender, and it being incorrect to have trans-women competing against women in many sports. I wouldn't magine that she is trans-phobic.

[RobbieTheTruth]

8.4L 154 said:

rover 623gsi said:

there really is no comparison between men and women

I dont know of anyone saying otherwise.

Are you claiming that HRT, and Testosterone suppression have zero effect? Or are you going to maintain and keep attacking the straw man that trans women in sport have the same performance as cisgender men.

Everyone knows they'll have an effect!

World Rugby did a lot of biochemical modelling studies in this area and concluded these suppressors don't get anywhere close in closing the distance in the advantages someone born male has over a woman, and therefore concluded it unsafe to allow trans-females to play with females, due to severe injury risks for those born female.

This of course, was already very obvious and could (and has since sport began) been concluded without such trials.


Still - nobody who claims they support trans-women competing among women will say they'd morally be fine with a male pro heavyweight boxer transitioning and competing among the women.

Edited by RobbieTheTruth on Wednesday 23 June 21:31

[Gecko1978]

8.4L 154 said:

Gecko1978 said:

letting Laurel Hubbard compete is like letting Lewis Hamilton have this years car and other drivers get one from 2 years ago but saying you cant complain because lewis thinks his car is the same.

Out in the parking lot Lewis can think his car is whatever he wants but as soon as it comes to completion then his car needs to be the same the rules are there in motorsport to allow different designs but Lewis can't fit a turbo charged V10 to his car with ground effects and an electric boost and say well on the outside it looks like a Ferrari and a McLaren.

This should apply to all competition, if I were playing armature rugby I dont want to play someone who is going to literally destroy me. I don't want to play amateur tennis an have my opponent out serve me every time and not because they are fitter because they were born a man.

Ignoring you horrifically dehumanising analogy you do realise that Laurel hubbard is competing within the rules set out by the sports governing body and IOC.

I do and I can also see that the rules as they stand disadvantage women and will be detrimental to the sport. Laurel Hubbard is not and can never be a women, she is a trans women and that like it or not is not the same and like my F1 analogy in the parking lot Laurel can do what she likes, use any bathroom, where any cloths, not be discriminated against in the work place. On the track then its a different issue.

[Gecko1978]

8.4L 154 said:

rover 623gsi said:

there really is no comparison between men and women

I dont know of anyone saying otherwise.

Are you claiming that HRT, and Testosterone suppression have zero effect? Or are you going to maintain and keep attacking the straw man that trans women in sport have the same performance as cisgender men.

Laurel Hubbard does not have same performance as the best men we know this because when she was one she was not that good. Now she is a transwomen she is beating women by a large margin so stands to reason she should compete with others who are the same not men but other trans women.

HRT and Testostoroine have an effect sure but as Joe Rogan summed up when making a fist, all the drugs in the world wont change the size of his hands and note will the change Laurel into a women, therefore she should not compete with them

[RobbieTheTruth]

Gecko1978 said:

8.4L 154 said:

rover 623gsi said:

there really is no comparison between men and women

I dont know of anyone saying otherwise.

Are you claiming that HRT, and Testosterone suppression have zero effect? Or are you going to maintain and keep attacking the straw man that trans women in sport have the same performance as cisgender men.

Laurel Hubbard does not have same performance as the best men we know this because when she was one she was not that good. Now she is a transwomen she is beating women by a large margin so stands to reason she should compete with others who are the same not men but other trans women.

HRT and Testostoroine have an effect sure but as Joe Rogan summed up when making a fist, all the drugs in the world wont change the size of his hands and note will the change Laurel into a women, therefore she should not compete with them

Plus they are 43, in a competition where the average age is 24.

Ultimately the scenario is now as follows:

Hubbard wouldn't make the Olympic Team as a male as they are too old and nowhere near strong enough.

Hubbard will likely medal as a female as they were born a male (despite being near 20 years older than the average age in the competition)

Edited by RobbieTheTruth on Wednesday 23 June 21:53

Edited by RobbieTheTruth on Wednesday 23 June 22:04

Edited by RobbieTheTruth on Wednesday 23 June 22:05

[Northernboy]

ZedLeg said:

Prove it.

Why? That’s what they do, they push vulnerable, confused children and teens into irreversible drugs and surgery and they base it on 1950s gender stereotypes.

The mask has slipped now on trans activism, everyone can see that it’s simply about misogyny, powerless low intelligence men at last finding an acceptable way to abuse women, and the tide has turned.

Stonewall’s been found out, Mermaids has been found out, and groups such as the LGB alliance are leading the push-back.

I’ve supported them and others morally and financially. I’ve funded some of the recent court cases, and will continue to do so.

[Northernboy]

chrispmartha said:

Oh and just to add, the NHS, you know the National Health Service where we live disagrees with you.

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/

"Gender dysphoria is not a mental illness"

No, it’s a psychological condition, pretty similar to anorexia.

[Northernboy]

MC Bodge said:

Thanks for answering.

I've never seen LGB as being the same as Transgender. They strike me as being very different. Transgender appears to be relatively rare too.

I do wonder if what is referred to as "gender" is sometimes actually just "personality".

ps. The acronym used to encompass all of those aspects of different people appears to have grown every time I see it.

Edited by MC Bodge on Wednesday 23 June 11:58

As per Matthew Paris’ article in the Times last week, Trans issues have nothing to do with LGB ones. Trans activists are shaming lesbians for only wanting to be with females. Stonewall is trying to redefine same-sex attraction as “same gender.”

They made it a long way in the shadows, but now that it’s known about that game is up.

[Northernboy]

98elise said:

I didn't know about that one. I know there had been previous "battle of the sexes" exhibition matches.

Before McEnroe said anything I actually thought it would be much closer. I'm not a sports fan really so I don't know how top flight sports compare on stats.

That said even if the Williams sisters wouldn't figure in the top 700
men, that still puts them above about 3.5bn men.

I’m in my 40s. I work sitting down for twelve hours a day, and never rowed at a level above university.

Until six months ago I could still beat the female world record for a 10km row.

A mediocre male athlete can beat every woman in the world in some sports.

[Gecko1978]

Northernboy said:

98elise said:

I didn't know about that one. I know there had been previous "battle of the sexes" exhibition matches.

Before McEnroe said anything I actually thought it would be much closer. I'm not a sports fan really so I don't know how top flight sports compare on stats.

That said even if the Williams sisters wouldn't figure in the top 700
men, that still puts them above about 3.5bn men.

I’m in my 40s. I work sitting down for twelve hours a day, and never rowed at a level above university.

Until six months ago I could still beat the female world record for a 10km row.

A mediocre male athlete can beat every woman in the world in some sports.

42 here an average in the extream gym goer and I am certian I can bench more than any of the women at my gym, unless Laurel Hubbard has a british cousin. Where as there are guys benching 2x what I can (110kg). Men an Women are physically different, mentally we could well be very similar but that does not make the whole the same (stickers on the F1 car so to speak.....just to dehumanise). Sports and Basic rights are not the same. I want trans people to be treated with respect I dont want them to come to harm or be denied support. But I also dont want sports to be undermined given at an eleit level people put there life into it.

[gregs656]

8.4L 154 said:

I dont know of anyone saying otherwise.

Are you claiming that HRT, and Testosterone suppression have zero effect? Or are you going to maintain and keep attacking the straw man that trans women in sport have the same performance as cisgender men.

HRT and testosterone suppression, along with some surgery, allow many trans women to live as women. Which is pretty amazing, and I am all for it.

Competitive sport though highlights what we can't achieve, which is changing biological sex, and I do not think it undermines trans rights to understand that.

I also think at a grass roots and social level, many sports clubs and local leagues rightly welcome and encourage any participation and I do not think it would make sense to bar or discourage trans people from those events any more than it makes sense to ban people who use PEDs to impress people at their local gym.

[Northernboy]

Gecko1978 said:

42 here an average in the extream gym goer and I am certian I can bench more than any of the women at my gym, unless Laurel Hubbard has a british cousin. Where as there are guys benching 2x what I can (110kg). Men an Women are physically different, mentally we could well be very similar but that does not make the whole the same (stickers on the F1 car so to speak.....just to dehumanise). Sports and Basic rights are not the same. I want trans people to be treated with respect I dont want them to come to harm or be denied support. But I also dont want sports to be undermined given at an eleit level people put there life into it.

I want them to be supported and feel safe too, but it can’t come at the expense of women’s rights.

[768]

8.4L 154 said:

I dont know of anyone saying otherwise.

Are you claiming that HRT, and Testosterone suppression have zero effect? Or are you going to maintain and keep attacking the straw man that trans women in sport have the same performance as cisgender men.

I'm 6'5 because I'm a man. No woman in my family is anywhere near as tall and it gives me a significant advantage in many sports.

What height would I be after HRT and testosterone suppression?

[Gecko1978]

gregs656 said:

8.4L 154 said:

I dont know of anyone saying otherwise.

Are you claiming that HRT, and Testosterone suppression have zero effect? Or are you going to maintain and keep attacking the straw man that trans women in sport have the same performance as cisgender men.

HRT and testosterone suppression, along with some surgery, allow many trans women to live as women. Which is pretty amazing, and I am all for it.

Competitive sport though highlights what we can't achieve, which is changing biological sex, and I do not think it undermines trans rights to understand that.

I also think at a grass roots and social level, many sports clubs and local leagues rightly welcome and encourage any participation and I do not think it would make sense to bar or discourage trans people from those events any more than it makes sense to ban people who use PEDs to impress people at their local gym.

I would disagree with you here as soon as an event has a 1st an second place an a prize be it money or a plastic trophy then you have to have a level field. Also my experience of gym users who take PED's its not to impress others its to basically become as strong as possible and or big. I have never used PEDs but its tempting at times but it would purely to be to see what I would look like. In away (small way) its like wondering what I would look like as a women, for me looking like an action figure is not so all encompassing that I take roids but I see why people do an its not to impress others.

[Newc]

8.4L 154 said:

Are you claiming that HRT, and Testosterone suppression have zero effect? Or are you going to maintain and keep attacking the straw man that trans women in sport have the same performance as cisgender men.

Apparently it needs saying on every page, so again:

There is no such thing as cisgender. There are women, there are men, there are trans-men, and trans-women.

That's it.

[Trackdayer]

768 said:

I'm 6'5 because I'm a man. No woman in my family is anywhere near as tall and it gives me a significant advantage in many sports.

What height would I be after HRT and testosterone suppression?

Can't use logic and reasoning against the rainbow people

[chrispmartha]

768 said:

8.4L 154 said:

I dont know of anyone saying otherwise.

Are you claiming that HRT, and Testosterone suppression have zero effect? Or are you going to maintain and keep attacking the straw man that trans women in sport have the same performance as cisgender men.

I'm 6'5 because I'm a man. No woman in my family is anywhere near as tall and it gives me a significant advantage in many sports.

What height would I be after HRT and testosterone suppression?

There are many tall women playing professional sport, should we bring in height restrictions in some sports like basketball and netball then?

Whichever side of the debate you are on, genetics will give certain athletes advantages over others.

[chrispmartha]

Trackdayer said:

768 said:

I'm 6'5 because I'm a man. No woman in my family is anywhere near as tall and it gives me a significant advantage in many sports.

What height would I be after HRT and testosterone suppression?

Can't use logic and reasoning against the rainbow people

Its not really logic and reason, unless you think tall women should be banned from certain sports?

[768]

chrispmartha said:

Its not really logic and reason, unless you think tall women should be banned from certain sports?

I think men should be banned from women's sport.

Height is just one attribute that differs between men and women and confers a sporting advantage for which there is no undoing.

[chrispmartha]

768 said:

chrispmartha said:

Its not really logic and reason, unless you think tall women should be banned from certain sports?

I think men should be banned from women's sport.

Height is just one attribute that differs between men and women and confers a sporting advantage for which there is no undoing.

Height is a daft metric to use for your argument though. Height differs betwen men and men.

I’m 5foot10, should a 6foot5 man be banned from playing certain sports against me.

Im not saying it supports transwomen in sports either, im saying its a daft metric to use.