First transgender athlete to compete at Olympics

[BobsPigeon]

Sport at the very highest level is a freak show of the genetic outliers, all with the fortune of being genetically gifted and extremely hardworking... But surely that makes it even more unfair when a fairly average male who identifies as female can waltz in and wipe the floor in a women's sport.

[chrispmartha]

Northernboy said:

Gecko1978 said:

42 here an average in the extream gym goer and I am certian I can bench more than any of the women at my gym, unless Laurel Hubbard has a british cousin. Where as there are guys benching 2x what I can (110kg). Men an Women are physically different, mentally we could well be very similar but that does not make the whole the same (stickers on the F1 car so to speak.....just to dehumanise). Sports and Basic rights are not the same. I want trans people to be treated with respect I dont want them to come to harm or be denied support. But I also dont want sports to be undermined given at an eleit level people put there life into it.

I want them to be supported and feel safe too, but it can’t come at the expense of women’s rights.

Forgive me if i think someone who uses the term ‘trannies’ is being disingenuous when he says he wants trans people to be supported.

[chrispmartha]

BobsPigeon said:

Sport at the very highest level is a freak show of the genetic outliers, all with the fortune of being genetically gifted and extremely hardworking... But surely that makes it even more unfair when a fairly average male who identifies as female can waltz in and wipe the floor in a women's sport.

Yes maybe so, that’s why i said height is a daft metric to use.

[768]

chrispmartha said:

768 said:

chrispmartha said:

Its not really logic and reason, unless you think tall women should be banned from certain sports?

I think men should be banned from women's sport.

Height is just one attribute that differs between men and women and confers a sporting advantage for which there is no undoing.

Height is a daft metric to use for your argument though. Height differs betwen men and men.

I’m 5foot10, should a 6foot5 man be banned from playing certain sports against me.

Im not saying it supports transwomen in sports either, im saying its a daft metric to use.

It's no more daft than looking at muscle mass, strength, bone density, other attributes that differ within the sexes and such that contribute to why we ban men from women's sport. It doesn't define the difference but it's part of the picture that illustrates why men aren't allowed to compete and why we shouldn't pretend men can change sex to compete.

This is about protecting women's sport, not short men's sport, but it could be if you really wanted - we have weight categories in boxing. Go and start a basketball league for people under 6' if you want and I'll fully support you telling tall people they can't join because they identify as being a little person.

[chrispmartha]

768 said:

chrispmartha said:

768 said:

chrispmartha said:

Its not really logic and reason, unless you think tall women should be banned from certain sports?

I think men should be banned from women's sport.

Height is just one attribute that differs between men and women and confers a sporting advantage for which there is no undoing.

Height is a daft metric to use for your argument though. Height differs betwen men and men.

I’m 5foot10, should a 6foot5 man be banned from playing certain sports against me.

Im not saying it supports transwomen in sports either, im saying its a daft metric to use.

It's no more daft than looking at muscle mass, strength, bone density, other attributes that differ within the sexes and such that contribute to why we ban men from women's sport. It doesn't define the difference but it's part of the picture that illustrates why men aren't allowed to compete.

This is about protecting women's sport, not short men's sport, but it could be if you really wanted - we have weight categories in boxing. Go and start a basketball league for people under 6' if you want and I'll fully support you telling tall people they can't join because they identify as being a little person.

Why would i start a league based on height, im not the one using it as a metric, which is why i said its not one that supports transwomen in sports either.

[768]

Don't start a league then.

But don't deny there are irreversible differences between men and women.

[BobsPigeon]

chrispmartha said:

BobsPigeon said:

Sport at the very highest level is a freak show of the genetic outliers, all with the fortune of being genetically gifted and extremely hardworking... But surely that makes it even more unfair when a fairly average male who identifies as female can waltz in and wipe the floor in a women's sport.

Yes maybe so, that’s why i said height is a daft metric to use.

Not if you're talking about a high jumper or basketball player, it's a clear advantage to be taller.

It's also a clear advantage to have been born a male and from central or North European genetic stock, your chances of being a world class high jumper if you're born in Thailand are virtually nill. Your chances of being a world class high jumper if you're a female are also virtually nill if there was no separate competition for females.

[Gecko1978]

chrispmartha said:

Forgive me if i think someone who uses the term ‘trannies’ is being disingenuous when he says he wants trans people to be supported.

I hope you are not implying I used that term. I have tried very hard to be respectful on this thread despite some frankly bat st crazy levels of whataboutory. We know there are differences between men and women which day today are actually not important but in certain settings these are an issue.
Sporting events even amateur tournaments
Prison settings (rare) but both parties can be at risk
Medical settings, where a person presents as a gender different to there biological sex.

If as I think most people do, we want trans people to be accepted and safe we also need to accept there are some differences and so do trans people. Groups like mermaids (based on the video posted earlier) seem to white wash over the differences to push the agenda. This can surely not be helpful for the trans community. Groups like the LGB Alliance have been labbled a hate group and yet its founders came from stonewall and perhaps rightly called out that sexual orientation (orientation appears to be the current acceptable term) and gender identity are very different things.

The investigation of the Tavistock threw up some very worrying issues. An the primary driver for this seems to be Trans is pushed as normal and valod for all but from a statistical point of view it is an outlier. As an outlier it needs more insight and understanding and this will ultimately help trans people feel more accepted in society.

[chrispmartha]

Gecko1978 said:

I hope you are not implying I used that term..

No, my reply was to Northernboy. That’s why i quoted him.

[chrispmartha]

BobsPigeon said:

Not if you're talking about a high jumper or basketball player, it's a clear advantage to be taller.
.

I agree it’s an advantage, and one that many sportswomen have over other sportswomen.

[Gecko1978]

chrispmartha said:

BobsPigeon said:

Not if you're talking about a high jumper or basketball player, it's a clear advantage to be taller.
.

I agree it’s an advantage, and one that many sportswomen have over other sportswomen.

Especially if one of the two was born a man and went through male puberty.

[chrispmartha]

Gecko1978 said:

chrispmartha said:

BobsPigeon said:

Not if you're talking about a high jumper or basketball player, it's a clear advantage to be taller.
.

I agree it’s an advantage, and one that many sportswomen have over other sportswomen.

Especially if one of the two was born a man and went through male puberty.

Well, what if a Transwomen went through male puberty was 5 foot 5 and a women who was born a woman didn't go through male puberty was 6 foot, who's got the height advantage?

As is ay I think it's a daft metric to use for the argument either way. I'll leave it at that.

[768]

It's daft looking at imaginary individuals for a category that distinguishes at the population level.

[ZedLeg]

My irony meter just exploded

[anonymous-user]

As has been mentioned, the simple solution is a trans sports competition. Then all the transwomen and transmen can compete fairly and successfully against each other.

Tv channels will clamour to host it ( maybe save channel 4?) , and the public will be queuing up to watch.

[Kateg28]

Northernboy said:

I want them to be supported and feel safe too, but it can’t come at the expense of women’s rights.

Completely and utterly agree.

[MC Bodge]

This argument has thrown up no new ideas in its many postings. Neither did the Moral Maze on Radio 4. It is self-evident.

It is entirely possible to think that trans-gender women should not be in the same sporting category as biological women whilst being supportive and accepting of those same trans-gender women.

As others have said, Olympic committees are not as all-knowing and wise as some may believe them to be. The Olympic weightlifting committee were put on the spot and decided to go with the decision they did, but it was not the correct one. Taking the rational view, this is obvious. Sport is categorised by sex (amongst other things), not gender.

ps. The persecution and abuse of minorities is wrong. It should also be noted that Trans-gender is rare, despite the attention it gets currently.
Where does "personality" end and "gender" as a construct begin?

[BobsPigeon]

chrispmartha said:

Gecko1978 said:

chrispmartha said:

BobsPigeon said:

Not if you're talking about a high jumper or basketball player, it's a clear advantage to be taller.
.

I agree it’s an advantage, and one that many sportswomen have over other sportswomen.

Especially if one of the two was born a man and went through male puberty.

Well, what if a Transwomen went through male puberty was 5 foot 5 and a women who was born a woman didn't go through male puberty was 6 foot, who's got the height advantage?

As is ay I think it's a daft metric to use for the argument either way. I'll leave it at that.

If you were bron a short male you would not be a well practised competitive high jumper.

Sport is about levels and the further you go through the levels the more genetic advantage becomes obvious. At Olympic level you need to be both supremely genetically gifted and extremely well practised, we are talking about people in the top 1% of the top 1%. So even the slightest fraction of change to the minutest detail makes big differences in results, that's why there's such a brewhaha about doping, steroids or EPA don't turn average people into the hulk overnight.

I love sport at all levels, I think its really important, but it only makes any sense if it's competitive, that's why we handicap in golf or have leagues and compete like for like on a level playing field, that's why we segregate by age and ability and genetics. It makes no sense if there's no competition.

[amusingduck]

MC Bodge said:

It is entirely possible to think that trans-gender women should not be in the same sporting category as biological women whilst being supportive and accepting of those same trans-gender women.

Well, does it not slightly undermine the concept of 'trans women ARE women'?

ISTM that making the only sensible decision (trans women cannot compete in women's sport) invalidates that concept. If someone feels they're a woman, but they are excluded from participating with women, hard to see how their belief has not been invalidated by that decision.

A bit like banning gays in the army, I suppose. It's not really acceptance to say yes, I accept you feel that way, but you're not welcome here because of it.

[MC Bodge]

amusingduck said:

MC Bodge said:

It is entirely possible to think that trans-gender women should not be in the same sporting category as biological women whilst being supportive and accepting of those same trans-gender women.

Well, does it not slightly undermine the concept of 'trans women ARE women'?

ISTM that making the only sensible decision (trans women cannot compete in women's sport) invalidates that concept. If someone feels they're a woman, but they are excluded from participating with women, hard to see how their belief has not been invalidated by that decision.

A bit like banning gays in the army, I suppose. It's not really acceptance to say yes, I accept you feel that way, but you're not welcome here because of it.

I think that it needs to be said that they are not *fully* the same as "women", but they can be treated in almost all areas of life as women, with respect and dignity.

Nowadays, men and women are mostly treated alike anyway.

Edited by MC Bodge on Thursday 24th June 09:39