First transgender athlete to compete at Olympics
Discussion
I don't really see what's so hard to accept with the opinion that in an ideal world I'd like to see transwomen not be segregated in sport but if governing bodies decides it wouldn't be fair then I'd accept it. It's not hiding, it's accepting that some may know more about the subject than me.
RobbieTheTruth said:
You've said this:
"I am happy to leave it to the governing bodies and sports scientists to decide what’s allowed"
Weightlifting Governing bodies allow Hubbard to compete - you're happy with this.
Rugby governing bodies don't let people born male compete with women because they are too strong - you're happy with this?
In weightlifting do a U-Turn and ban ex-males competing against women - you'd be happy with this?
MMA has different rules depending on the state - you ok with this?
Can you maybe tell us what you think without hiding behind governing bodies?
Thanks for confirming that I haven't said they 'should' compete. You have no concept of nuance do you."I am happy to leave it to the governing bodies and sports scientists to decide what’s allowed"
Weightlifting Governing bodies allow Hubbard to compete - you're happy with this.
Rugby governing bodies don't let people born male compete with women because they are too strong - you're happy with this?
In weightlifting do a U-Turn and ban ex-males competing against women - you'd be happy with this?
MMA has different rules depending on the state - you ok with this?
Can you maybe tell us what you think without hiding behind governing bodies?
Yes Im OK with the weightlifting decision, am I thinking it's great and definitely the way to go - not particularly, I really haven't got enough knowledge on the subject, again you obviously disagree but that's my answer, its a complicated subject and I don't have the answer, I'm not arrogant enough to think I do.
as for your latest hypothetical question, if they do a U-turn yes Id be OK with it, I'm not sure why you're struggling with that opinion, you do realise you don't have to be 100% certain on everything all the time.
RobbieTheTruth said:
The last part of that question is very very easy.
I'd hope any competing sportsman would understand how utterly unfair it would be on women and just wouldn't do it. If they asked my advice on the subject, I'd tell them so.
Unfortunately if you ask 100 qualifying sportsmen not to compete through a sense of ‘fairness’ 99 might agree with you but the 1 in 100 will go ahead and possibly sweep the board.I'd hope any competing sportsman would understand how utterly unfair it would be on women and just wouldn't do it. If they asked my advice on the subject, I'd tell them so.
You’ve done your bit in asking them but it hasn’t been fully supported so is there a need for amending the rules?
ZedLeg said:
I don't really see what's so hard to accept with the opinion that in an ideal world I'd like to see transwomen not be segregated in sport but if governing bodies decides it wouldn't be fair then I'd accept it. It's not hiding, it's accepting that some may know more about the subject than me.
Exactly. It seems in society and definitely on these forums you have to bee 100% for or 100% against something, since when has I'll let the people with the expertise decide being an unacceptable opinion to hold?RobbieTheTruth said:
The differences are so vast, all it takes in one competent male short/middle distance runner to transition and they could likely take the female Olympic Gold in 100m, 200m, 400m, 110m hurdles, 400m hurdles and potentially long jump. They'd also give the team a huge advantage in the relay races.
If Bruce Jenner had done this in his prime, it's feasible to suggest he could have won medals in 400, 800m, 1500m, pole vault, shot put, javelin and discus - which is why she doesn't believe trans athletes should compete against women.
As I posted above, the fastest Italian T12 woman for the 100m, 200m and 400m is 47.If Bruce Jenner had done this in his prime, it's feasible to suggest he could have won medals in 400, 800m, 1500m, pole vault, shot put, javelin and discus - which is why she doesn't believe trans athletes should compete against women.
Also from that thread, this site provides further evidence of the gulf in sporting ability provided by the person’s sex…
https://boysvswomen.com/
chrispmartha said:
Exactly. It seems in society and definitely on these forums you have to bee 100% for or 100% against something, since when has I'll let the people with the expertise decide being an unacceptable opinion to hold?
It's not that it's an unacceptable opinion to hold, it's that making 75 posts to express your opinion of "I'm happy for the experts to decide" - which only takes one post - leads others to believe that you're not being entirely honest about your motivations. amusingduck said:
chrispmartha said:
Exactly. It seems in society and definitely on these forums you have to bee 100% for or 100% against something, since when has I'll let the people with the expertise decide being an unacceptable opinion to hold?
It's not that it's an unacceptable opinion to hold, it's that making 75 posts to express your opinion of "I'm happy for the experts to decide" - which only takes one post - leads others to believe that you're not being entirely honest about your motivations. ZedLeg said:
I don't really see what's so hard to accept with the opinion that in an ideal world I'd like to see transwomen not be segregated in sport but if governing bodies decides it wouldn't be fair then I'd accept it. It's not hiding, it's accepting that some may know more about the subject than me.
I think everyone agrees in an ideal world, trans people wouldn't be segregated.You can obviously see yourself it's not fair.
It's been a non-issue up to now, due to low numbers transitioning.
This is likely going to chance and trans numbers increase.
A guy under 200 in the world destroyed both Williams sisters in tennis in the same day, and said he even tried to make the game competitive for them.
People posting up stats how there are literally thousands of men who would break the womens world records in running.
None of you will admit to thinking it's ok to see ex-males fight women.
It's perfectly reasonable to fully supports trans rights whilst concedeing it should be kept seperate from elite female sport to protect women.
Basically, your stance is 'I'm pro-trans so I'd like to allow ex-males competing against women - I'll let you sort out the fairness element' and continue to just bury your head?
Iwantafusca said:
Does society believe intact males who id as women are actually women ?
Do you think believing transwomen are transwomen is transphobic?
To have male athletes who have not went through puberty would entail young boys on damaging puberty blockers from as young as 8 ?
Also there is studies to show precocious puberty has a effect on boys development also.
Re trans women are women....no they are not, to say they are is farcical. I might agree even without surgery they are not men, but often it seems the difference comes down to a psychological or emotional view point rather than physical facts. The south African runner for example I believe had some male organs but would identify as female. My view was sadly she can't compete as she does not meet the criteria biologically of being a women but she is not a man. So ok she can't run but in all other aspects she can live as a women. The downside to her is outweighed by the good to all other femalw athletes.Do you think believing transwomen are transwomen is transphobic?
To have male athletes who have not went through puberty would entail young boys on damaging puberty blockers from as young as 8 ?
Also there is studies to show precocious puberty has a effect on boys development also.
RobbieTheTruth said:
ZedLeg said:
I don't really see what's so hard to accept with the opinion that in an ideal world I'd like to see transwomen not be segregated in sport but if governing bodies decides it wouldn't be fair then I'd accept it. It's not hiding, it's accepting that some may know more about the subject than me.
I think everyone agrees in an ideal world, trans people wouldn't be segregated.You can obviously see yourself it's not fair.
It's been a non-issue up to now, due to low numbers transitioning.
This is likely going to chance and trans numbers increase.
A guy under 200 in the world destroyed both Williams sisters in tennis in the same day, and said he even tried to make the game competitive for them.
People posting up stats how there are literally thousands of men who would break the womens world records in running.
None of you will admit to thinking it's ok to see ex-males fight women.
It's perfectly reasonable to fully supports trans rights whilst concedeing it should be kept seperate from elite female sport to protect women.
Basically, your stance is 'I'm pro-trans so I'd like to allow ex-males competing against women - I'll let you sort out the fairness element' and continue to just bury your head?
chrispmartha said:
ZedLeg said:
I don't really see what's so hard to accept with the opinion that in an ideal world I'd like to see transwomen not be segregated in sport but if governing bodies decides it wouldn't be fair then I'd accept it. It's not hiding, it's accepting that some may know more about the subject than me.
Exactly. It seems in society and definitely on these forums you have to bee 100% for or 100% against something, since when has I'll let the people with the expertise decide being an unacceptable opinion to hold?It's been pointed out beyond any reasonable doubt that it's not fair on the basis of genetic makeup, so you'll hide behind 'I'll let the authorities decide' .
Like I've said. Various sporting bodies disagree and change their mind. Do you literally just support whoever authorities whatever rule at that specific time?
Do you support trans in weightlifting.
Do you support the ban of trans in rugby?
Do you supprt some states allowing and some permitting in MMA?
amusingduck said:
chrispmartha said:
Exactly. It seems in society and definitely on these forums you have to bee 100% for or 100% against something, since when has I'll let the people with the expertise decide being an unacceptable opinion to hold?
It's not that it's an unacceptable opinion to hold, it's that making 75 posts to express your opinion of "I'm happy for the experts to decide" - which only takes one post - leads others to believe that you're not being entirely honest about your motivations. Oh and you can think I am being dishonest if you want, but I'm not, that is exactly what my opinion is on it.
ZedLeg said:
amusingduck said:
chrispmartha said:
Exactly. It seems in society and definitely on these forums you have to bee 100% for or 100% against something, since when has I'll let the people with the expertise decide being an unacceptable opinion to hold?
It's not that it's an unacceptable opinion to hold, it's that making 75 posts to express your opinion of "I'm happy for the experts to decide" - which only takes one post - leads others to believe that you're not being entirely honest about your motivations. Expertise is not their core competency, in my experience, taking whatever funding they can get is.
ZedLeg said:
amusingduck said:
chrispmartha said:
Exactly. It seems in society and definitely on these forums you have to bee 100% for or 100% against something, since when has I'll let the people with the expertise decide being an unacceptable opinion to hold?
It's not that it's an unacceptable opinion to hold, it's that making 75 posts to express your opinion of "I'm happy for the experts to decide" - which only takes one post - leads others to believe that you're not being entirely honest about your motivations. ZedLeg said:
RobbieTheTruth said:
ZedLeg said:
I don't really see what's so hard to accept with the opinion that in an ideal world I'd like to see transwomen not be segregated in sport but if governing bodies decides it wouldn't be fair then I'd accept it. It's not hiding, it's accepting that some may know more about the subject than me.
I think everyone agrees in an ideal world, trans people wouldn't be segregated.You can obviously see yourself it's not fair.
It's been a non-issue up to now, due to low numbers transitioning.
This is likely going to chance and trans numbers increase.
A guy under 200 in the world destroyed both Williams sisters in tennis in the same day, and said he even tried to make the game competitive for them.
People posting up stats how there are literally thousands of men who would break the womens world records in running.
None of you will admit to thinking it's ok to see ex-males fight women.
It's perfectly reasonable to fully supports trans rights whilst concedeing it should be kept seperate from elite female sport to protect women.
Basically, your stance is 'I'm pro-trans so I'd like to allow ex-males competing against women - I'll let you sort out the fairness element' and continue to just bury your head?
It's only a car forum - it's just a discussion.
What do YOU want.
You want to allow ex-males to compete in all sports?
You want to allow ex-males to compete in some sports?
You're not stupid, you know the differences between the male and female body?
If it was up to you now - what would you want?
Based on your answers, I suggest you want ex-males competing against women as you feel it would be discriminatory if they didn't. Basivcally, it's up to females then if they want to carry on competing.
If I'm wrong, correct me.
Don't hide behind 'governing bodies', it's only a discussion.
MC Bodge said:
ZedLeg said:
I keep saying I'm not going to come back to this thread, it's basically self harm at this point. I should really listen to myself 
It is a non-argument.The answer is obvious, even to you, if you are honest about it.
RobbieTheTruth said:
chrispmartha said:
ZedLeg said:
I don't really see what's so hard to accept with the opinion that in an ideal world I'd like to see transwomen not be segregated in sport but if governing bodies decides it wouldn't be fair then I'd accept it. It's not hiding, it's accepting that some may know more about the subject than me.
Exactly. It seems in society and definitely on these forums you have to bee 100% for or 100% against something, since when has I'll let the people with the expertise decide being an unacceptable opinion to hold?It's been pointed out beyond any reasonable doubt that it's not fair on the basis of genetic makeup, so you'll hide behind 'I'll let the authorities decide' .
Like I've said. Various sporting bodies disagree and change their mind. Do you literally just support whoever authorities whatever rule at that specific time?
Do you support trans in weightlifting.
Do you support the ban of trans in rugby?
Do you supprt some states allowing and some permitting in MMA?
chrispmartha said:
amusingduck said:
chrispmartha said:
Exactly. It seems in society and definitely on these forums you have to bee 100% for or 100% against something, since when has I'll let the people with the expertise decide being an unacceptable opinion to hold?
It's not that it's an unacceptable opinion to hold, it's that making 75 posts to express your opinion of "I'm happy for the experts to decide" - which only takes one post - leads others to believe that you're not being entirely honest about your motivations. Oh and you can think I am being dishonest if you want, but I'm not, that is exactly what my opinion is on it.
If Sharon Davies becomes head of the UK Olympics program, it's a blanket immediate ban on all trans-athletes in sport. Would you back that?
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