First transgender athlete to compete at Olympics

[RobbieTheTruth]

andyA700 said:

Gecko1978 said:

I am not sure sport in any respect undermines rights given the above posters agree there is "no right to entry". Rules are rules currently Laurel Hubbard (the theead is about her not wider trans community) falls within the rules. As I stated before unless she is mentally ill she will be fully aware she has an advantage. She lifted weights till 2001 as a male competitively without sucess she would have been in her 20s at her prime then, she would have been aware she was in her prime. Then 2012 she transitioned and went back to lifting, she was still not competitive in the male category (expected given she would have undergone hormonal treatment and also she was never top flight as a male but she was very strong). As a women she starts lifting 20 years past her prime.

No one can truely believe she doesn't know she has an advantage given her history in the sport. Perhaps for her its a rebirth i.e. she always wanted to be a women and thus this is her chance to live that dream / goal. I get that to an extent but ahe will know 100% she is taking glory from female competitors and doesn't care. That makes her a bad sports women. Ben Johnson in a leotard, Lance Armstrong etc.

Whilst I largely agree with your post, there are a couple of points I take issue with. In 1998, Hubbard set three national New Zealand records in the M105 class as a junior man, so that was not without success.
To name Ben Johnson as a cheat completely ignores the fact that Carl Lewis, who was awarded the gold medal for that race, actually failed three drug test in the runup to the Seoul Olympics, which were covered up by the UST&F.

The points re. Ben Johnson/Carl Lewis are irrelevant when debating if people born male should compete against females.

Carl Lewis retired in 96 when he stopped medalling in sprinting.

He could have transitioned post retirement and entered the 2000 and/or 2004 female Olympics and took gold medal in 100m, 200m, 400m, 110m hurdles, long jump, 4x100m relay (barring errors from teammates), 4x200m relay (barring errors from teammates).

Carl wasn't a 400m runner but he did it occasionally, and did it in around 46 seconds (which is quicker than the current women's world record, 30+ years later).

I think he could have medaled in their 800m too.

[RobbieTheTruth]

p2c said:

RobbieTheTruth said:

chrispmartha said:

gregs656 said:

I don’t think ‘whatever’ is necessarily problematic.

I mean, no one has ‘a right’ to compete at the olympics. Every who is there has earned it, and there are disqualifying criteria for everyone.

I personally do not think it undermines trans rights, as in, the legal right to live as your gender, have it legally recognised and be protected from social discrimination, to accept that at elite levels of competition it is a barrier to entry.

Perhaps as we learn more, and as we have transgender athletes who ever went through male or female puberty start to come onto the scene this can be teased out some more, but as it stands I don’t think it undermines trans gender rights.

What, potentially, does undermine transgender rights in the long term is fighting so many fronts simultaneously when the social conscience has not caught up.

I think this is a great post and sums up my thoughts on it, you’ve probably just worded it better than I have.

It's not a great post, it sums up your rhetoric.

"We need to learn more".

People born male will have a huge advantage over people born female. No amount of 'learning' is going to change that.

Are you seriously suggesting people who transition before puberty could possibly compete?

So people who transition in their 20s aren't woman enough to compete but people who transition at 11 are?


There are some good points though. Nobody has a right to compete. The obvious issue though, is you won't get selected if you're not good enough. A 43 year old woman who didn't lift professionally from 2001- 2014 or whatever it was wouldn't stand a chance. Hubbard can do it because they were born male.

Edited by RobbieTheTruth on Friday 25th June 12:54

There are many reasons why someone undergoing gender transition may not wish to be in the public eye of international competition, not least for some of that period they would be ineligible. That does not necessary mean they have not been training to competition level

True.

So what's your stance? Should Hubbard be competing against people born female in weightlifting competitions?

[p2c]

"Nobody has a right to compete" is an interesting take on the IOC "sport for all" and "sport is a human right".

There is a gulf between failing to meet the athletic standard and being excluded for who you are.

[RobbieTheTruth]

p2c said:

"Nobody has a right to compete" is an interesting take on the IOC "sport for all" and "sport is a human right".

There is a gulf between failing to meet the athletic standard and being excluded for who you are.

We are discussing competing at a high level competition - that should have been made clearer.

I don't have a right to get selected in the Olympic basketball team. Even if I devote my life to the sport, I'm not tall enough to be effective.

It had to be pointed out as people have used the crazy argument that 'some women are taller than others anyway' when people point our ex-males are much stronger than people porn female.


What's your stance? Should Hubbard be competing against people born female in weightlifting competitions?

[anonymous-user]

p2c said:

"Nobody has a right to compete" is an interesting take on the IOC "sport for all" and "sport is a human right".

There is a gulf between failing to meet the athletic standard and being excluded for who you are.

What are you tho ? Transwomen arent women and therefore is unfair to compete together.


Fundamental principles of Olympism

Principle 4. The practice of sport is a human right. Every individual must have the possibility of practising sport, without discrimination of any kind and in the Olympic spirit, which requires mutual understanding with a spirit of friendship, solidarity and fair play.

Think Laurel needs to read the last part.

Edited by anonymous-user on Friday 25th June 13:21

[eccles]

RobbieTheTruth said:

We are discussing competing at a high level competition - that should have been made clearer.

I don't have a right to get selected in the Olympic basketball team. Even if I devote my life to the sport, I'm not tall enough to be effective.

It had to be pointed out as people have used the crazy argument that 'some women are taller than others anyway' when people point our ex-males are much stronger than people porn female.


What's your stance? Should Hubbard be competing against people born female in weightlifting competitions?

Legally she is allowed to, morally I'd say not.

[RobbieTheTruth]

eccles said:

RobbieTheTruth said:

We are discussing competing at a high level competition - that should have been made clearer.

I don't have a right to get selected in the Olympic basketball team. Even if I devote my life to the sport, I'm not tall enough to be effective.

It had to be pointed out as people have used the crazy argument that 'some women are taller than others anyway' when people point our ex-males are much stronger than people porn female.


What's your stance? Should Hubbard be competing against people born female in weightlifting competitions?

Legally she is allowed to, morally I'd say not.

Of course. Also legally, they cannot compete in Rugby and a number of other sports.

[768]

p2c said:

"Nobody has a right to compete" is an interesting take on the IOC "sport for all" and "sport is a human right".

There is a gulf between failing to meet the athletic standard and being excluded for who you are.

This just around women's sport, created to leave a door open for that half of the planet. Plenty of sport for all humans in the other category.

[chrispmartha]

RobbieTheTruth said:

eccles said:

RobbieTheTruth said:

We are discussing competing at a high level competition - that should have been made clearer.

I don't have a right to get selected in the Olympic basketball team. Even if I devote my life to the sport, I'm not tall enough to be effective.

It had to be pointed out as people have used the crazy argument that 'some women are taller than others anyway' when people point our ex-males are much stronger than people porn female.


What's your stance? Should Hubbard be competing against people born female in weightlifting competitions?

Legally she is allowed to, morally I'd say not.

Of course. Also legally, they cannot compete in Rugby and a number of other sports.

Trans people can compete in Rugby, just not in internationals.

https://www.englandrugby.com/dxdam/26/26de38f3-d82...

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/oct/14/rfu-...

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/oct/14/rfu-...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/49298550

I also Believe that Rugby League follows the IOC guidelines for both domestic and Internationals.

Edited by chrispmartha on Friday 25th June 14:09

[RobbieTheTruth]

chrispmartha said:

RobbieTheTruth said:

eccles said:

RobbieTheTruth said:

We are discussing competing at a high level competition - that should have been made clearer.

I don't have a right to get selected in the Olympic basketball team. Even if I devote my life to the sport, I'm not tall enough to be effective.

It had to be pointed out as people have used the crazy argument that 'some women are taller than others anyway' when people point our ex-males are much stronger than people porn female.


What's your stance? Should Hubbard be competing against people born female in weightlifting competitions?

Legally she is allowed to, morally I'd say not.

Of course. Also legally, they cannot compete in Rugby and a number of other sports.

Trans people can compete in Rugby, just not in internationals.

https://www.englandrugby.com/dxdam/26/26de38f3-d82...

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/oct/14/rfu-...

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/oct/14/rfu-...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/49298550

I also Believe that Rugby League follows the IOC guidelines for both domestic and Internationals.

Edited by chrispmartha on Friday 25th June 14:09

Do you think that's fair?

Being allowed to compete until it get's really serious?

Do you like that model of inclusion?

Why did they block it for internationals?

Edited by RobbieTheTruth on Friday 25th June 14:37

[chrispmartha]

RobbieTheTruth said:

chrispmartha said:

RobbieTheTruth said:

eccles said:

RobbieTheTruth said:

We are discussing competing at a high level competition - that should have been made clearer.

I don't have a right to get selected in the Olympic basketball team. Even if I devote my life to the sport, I'm not tall enough to be effective.

It had to be pointed out as people have used the crazy argument that 'some women are taller than others anyway' when people point our ex-males are much stronger than people porn female.


What's your stance? Should Hubbard be competing against people born female in weightlifting competitions?

Legally she is allowed to, morally I'd say not.

Of course. Also legally, they cannot compete in Rugby and a number of other sports.

Trans people can compete in Rugby, just not in internationals.

https://www.englandrugby.com/dxdam/26/26de38f3-d82...

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/oct/14/rfu-...

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/oct/14/rfu-...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/49298550

I also Believe that Rugby League follows the IOC guidelines for both domestic and Internationals.

Edited by chrispmartha on Friday 25th June 14:09

Do you think that's fair?

Being allowed to compete until it get's really serious?

Do you like that model of inclusion?

I think its ‘fairer’ than a blanket ban.

And as I say RL allows it even when ‘serious’.

[RobbieTheTruth]

chrispmartha said:

RobbieTheTruth said:

chrispmartha said:

RobbieTheTruth said:

eccles said:

RobbieTheTruth said:

We are discussing competing at a high level competition - that should have been made clearer.

I don't have a right to get selected in the Olympic basketball team. Even if I devote my life to the sport, I'm not tall enough to be effective.

It had to be pointed out as people have used the crazy argument that 'some women are taller than others anyway' when people point our ex-males are much stronger than people porn female.


What's your stance? Should Hubbard be competing against people born female in weightlifting competitions?

Legally she is allowed to, morally I'd say not.

Of course. Also legally, they cannot compete in Rugby and a number of other sports.

Trans people can compete in Rugby, just not in internationals.

https://www.englandrugby.com/dxdam/26/26de38f3-d82...

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/oct/14/rfu-...

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/oct/14/rfu-...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/49298550

I also Believe that Rugby League follows the IOC guidelines for both domestic and Internationals.

Edited by chrispmartha on Friday 25th June 14:09

Do you think that's fair?

Being allowed to compete until it get's really serious?

Do you like that model of inclusion?

I think its ‘fairer’ than a blanket ban.

And as I say RL allows it even when ‘serious’.

Fairer than a blanket ban suggests on a binary question 'should ex-males compete against females in sports where strength can cause advantage/injuries' - you'd answer yes?

I've never known anyone to actually admit to that - and I imagine you'll avoid answering again by saying 'it's not what I wrote'....

Why does Rugby League allow it in Internationals and Rugby Union permit it?

You said you'd agree with whatever decision the governing bodies make. Do you agree with both decisions?

[p2c]

Its really not surprising all the other major rugby leagues took one look at world rugby's so called research and reaffirmed their trans inclusion, its also no surprise English rugby is the only league who followed suit. The UK does now have a certain international reputation "T3$F Island"

[MC Bodge]

p2c said:

The UK does now have a certain international reputation "T3$F Island"

amongst whom?

Some people seem keen to accuse large numbers of liberal, progressive people of phobia and bigotry. It seems an odd strategy.

[chrispmartha]

RobbieTheTruth said:

Fairer than a blanket ban suggests on a binary question 'should ex-males compete against females in sports where strength can cause advantage/injuries' - you'd answer yes?

I've never known anyone to actually admit to that - and I imagine you'll avoid answering again by saying 'it's not what I wrote'....

Why does Rugby League allow it in Internationals and Rugby Union permit it?

You said you'd agree with whatever decision the governing bodies make. Do you agree with both decisions?

Your line of questioning is utterly bizarre, you really inly want binary (no pun intended) answers and cannot contemplate any other.

So ill ask you one, just so I'm clear on where you stand, do you think trans women should be barred from all women’s sport at every level.?

As for Rugby League (a sport which is a massive part of my life and have played and followed for most of it) I would suspect that because the sport has prided itself on inclusivity they feel a blanket ban or even a ban at international is at odds with their principles, but I have no dealings with any of the governing bodies.

I also think team sports are different to individual sports, which is why there are no different classes for weight.

[RobbieTheTruth]

MC Bodge said:

p2c said:

The UK does now have a certain international reputation "T3$F Island"

amongst whom?

Some people seem keen to accuse large numbers of liberal, progressive people of phobia and bigotry. It seems an odd strategy.

What's your stance then.

Are you going to be the first to actually admit you think it's fair and good practice for ex-males to compete against females in strength competitions?

Or are you just going to read and chip in regarding definitions/mis-gendering etc?

[ZedLeg]

MC Bodge said:

p2c said:

The UK does now have a certain international reputation "T3$F Island"

amongst whom?

Some people seem keen to accuse large numbers of liberal, progressive people of phobia and bigotry. It seems an odd strategy.

The UK is at the centre of an international network of anti trans campaigners. People like Posie Parker have been meeting up with christian far right groups in the US to discuss their common interests in attacking members of the LGBT+ community.

There's also the large number of well loved british celebrities that can't help but show their support for the "gender critical" movement.

Perhaps a lot of the people in this country aren't as liberal and progressive as you'd like to think they are.

[RobbieTheTruth]

chrispmartha said:

RobbieTheTruth said:

Fairer than a blanket ban suggests on a binary question 'should ex-males compete against females in sports where strength can cause advantage/injuries' - you'd answer yes?

I've never known anyone to actually admit to that - and I imagine you'll avoid answering again by saying 'it's not what I wrote'....

Why does Rugby League allow it in Internationals and Rugby Union permit it?

You said you'd agree with whatever decision the governing bodies make. Do you agree with both decisions?

Your line of questioning is utterly bizarre, you really inly want binary (no pun intended) answers and cannot contemplate any other.

So ill ask you one, just so I'm clear on where you stand, do you think trans women should be barred from all women’s sport at every level.?

As for Rugby League (a sport which is a massive part of my life and have played and followed for most of it) I would suspect that because the sport has prided itself on inclusivity they feel a blanket ban or even a ban at international is at odds with their principles, but I have no dealings with any of the governing bodies.

I also think team sports are different to individual sports, which is why there are no different classes for weight.

In answer to your question. Yes, if you were born male, I wouldn't allow them to compete against women in sports where genders are separated.

People have suggested alternatives - but they cause more issues.

Allow them if they've had full gender surgery - I'm sure this would be deemed unfair.

Allow them if they transitioned before reaching puberty - this would mean people who transitioned at late-teens/adults couldn't compete.

Some say 'self identification' is all you need to be a woman.

It will never-ever be solved unless a simple 'complete under the sex you were born - not the gender you currently are' is in place. Inter-gender requires further detail.



World Rugby found "20-30% greater risk” of injury when a female player is tackled by someone who has gone through male puberty".

[MC Bodge]

RobbieTheTruth said:

MC Bodge said:

p2c said:

The UK does now have a certain international reputation "T3$F Island"

amongst whom?

Some people seem keen to accuse large numbers of liberal, progressive people of phobia and bigotry. It seems an odd strategy.

What's your stance then.

Are you going to be the first to actually admit you think it's fair and good practice for ex-males to compete against females in strength competitions?

Or are you just going to read and chip in regarding definitions/mis-gendering etc?

Me?

I've stated a number of times that I agree with respecting transgender people and treating them with dignity.

I disagree with the NZ transwoman taking part in the Olympic weightlifting and I am concerned about the impact on women's sport in the future.

[chrispmartha]

RobbieTheTruth said:

In answer to your question. Yes, if you were born male, I wouldn't allow them to compete against women in sports where genders are separated.

Then unfortunately for you I think you’re going to be angry about this for the foreseeable future if not the rest of your life.