First transgender athlete to compete at Olympics

[gregs656]

p2c said:

"Nobody has a right to compete" is an interesting take on the IOC "sport for all" and "sport is a human right".

There is a gulf between failing to meet the athletic standard and being excluded for who you are.

It’s true though isn’t it, no body has a right to compete. The olympics is the IOCs ball at the end of the day and they, and various governing bodies, gets to chose who plays.

There are already disqualifying criteria for entry, regardless of whether you meet the athletic standard, and sex for example already disqualifies you from half the competition based on who you are.

IDK. If you look at LGB rights in Britain you see that over time the rough edges have been chipped away at.

There were many areas that were slower as rights butted heads with responsibilities. Look at blood donation for example, sure it’s wrong to bar people from donating blood because they’re gay and sexually active -
but it’s also wrong to put HIV+ blood into the system. Not a hill gay rights should have died on, and over time there have been concessions as the science in that area improves.

The IOC and sports governing bodies have responsibilities too, and at the moment I just don’t think we know enough. I absolutely think that could change.

[RobbieTheTruth]

MC Bodge said:

RobbieTheTruth said:

MC Bodge said:

p2c said:

The UK does now have a certain international reputation "T3$F Island"

amongst whom?

Some people seem keen to accuse large numbers of liberal, progressive people of phobia and bigotry. It seems an odd strategy.

What's your stance then.

Are you going to be the first to actually admit you think it's fair and good practice for ex-males to compete against females in strength competitions?

Or are you just going to read and chip in regarding definitions/mis-gendering etc?

Me?

I've stated a number of times that I agree with respecting transgender people and treating them with dignity.

I disagree with the NZ transwoman taking part in the Olympic weightlifting and I am concerned about the impact on women's sport in the future.

Apologies. That's the stance I'd expect any reasonable, same thinking individual to take.

[RobbieTheTruth]

chrispmartha said:

RobbieTheTruth said:

In answer to your question. Yes, if you were born male, I wouldn't allow them to compete against women in sports where genders are separated.

Then unfortunately for you I think you’re going to be angry about this for the foreseeable future if not the rest of your life.

Like others, I'll watch with interest to see how it unfolds and perversely probably enjoy the fall out if/when female sport is dominated by ex-males.

Obviously it's going to be horrific for women athletes but if we can't stand up for common sense, what can you do other than watch the madness?

Edited by RobbieTheTruth on Friday 25th June 15:16

Edited by RobbieTheTruth on Friday 25th June 15:17

[Randy Winkman]

RobbieTheTruth said:

chrispmartha said:

RobbieTheTruth said:

In answer to your question. Yes, if you were born male, I wouldn't allow them to compete against women in sports where genders are separated.

Then unfortunately for you I think you’re going to be angry about this for the foreseeable future if not the rest of your life.

Like others, I'll watch with interest to see how it unfolds and perversely enjoy the fall out when female sport is dominated by ex-males.

Wouldn't it be more enjoyable if it was sorted out quickly and if womens' sport could continue with minimal disruption? That's what I hope for anyway.

[chrispmartha]

RobbieTheTruth said:

the fall out if/when female sport is dominated by ex-males.

Again I don't think this will happen and not in your lifetime.

The trans community is tiny tiny minority of the general population and one that it still seems ok to dehumanise and marginalise, thankfully it is changing.

If you read this thread in isolation of actual events it could be seen that there are transgender people all over the place in every sport trying to compete and some are even suggesting that they are specifically transitioning to gain an advantage, which I think is ill informed nonsense.

[RobbieTheTruth]

Randy Winkman said:

RobbieTheTruth said:

chrispmartha said:

RobbieTheTruth said:

In answer to your question. Yes, if you were born male, I wouldn't allow them to compete against women in sports where genders are separated.

Then unfortunately for you I think you’re going to be angry about this for the foreseeable future if not the rest of your life.

Like others, I'll watch with interest to see how it unfolds and perversely enjoy the fall out when female sport is dominated by ex-males.

Wouldn't it be more enjoyable if it was sorted out quickly and if womens' sport could continue with minimal disruption? That's what I hope for anyway.

Of course. If sensible were allowed to be made by science and common sense, this would be the outcome.

However we are where we are - with a vocal minority pushing for trans-inclusion in female sports despite knowing it's clearly not fair.

[RobbieTheTruth]

chrispmartha said:

RobbieTheTruth said:

the fall out if/when female sport is dominated by ex-males.

Again I don't think this will happen and not in your lifetime.

The trans community is tiny tiny minority of the general population and one that it still seems ok to dehumanise and marginalise, thankfully it is changing.

If you read this thread in isolation of actual events it could be seen that there are transgender people all over the place in every sport trying to compete and some are even suggesting that they are specifically transitioning to gain an advantage, which I think is ill informed nonsense.

In my lifetime, watching weightlifting on the telly - if someone was to say 'in 30 years, a 43 year old bloke will transition into a woman and be allowed to compete and win a medal here' I wouldn't have believed you.

[RobbieTheTruth]

RobbieTheTruth said:

chrispmartha said:

RobbieTheTruth said:

the fall out if/when female sport is dominated by ex-males.

Again I don't think this will happen and not in your lifetime.

The trans community is tiny tiny minority of the general population and one that it still seems ok to dehumanise and marginalise, thankfully it is changing.

If you read this thread in isolation of actual events it could be seen that there are transgender people all over the place in every sport trying to compete and some are even suggesting that they are specifically transitioning to gain an advantage, which I think is ill informed nonsense.

In my lifetime, watching weightlifting on the telly - if someone was to say 'in 30 years, a 43 year old bloke will transition into a woman and be allowed to compete and win a medal here' I wouldn't have believed you.

I'd hazard a guess it's going to get even easier - with pro-trans activists wanting trans inclusion from the day they self-identify, and the thought of asking people to take testosterone blockers for years will be considered anti-trans

[ZedLeg]

chrispmartha said:

RobbieTheTruth said:

the fall out if/when female sport is dominated by ex-males.

Again I don't think this will happen and not in your lifetime.

The trans community is tiny tiny minority of the general population and one that it still seems ok to dehumanise and marginalise, thankfully it is changing.

If you read this thread in isolation of actual events it could be seen that there are transgender people all over the place in every sport trying to compete and some are even suggesting that they are specifically transitioning to gain an advantage, which I think is ill informed nonsense.

Yeah, I don't think that the people commenting with the doom nonsense actually understand how small a minority trans people actually are. There just isn't the population to support this assertation that they're going to take over women's sport.

[p2c]

ZedLeg said:

MC Bodge said:

p2c said:

The UK does now have a certain international reputation "T3$F Island"

amongst whom?

Some people seem keen to accuse large numbers of liberal, progressive people of phobia and bigotry. It seems an odd strategy.

The UK is at the centre of an international network of anti trans campaigners. People like Posie Parker have been meeting up with christian far right groups in the US to discuss their common interests in attacking members of the LGBT+ community.

There's also the large number of well loved british celebrities that can't help but show their support for the "gender critical" movement.

Perhaps a lot of the people in this country aren't as liberal and progressive as you'd like to think they are.

Emma Hilton who was one of the key researchers for world rugby policy is a founding member of a gender critical lobby group that hound any organisation with trans inclusion policies or statements, are campaigning to shut down stonewall because of their trans inclusion, have written to every stonewall diversity champion calling for them to drop stonewall over their trans inclusion and have the ear of government and EHRC

As for the so called research World rugby conducted, It involved or studied the performance of zero elite trans athletes.

[768]

Randy Winkman said:

Wouldn't it be more enjoyable if it was sorted out quickly and if womens' sport could continue with minimal disruption? That's what I hope for anyway.

I have the same hope but it's less than a month away. This close to it I can't see it happening and I can't see a woman given her place back describing it as minimal disruption. Tracey Lambrechs ended up retiring despite being 8 years younger, I assume she's never going to get the spot again.

[RobbieTheTruth]

p2c said:

ZedLeg said:

MC Bodge said:

p2c said:

The UK does now have a certain international reputation "T3$F Island"

amongst whom?

Some people seem keen to accuse large numbers of liberal, progressive people of phobia and bigotry. It seems an odd strategy.

The UK is at the centre of an international network of anti trans campaigners. People like Posie Parker have been meeting up with christian far right groups in the US to discuss their common interests in attacking members of the LGBT+ community.

There's also the large number of well loved british celebrities that can't help but show their support for the "gender critical" movement.

Perhaps a lot of the people in this country aren't as liberal and progressive as you'd like to think they are.

Emma Hilton who was one of the key researchers for world rugby policy is a founding member of a gender critical lobby group that hound any organisation with trans inclusion policies or statements, are campaigning to shut down stonewall because of their trans inclusion, have written to every stonewall diversity champion calling for them to drop stonewall over their trans inclusion and have the ear of government and EHRC

As for the so called research World rugby conducted, It involved or studied the performance of zero elite trans athletes.

Do you thinks Hubbard competing in the womens Olympics is fair?

Do you disagree their findings that suggest it's dangerous for women to be tacked at full force by ex-males?

[p2c]

768 said:

Randy Winkman said:

Wouldn't it be more enjoyable if it was sorted out quickly and if womens' sport could continue with minimal disruption? That's what I hope for anyway.

I have the same hope but it's less than a month away. This close to it I can't see it happening and I can't see a woman given her place back describing it as minimal disruption. Tracey Lambrechs ended up retiring despite being 8 years younger, I assume she's never going to get the spot again.

IOC have already said they are delaying the announcement of the new policy until after Tokyo, and even so I gather it wont please the naysayers.

[RobbieTheTruth]

p2c said:

768 said:

Randy Winkman said:

Wouldn't it be more enjoyable if it was sorted out quickly and if womens' sport could continue with minimal disruption? That's what I hope for anyway.

I have the same hope but it's less than a month away. This close to it I can't see it happening and I can't see a woman given her place back describing it as minimal disruption. Tracey Lambrechs ended up retiring despite being 8 years younger, I assume she's never going to get the spot again.

IOC have already said they are delaying the announcement of the new policy until after Tokyo, and even so I gather it wont please the naysayers.

Do you thinks Hubbard competing in the womens Olympics is fair?

Do you disagree their findings that suggest it's dangerous for women to be tacked at full force by ex-males?

[ZedLeg]

Is this where you're at now, just repeating the same blinkered question at someone over and over?

You look like a crank.

[Randy Winkman]

768 said:

Randy Winkman said:

Wouldn't it be more enjoyable if it was sorted out quickly and if womens' sport could continue with minimal disruption? That's what I hope for anyway.

I have the same hope but it's less than a month away. This close to it I can't see it happening and I can't see a woman given her place back describing it as minimal disruption. Tracey Lambrechs ended up retiring despite being 8 years younger, I assume she's never going to get the spot again.

Just to clarify, I was replying to RobbieTheTruth's comment that he would "perversely enjoy the fall out when female sport is dominated by ex-males." rather than the specific issue about the transgender weightlifter. I assume that wont be resolved in a month.

[RobbieTheTruth]

ZedLeg said:

Is this where you're at now, just repeating the same blinkered question at someone over and over?

You look like a crank.

Who looks like a crank?

90% of the people in here say it's clearly not fair.

There are 2-3 who just argue with a hugely pro-trans agenda but still cannot admit that it's fair for Hubbard to compete against females.

You'll say it's legal, experts have decided, she's a real woman etc etc, which is great.

Morally - nobody has come forward and said 'it's entirely fair that ex-males should compete against people born woman. People born women should just deal with their sport allowing ex-males who biologically are likely on average about 30% superior in strength'.

If that's your stance, then great - I'd disagree but you're entitled to that opiniopn.

However your stance is likely - "I don't know, it's complicated, it needs to be inclusive and experts need to decide (even though they are at odds within the same sport)".

However complicated it is, how do you propose we deal with the 30% natural advantage?

[p2c]

Has English rugby explained how a 91kg 171cm skilled trans woman has different laws of physics to a 91kg 171cm skilled cis women?

[gregs656]

p2c said:

Emma Hilton who was one of the key researchers for world rugby policy is a founding member of a gender critical lobby group that hound any organisation with trans inclusion policies or statements, are campaigning to shut down stonewall because of their trans inclusion, have written to every stonewall diversity champion calling for them to drop stonewall over their trans inclusion and have the ear of government and EHRC

As for the so called research World rugby conducted, It involved or studied the performance of zero elite trans athletes.

I genuinely don't understand how you can have all this information and still think 'this is the year'

It makes no sense to me. If I was looking to progress trans rights in sports, I would want someone absolutely bullet proof.

Over 3 billion people watch the Olympics. God knows the proportion of them who are trans, or have met a trans person, or have any awareness of trans gender people at all. It is a PR disaster.

[trails]

ZedLeg said:

Is this where you're at now, just repeating the same blinkered question at someone over and over?

You look like a crank.

Isn't that kind of disingenuous when you are doing just the same, albeit without the question mark...so could the same critique be levelled at you?