First transgender athlete to compete at Olympics
Discussion
gregs656 said:
I will rephrase:
The questions would be, in your opinion: Is Laurel competing in the Olympics this year likely to help or hinder future trans athletes over the short to medium term? Do you think Laurel is the ideal person to expose the world to trans athletes? And do you think it is likely to be a PR disaster - as in, is it going to generate more negative or positive response from the worlds press, and social media?
It doesn't matter, its clear from this thread that no trans athlete would be acceptable. It's a shame Chris Mosier was injured in trials though, his presence also would have been great support to Laurel competing rather than her being alone.The questions would be, in your opinion: Is Laurel competing in the Olympics this year likely to help or hinder future trans athletes over the short to medium term? Do you think Laurel is the ideal person to expose the world to trans athletes? And do you think it is likely to be a PR disaster - as in, is it going to generate more negative or positive response from the worlds press, and social media?
Will it be a PR disaster, of coarse it will. Trans people still breathing is a PR disaster, It won't matter what we do, there will be negative press about us, may as well get it over and done with and we don't get to choose those who step out into the light, I have great respect for her, its going to be a s
tfest for the next month or so, but that's nothing new, as I said previous, trans people will be under attack in the press, social media, government and courts tomorrow no matter what, It makes no odds at this point what in particular its about.35 pages in already with this quandary. Wait until she wins! My God, it will cause some ruckus around these here parts.
One look at me would confirm that I’m not an athlete (although a handsome dashing chap) so I don’t have an understanding of what they go through to be world class in their chosen field. But how the hell could you feel any satisfaction in winning gold in such circumstances?
I read somewhere (on here?) that if Mike Tyson had a sex change he would clean up for the next decade.
How about it Mike?
One look at me would confirm that I’m not an athlete (although a handsome dashing chap) so I don’t have an understanding of what they go through to be world class in their chosen field. But how the hell could you feel any satisfaction in winning gold in such circumstances?
I read somewhere (on here?) that if Mike Tyson had a sex change he would clean up for the next decade.
How about it Mike?
ZedLeg said:
I'm not really sure what you're trying to say. I've answered questions posed to me, people say I'm being evasive when I answer and they say I'm being evasive when I point out that I've already answered that question. Someone asking a question about a complicated issue and expecting a yes or no answer doesn't mean that they're going to get one.
So it's just as challenging for you to put yourself in others shoes and respond in kind as it is for them to do the same and understand your responses. I hope that makes a bit more sense.trails said:
ZedLeg said:
I'm not really sure what you're trying to say. I've answered questions posed to me, people say I'm being evasive when I answer and they say I'm being evasive when I point out that I've already answered that question. Someone asking a question about a complicated issue and expecting a yes or no answer doesn't mean that they're going to get one.
So it's just as challenging for you to put yourself in others shoes and respond in kind as it is for them to do the same and understand your responses. I hope that makes a bit more sense.I guess the issue (as with most arguments on the internet) is that you have two groups of people arguing from entrenched positions and the chances of coming to any sort of agreement are next to zero. It's why I usually try and stay away from them.
This one has clearly got under my skin for some reason, I think it was maybe someone near the start calling me a misogynist and telling me I was ok with people being raped in prison.
Hopefully a weekend away from my computer will cure me of that.
p2c said:
It doesn't matter, its clear from this thread that no trans athlete would be acceptable. It's a shame Chris Mosier was injured in trials though, his presence also would have been great support to Laurel competing rather than her being alone.
Will it be a PR disaster, of coarse it will. Trans people still breathing is a PR disaster, It won't matter what we do, there will be negative press about us, may as well get it over and done with and we don't get to choose those who step out into the light, I have great respect for her, its going to be a stfest for the next month or so, but that's nothing new, as I said previous, trans people will be under attack in the press, social media, government and courts tomorrow no matter what, It makes no odds at this point what in particular its about.
I don't think PH is a good barometer for what is acceptable, certainly not what could become acceptable. Will it be a PR disaster, of coarse it will. Trans people still breathing is a PR disaster, It won't matter what we do, there will be negative press about us, may as well get it over and done with and we don't get to choose those who step out into the light, I have great respect for her, its going to be a s
tfest for the next month or so, but that's nothing new, as I said previous, trans people will be under attack in the press, social media, government and courts tomorrow no matter what, It makes no odds at this point what in particular its about.Your second paragraph is pretty fatalist, and negative really, particularly considering how far trans rights have come over a relatively short period of time. I don't think it makes sense to lose sight of what is effective just because you believe something is right. Being right doesn't matter anything like as much as being effective.
ZedLeg said:
That's fair, I don't understand where people like Robbie are coming from.
I guess the issue (as with most arguments on the internet) is that you have two groups of people arguing from entrenched positions and the chances of coming to any sort of agreement are next to zero. It's why I usually try and stay away from them.
This one has clearly got under my skin for some reason, I think it was maybe someone near the start calling me a misogynist and telling me I was ok with people being raped in prison.
Hopefully a weekend away from my computer will cure me of that.
I hope you do shrug it off, I can't begin to imagine how emotive a subject like this is for you and I'm sure you are not OK with people being raped in prison.I guess the issue (as with most arguments on the internet) is that you have two groups of people arguing from entrenched positions and the chances of coming to any sort of agreement are next to zero. It's why I usually try and stay away from them.
This one has clearly got under my skin for some reason, I think it was maybe someone near the start calling me a misogynist and telling me I was ok with people being raped in prison.
Hopefully a weekend away from my computer will cure me of that.
Probably a good illustration of the degree of effort that will be required to reach an agreeable solution that is viewed as fair for all concerned.
p2c said:
It doesn't matter, its clear from this thread that no trans athlete would be acceptable. It's a shame Chris Mosier was injured in trials though, his presence also would have been great support to Laurel competing rather than her being alone.
Will it be a PR disaster, of coarse it will. Trans people still breathing is a PR disaster, It won't matter what we do, there will be negative press about us, may as well get it over and done with and we don't get to choose those who step out into the light, I have great respect for her, its going to be a stfest for the next month or so, but that's nothing new, as I said previous, trans people will be under attack in the press, social media, government and courts tomorrow no matter what, It makes no odds at this point what in particular its about.
Think of all the sports where physique isn't a factor. I really don't think if half of Scotland's curling team were trans it would matter a jot, the same with any other sport where it's skill not strength that matters.Will it be a PR disaster, of coarse it will. Trans people still breathing is a PR disaster, It won't matter what we do, there will be negative press about us, may as well get it over and done with and we don't get to choose those who step out into the light, I have great respect for her, its going to be a s
tfest for the next month or so, but that's nothing new, as I said previous, trans people will be under attack in the press, social media, government and courts tomorrow no matter what, It makes no odds at this point what in particular its about.eccles said:
Think of all the sports where physique isn't a factor. I really don't think if half of Scotland's curling team were trans it would matter a jot, the same with any other sport where it's skill not strength that matters.
Strength matters for sweeping in curling AIUI. Maybe horse riding or sailing where the inputs are less direct. At the top level women don't seem to match men in even in snooker or darts, although perhaps the gap narrows relative to something like rugby.Generally, if it's a sport, it probably does matter. I think there's speculation women might have an advantage over men in some ultra endurance running distances once you get into the hundreds of miles, where sleep is required, but I'm not sure the argument is quite settled, mainly because so few people compete over such distances.
p2c said:
It doesn't matter, its clear from this thread that no trans athlete would be acceptable. It's a shame Chris Mosier was injured in trials though, his presence also would have been great support to Laurel competing rather than her being alone.
Will it be a PR disaster, of coarse it will. Trans people still breathing is a PR disaster, It won't matter what we do, there will be negative press about us, may as well get it over and done with and we don't get to choose those who step out into the light, I have great respect for her, its going to be a stfest for the next month or so, but that's nothing new, as I said previous, trans people will be under attack in the press, social media, government and courts tomorrow no matter what, It makes no odds at this point what in particular its about.
Leave Twitter, it is a cesspit.Will it be a PR disaster, of coarse it will. Trans people still breathing is a PR disaster, It won't matter what we do, there will be negative press about us, may as well get it over and done with and we don't get to choose those who step out into the light, I have great respect for her, its going to be a s
tfest for the next month or so, but that's nothing new, as I said previous, trans people will be under attack in the press, social media, government and courts tomorrow no matter what, It makes no odds at this point what in particular its about.Calling people transphobic, or other terms, isn't helpful, especially when many of those people are the sort of people who could well be sympathetic, understanding and accepting, rather than driven away because they are seen as insufficiently pro-trans for your liking.
It isn't a great trans war. Most people probably don't care either way, so polarising them could be detrimental.
ZedLeg said:
Yeah, I don't think that the people commenting with the doom nonsense actually understand how small a minority trans people actually are. There just isn't the population to support this assertation that they're going to take over women's sport.
It would only take 1 per sport.Or a dodgy government. If Putin wasn't so anti rainbow flag, you'd expect some serious recruitment plan - given the vast gulf between male and female physical attributes, all anyone needs is to find a trans club standard athlete and give them some proper training.
I was at a company thing once and the motivational bit was done by ex team gb rowers (did it make the boat go faster?) The lady speaker explained that her 8 was made up mainly from people actively recruited by british rowing, and that she'd not been a rower until approached by team GB with "hey want to come row? We're sesrching for potential olympians" etc.
Not a big leap to see countries with larger trans communities like Brazil and Thailand suddenly being olympic powerhouses.
MC Bodge said:
Leave Twitter, it is a cesspit.
Calling people transphobic, or other terms, isn't helpful, especially when many of those people are the sort of people who could well be sympathetic, understanding and accepting, rather than driven away because they are seen as insufficiently pro-trans for your liking.
It isn't a great trans war. Most people probably don't care either way, so polarising them could be detrimental.
It’s entirely right to call transphobes transphobic.Calling people transphobic, or other terms, isn't helpful, especially when many of those people are the sort of people who could well be sympathetic, understanding and accepting, rather than driven away because they are seen as insufficiently pro-trans for your liking.
It isn't a great trans war. Most people probably don't care either way, so polarising them could be detrimental.
It’s another example of people being expected to be polite and reasonable in the face of people who don’t want them to exist.
You’re right that it isn’t a war, it’s a one sided attack on people just trying to live their lives.
ZedLeg said:
MC Bodge said:
Leave Twitter, it is a cesspit.
Calling people transphobic, or other terms, isn't helpful, especially when many of those people are the sort of people who could well be sympathetic, understanding and accepting, rather than driven away because they are seen as insufficiently pro-trans for your liking.
It isn't a great trans war. Most people probably don't care either way, so polarising them could be detrimental.
It’s entirely right to call transphobes transphobic.Calling people transphobic, or other terms, isn't helpful, especially when many of those people are the sort of people who could well be sympathetic, understanding and accepting, rather than driven away because they are seen as insufficiently pro-trans for your liking.
It isn't a great trans war. Most people probably don't care either way, so polarising them could be detrimental.
It’s another example of people being expected to be polite and reasonable in the face of people who don’t want them to exist.
You’re right that it isn’t a war, it’s a one sided attack on people just trying to live their lives.
Personally I have defended trans rights on other threads, but this is the canonical example of a case where gender is irrelevant and segregation is for reasons of physical sex. If a transphobe devised a hill upon which to invite trans allies to die upon, this is it. It’s a trap, and Hubbard is too selfish or too blinkered to see it. By acting out a scenario in which equality is patently ridiculous, she feeds the gammon narrative that all trans equality is ridiculous and comes with a side order of throwing cis women under the bus. If she can’t see or doesn’t care what chasing her person glory costs, she’s not a good person.
ZedLeg said:
768 said:
Some Gump said:
It would only take 1 per sport.
Not even that many, as someone pointed out a decathlete could have a go at quite a few events.ZedLeg said:
768 said:
Some Gump said:
It would only take 1 per sport.
Not even that many, as someone pointed out a decathlete could have a go at quite a few events.ZedLeg said:
The UK is at the centre of an international network of anti trans campaigners. People like Posie Parker have been meeting up with christian far right groups in the US to discuss their common interests in attacking members of the LGBT+ community.
There's also the large number of well loved british celebrities that can't help but show their support for the "gender critical" movement.
Perhaps a lot of the people in this country aren't as liberal and progressive as you'd like to think they are.
Is this as well as the international league of lesbians that a mad transactivist was shouting about ?There's also the large number of well loved british celebrities that can't help but show their support for the "gender critical" movement.
Perhaps a lot of the people in this country aren't as liberal and progressive as you'd like to think they are.
It’s funny how the allegations have went from TRANSPHOBES ! to FAR RIGHT CHRISTIANS! to ITS LIKE ANTI SEMITISM !
Absolutely pathetic and with no foundation. Misogynistic and narcissistic individuals aplenty in the trans movement , but “be kind” ?
p2c said:
Emma Hilton who was one of the key researchers for world rugby policy is a founding member of a gender critical lobby group that hound any organisation with trans inclusion policies or statements, are campaigning to shut down stonewall because of their trans inclusion, have written to every stonewall diversity champion calling for them to drop stonewall over their trans inclusion and have the ear of government and EHRC
As for the so called research World rugby conducted, It involved or studied the performance of zero elite trans athletes.
Dr Emma Hilton the development biologist? Misogynistic much eh ?As for the so called research World rugby conducted, It involved or studied the performance of zero elite trans athletes.
p2c said:
Nobody cared about trans people in sport until the heritage foundation in conjunction with a few key gender critical from the UK decided it was the next front they were going to open up against us. Shortly thereafter despite no trans athletes being in any elite competitive position it all blew up. We had no say in it, all trans people can do is defend ourselvs with the knowledge that HRT makes a hell of a difference, one that no cis person can understand as no other groups of healthy people eliminate testosterone from their bodies.
Women cared. Then once the rules were changed re advice from a transwoman, more people started noticing.
Not your secret intergalactic group of people against the poor trans folx.
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