CV19 - Cure worse than the disease? (Vol 13)
Discussion
Ntv said:
Colonel Cupcake said:
Ntv said:
Any update on the statistical freak that was the death of 4 serving BA pilots in a week ... deaths that were not "linked" according to BA?
They're all still dead.Despite BA's mysterious insistence the deaths are not linked this non-expert has found a number of linkages:
- they are all dead
- they all died in the same week
- they all flew a lot
- they were all serving pilots working for BA
- they were all male
- together they constitute a statistical freak in a safety-critical industry that demands explanation
Edited by pushthebutton on Thursday 24th June 20:19
Nickgnome said:
Please read my last sentence above, first. It is key.
Every situation will have a probability impact. If say two people share a bed and have intimate contact the rate will be different to 2 people in a room and different agin as they move around a house. But for each of these very particular situation the probability will be broadly similar i.e a constant for each situation. That does not impact the 20% or 50% and could be overlaid was a 3rd factor.
At some point variables have to be taken out to get a good like for like comparison. It's just data analysis. None of this impacts on the benefit of the infected person being vaccinated as an impact to the vaccinated but uninfected person.
And for such analysis to be useful, you need to state your assumptions clearly. Particularly if you're deliberately picking the worst case as opposed to the most likely one. Otherwise it can look like one is pushing an agenda.Every situation will have a probability impact. If say two people share a bed and have intimate contact the rate will be different to 2 people in a room and different agin as they move around a house. But for each of these very particular situation the probability will be broadly similar i.e a constant for each situation. That does not impact the 20% or 50% and could be overlaid was a 3rd factor.
At some point variables have to be taken out to get a good like for like comparison. It's just data analysis. None of this impacts on the benefit of the infected person being vaccinated as an impact to the vaccinated but uninfected person.
Edited by Nickgnome on Thursday 24th June 17:47
gareth_r said:
gareth_r said:
TheJimi said:
Someone recently posted an embedded set of quotes, with the date, person and commentary re use of masks from Whitty, Van Tam etc
Can anyone remember the post? If so, could you repost, please?
I think you're referring to one of my posts.Can anyone remember the post? If so, could you repost, please?
I'll try to find it, but in the meantime, the quotes were taken from this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHGtyH0SYsc
EDIT:
From the video, plus this SAGE SPI-B report >> https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/spi-b-t...
EDIT again: Sorry, incorrect date on the first quote.
garethr said:
Whitty on the 4th of March 2020 said:
In terms of wearing a mask our advice is clear, that wearing a mask if you don't have an infection really reduces the risk not at all, so we do not advise that.
Van Tam on the 3rd of April 2020 said:
Wearing of masks by the general public. This has been a controversial area in pandemic preparedness and planning for the fifteen years that I have been involved in it, and, indeed, I was on the 'phone this morning to a colleague in Hong Kong, who's a professor there, who's done the evidence review for the World Health Organisation on face masks, and we're of the same mind, that there is no evidence that general wearing of face masks by the public who are well affects the spread of the disease in our society. But in terms of the hard evidence and what the UK government recommends; we do not recommend face masks for general wearing by the public.
Vallance on the 23rd of April 2020 said:
The evidence on face masks has always been quite weak, quite variable, quite difficult to know, and there's no real trials on it.
SAGE on the 28th of April 2020 said:
The recommendation from SAGE is completely clear, which is that there is weak evidence of a small effect in which a face mask can prevent a source of infection going from somebody to the people around them. But the answer is clear, that the evidence is weak and the effect is small and we've passed that on to our colleagues in government with which to make a decision.
SAGE SPI:B on 20th April 2020 said:
Wearing facemasks outside of the house could complement existing government messaging of social responsibility if communicated alongside the effectiveness of masks in protecting others who are not infected. Wearing a facemask could demonstrate that an individual is concerned for other peoples’ welfare and is enacting desired social norms around safety and hygiene.
I'd still be interested to know if the Chief Medical Officer, the Deputy Chief Medical Officer, the Chief Scientific Officer, and SAGE are spectacularly useless at their jobs, or just lacking in Google-fu, since many posters in this and other PH threads found conclusive evidence that masks work, which the most expert experts in the UK failed to discover, with a few minutes of internet research. 
Edited by gareth_r on Thursday 24th June 13:18
I’ve looked at lots of literature and basically masks on the whole can’t be shown to be noticeably good or bad. They’re just benign. The main reason all along has been psychological: showing you’re doing something. Some of the rushed studies that came out shortly after the more world-wide outbreak “proving” they worked are quite easy to poke holes in for anyone of a scientific bent. But they’ve served their purpose now.
Absolutely pathetic way to carry on in my view. I still see people driving alone in their cars wearing them. Out in the park with no one around them.
The best one I’ve had so far though is the women running the canteen at work. Most of them don’t care, but this young lady who wasn’t wearing a mask and had just been hanging out in the kitchen with all the others, demanded I put my mask on or I wouldn’t be served. Baring in mind I’d entered without a mask and she was stood 3ft in front of me when she made the demand…..
I actually didn’t know where to start but thought it would probably be a wasted effort trying to explain anything to someone with such a dearth of critical thinking. What’s that saying? Can’t use logic to reason someone out of a position attained by emotion?
foreright said:
Hoink said:
Happy is a strange word to use when describing how you've felt through this.
What about the younger members of your family? Do you have children, grandchildren, nieces or nephews, etc? Do you not feel for them?
Don’t feed the gnome…What about the younger members of your family? Do you have children, grandchildren, nieces or nephews, etc? Do you not feel for them?
The people who blithely tell us that they are entirely happy with lockdowns and that we should stop whinging and simply do as we are told seem to believe that they are on the moral high ground.
I think they have abandoned all morality.
I see lockdown as an act of aggression. A direct attack on the welfare of my family and the people I care about. It's proponents did not give a moments thought to the stupidity of lockdown, it's inherent unfairness or the damage and despair that it has caused. They care nothing for its long term impact or the many ways that it has changed our society for the worse.
Lockdown is the action of a totalitarian state. Neil Ferguson famously said that no one believed we would accept the sort of authoritarian control that China used to stamp down on COVID at the expense of its people. And we should not have accepted it.
I can forgive people who went along with it at first when we didn't know what we were dealing with. If it had been airborne ebola than perhaps our response might have made sense. But its not. It is a s
tty little virus that ruthlessly attacks the most vulnerable in society, whilst causing little real trouble to everyone else. The people who continue to cheer on restrictions now that the vulnerable are vaccinated do not deserve any respect. They are selfish immoral cowards who have inverted everything that this country stood for. They have torched our democratic history and they threaten our childrens future.
I think that slowly, inexorably, the truth of this will begin to emerge. To the point that, eventually, everyone will claim to have opposed lockdown. Sadly this was not the case. Its proponents are guilty of an unimaginative, stupid, banal evil and I very much hope to see the worst offenders stand trial for what I believe is a crime against humanity.
I don't think these views are strange. I think it is strange that so many people do not share them. That their inner morality is a fleeting, mishapen thing that they are willing to twist and contort. So that they can convince themselves that just about anything is acceptable, provided that they perceive it to be in their own selfish interests.
I am sorry if this offends anyone, but it is my deeply held belief. I will not easily forgive the states appalling intrusion in our private family lives over the last 16 months. Things have been taken from us that can never be replaced and I hope there will be a steep price to pay by those responsible.
Edited by Elysium on Thursday 24th June 21:01
RSTurboPaul said:
Good job all that talk of Vaccine Passports was just a load of old conspiracy theory bks, eh?
Yes, I look forwards to all the mea culpas from everyone who was shouting abuse. Oh, wait, they're still doing it, without an ounce of self awareness or shame about being wrong for about the 16th time.ks, eh?The debacle of England players isolating seems to have highlighted the absurdity of the rules and it's apparent that thousands of fans commenting in social media treat the whole thing with disdain. A far cry from political threads on Twitter where you're guaranteed a bedwetter justifying the rules every few posts.
Elysium said:
Some people might think this is a bit of an 'extreme' post, but I want to get this off my chest.
The people who blithely tell us that they are entirely happy with lockdowns and that we should stop whinging and simply do as we are told seem to believe that they are on the moral high ground.
I think they have abandoned all morality.
I see lockdown as an act of aggression. A direct attack on the welfare of my family and the people I care about. It's proponents did not give a moments thought to the stupidity of lockdown, it's inherent unfairness or the damage and despair that it has caused. They care nothing for its long term impact or the many ways that it has changed our society for the worse.
Lockdown is the action of a totalitarian state. Neil Ferguson famously said that no one believed we would accept the sort of authoritarian control that China used to stamp down on COVID at the expense of its people. And we should not have accepted it.
I can forgive people who went along with it at first when we didn't know what we were dealing with. If it had been airborne ebola than perhaps our response might have made sense. But its not. It is a stty little virus that ruthlessly attacks the most vulnerable in society, whilst causing little real trouble to everyone else.
The people who continue to cheer on restrictions now that the vulnerable are vaccinated do not deserve any respect. They are selfish immoral cowards who have inverted everything that this country stood for. They have torched our democratic history and they threaten our childrens future.
I think that slowly, inexorably, the truth of this will begin to emerge. To the point that, eventually, everyone will claim to have opposed lockdown. Sadly this was not the case. Its proponents are guilty of an unimaginative, stupid, banal evil and I very much hope to see the worst offenders stand trial for what I believe is a crime against humanity.
I don't think these views are strange. I think it is strange that so many people do not share them. That their inner morality is a fleeting, mishapen thing that they are willing to twist and contort. So that they can convince themselves that just about anything is acceptable, provided that they perceive it to be in their own selfish interests.
I am sorry if this offends anyone, but it is my deeply held belief. I will not easily forgive the states appalling intrusion in our private family lives over the last 16 months. Things have been taken from us that can never be replaced and I hope there will be a steep price to pay by those responsible.
(Yet) another good post The people who blithely tell us that they are entirely happy with lockdowns and that we should stop whinging and simply do as we are told seem to believe that they are on the moral high ground.
I think they have abandoned all morality.
I see lockdown as an act of aggression. A direct attack on the welfare of my family and the people I care about. It's proponents did not give a moments thought to the stupidity of lockdown, it's inherent unfairness or the damage and despair that it has caused. They care nothing for its long term impact or the many ways that it has changed our society for the worse.
Lockdown is the action of a totalitarian state. Neil Ferguson famously said that no one believed we would accept the sort of authoritarian control that China used to stamp down on COVID at the expense of its people. And we should not have accepted it.
I can forgive people who went along with it at first when we didn't know what we were dealing with. If it had been airborne ebola than perhaps our response might have made sense. But its not. It is a s
tty little virus that ruthlessly attacks the most vulnerable in society, whilst causing little real trouble to everyone else. The people who continue to cheer on restrictions now that the vulnerable are vaccinated do not deserve any respect. They are selfish immoral cowards who have inverted everything that this country stood for. They have torched our democratic history and they threaten our childrens future.
I think that slowly, inexorably, the truth of this will begin to emerge. To the point that, eventually, everyone will claim to have opposed lockdown. Sadly this was not the case. Its proponents are guilty of an unimaginative, stupid, banal evil and I very much hope to see the worst offenders stand trial for what I believe is a crime against humanity.
I don't think these views are strange. I think it is strange that so many people do not share them. That their inner morality is a fleeting, mishapen thing that they are willing to twist and contort. So that they can convince themselves that just about anything is acceptable, provided that they perceive it to be in their own selfish interests.
I am sorry if this offends anyone, but it is my deeply held belief. I will not easily forgive the states appalling intrusion in our private family lives over the last 16 months. Things have been taken from us that can never be replaced and I hope there will be a steep price to pay by those responsible.
Edited by Elysium on Thursday 24th June 21:01
johnboy1975 said:
Elysium said:
Some people might think this is a bit of an 'extreme' post, but I want to get this off my chest.
The people who blithely tell us that they are entirely happy with lockdowns and that we should stop whinging and simply do as we are told seem to believe that they are on the moral high ground.
I think they have abandoned all morality.
I see lockdown as an act of aggression. A direct attack on the welfare of my family and the people I care about. It's proponents did not give a moments thought to the stupidity of lockdown, it's inherent unfairness or the damage and despair that it has caused. They care nothing for its long term impact or the many ways that it has changed our society for the worse.
Lockdown is the action of a totalitarian state. Neil Ferguson famously said that no one believed we would accept the sort of authoritarian control that China used to stamp down on COVID at the expense of its people. And we should not have accepted it.
I can forgive people who went along with it at first when we didn't know what we were dealing with. If it had been airborne ebola than perhaps our response might have made sense. But its not. It is a stty little virus that ruthlessly attacks the most vulnerable in society, whilst causing little real trouble to everyone else.
The people who continue to cheer on restrictions now that the vulnerable are vaccinated do not deserve any respect. They are selfish immoral cowards who have inverted everything that this country stood for. They have torched our democratic history and they threaten our childrens future.
I think that slowly, inexorably, the truth of this will begin to emerge. To the point that, eventually, everyone will claim to have opposed lockdown. Sadly this was not the case. Its proponents are guilty of an unimaginative, stupid, banal evil and I very much hope to see the worst offenders stand trial for what I believe is a crime against humanity.
I don't think these views are strange. I think it is strange that so many people do not share them. That their inner morality is a fleeting, mishapen thing that they are willing to twist and contort. So that they can convince themselves that just about anything is acceptable, provided that they perceive it to be in their own selfish interests.
I am sorry if this offends anyone, but it is my deeply held belief. I will not easily forgive the states appalling intrusion in our private family lives over the last 16 months. Things have been taken from us that can never be replaced and I hope there will be a steep price to pay by those responsible.
(Yet) another good post The people who blithely tell us that they are entirely happy with lockdowns and that we should stop whinging and simply do as we are told seem to believe that they are on the moral high ground.
I think they have abandoned all morality.
I see lockdown as an act of aggression. A direct attack on the welfare of my family and the people I care about. It's proponents did not give a moments thought to the stupidity of lockdown, it's inherent unfairness or the damage and despair that it has caused. They care nothing for its long term impact or the many ways that it has changed our society for the worse.
Lockdown is the action of a totalitarian state. Neil Ferguson famously said that no one believed we would accept the sort of authoritarian control that China used to stamp down on COVID at the expense of its people. And we should not have accepted it.
I can forgive people who went along with it at first when we didn't know what we were dealing with. If it had been airborne ebola than perhaps our response might have made sense. But its not. It is a s
tty little virus that ruthlessly attacks the most vulnerable in society, whilst causing little real trouble to everyone else. The people who continue to cheer on restrictions now that the vulnerable are vaccinated do not deserve any respect. They are selfish immoral cowards who have inverted everything that this country stood for. They have torched our democratic history and they threaten our childrens future.
I think that slowly, inexorably, the truth of this will begin to emerge. To the point that, eventually, everyone will claim to have opposed lockdown. Sadly this was not the case. Its proponents are guilty of an unimaginative, stupid, banal evil and I very much hope to see the worst offenders stand trial for what I believe is a crime against humanity.
I don't think these views are strange. I think it is strange that so many people do not share them. That their inner morality is a fleeting, mishapen thing that they are willing to twist and contort. So that they can convince themselves that just about anything is acceptable, provided that they perceive it to be in their own selfish interests.
I am sorry if this offends anyone, but it is my deeply held belief. I will not easily forgive the states appalling intrusion in our private family lives over the last 16 months. Things have been taken from us that can never be replaced and I hope there will be a steep price to pay by those responsible.
Edited by Elysium on Thursday 24th June 21:01
Elysium said:
The people who continue to cheer on restrictions now that the vulnerable are vaccinated do not deserve any respect. They are selfish immoral cowards who have inverted everything that this country stood for. They have torched our democratic history and they threaten our childrens future.
Absolutely!Elysium said:
Some people might think this is a bit of an 'extreme' post, but I want to get this off my chest.
The people who blithely tell us that they are entirely happy with lockdowns and that we should stop whinging and simply do as we are told seem to believe that they are on the moral high ground.
I think they have abandoned all morality.
I see lockdown as an act of aggression. A direct attack on the welfare of my family and the people I care about. It's proponents did not give a moments thought to the stupidity of lockdown, it's inherent unfairness or the damage and despair that it has caused. They care nothing for its long term impact or the many ways that it has changed our society for the worse.
Lockdown is the action of a totalitarian state. Neil Ferguson famously said that no one believed we would accept the sort of authoritarian control that China used to stamp down on COVID at the expense of its people. And we should not have accepted it.
I can forgive people who went along with it at first when we didn't know what we were dealing with. If it had been airborne ebola than perhaps our response might have made sense. But its not. It is a stty little virus that ruthlessly attacks the most vulnerable in society, whilst causing little real trouble to everyone else.
The people who continue to cheer on restrictions now that the vulnerable are vaccinated do not deserve any respect. They are selfish immoral cowards who have inverted everything that this country stood for. They have torched our democratic history and they threaten our childrens future.
I think that slowly, inexorably, the truth of this will begin to emerge. To the point that, eventually, everyone will claim to have opposed lockdown. Sadly this was not the case. Its proponents are guilty of an unimaginative, stupid, banal evil and I very much hope to see the worst offenders stand trial for what I believe is a crime against humanity.
I don't think these views are strange. I think it is strange that so many people do not share them. That their inner morality is a fleeting, mishapen thing that they are willing to twist and contort. So that they can convince themselves that just about anything is acceptable, provided that they perceive it to be in their own selfish interests.
I am sorry if this offends anyone, but it is my deeply held belief. I will not easily forgive the states appalling intrusion in our private family lives over the last 16 months. Things have been taken from us that can never be replaced and I hope there will be a steep price to pay by those responsible.
Plus several thousand. The people who blithely tell us that they are entirely happy with lockdowns and that we should stop whinging and simply do as we are told seem to believe that they are on the moral high ground.
I think they have abandoned all morality.
I see lockdown as an act of aggression. A direct attack on the welfare of my family and the people I care about. It's proponents did not give a moments thought to the stupidity of lockdown, it's inherent unfairness or the damage and despair that it has caused. They care nothing for its long term impact or the many ways that it has changed our society for the worse.
Lockdown is the action of a totalitarian state. Neil Ferguson famously said that no one believed we would accept the sort of authoritarian control that China used to stamp down on COVID at the expense of its people. And we should not have accepted it.
I can forgive people who went along with it at first when we didn't know what we were dealing with. If it had been airborne ebola than perhaps our response might have made sense. But its not. It is a s
tty little virus that ruthlessly attacks the most vulnerable in society, whilst causing little real trouble to everyone else. The people who continue to cheer on restrictions now that the vulnerable are vaccinated do not deserve any respect. They are selfish immoral cowards who have inverted everything that this country stood for. They have torched our democratic history and they threaten our childrens future.
I think that slowly, inexorably, the truth of this will begin to emerge. To the point that, eventually, everyone will claim to have opposed lockdown. Sadly this was not the case. Its proponents are guilty of an unimaginative, stupid, banal evil and I very much hope to see the worst offenders stand trial for what I believe is a crime against humanity.
I don't think these views are strange. I think it is strange that so many people do not share them. That their inner morality is a fleeting, mishapen thing that they are willing to twist and contort. So that they can convince themselves that just about anything is acceptable, provided that they perceive it to be in their own selfish interests.
I am sorry if this offends anyone, but it is my deeply held belief. I will not easily forgive the states appalling intrusion in our private family lives over the last 16 months. Things have been taken from us that can never be replaced and I hope there will be a steep price to pay by those responsible.
Edited by Elysium on Thursday 24th June 21:01
Twinfan said:
Nickgnome said:
Please read my last sentence above, first. It is key.
Every situation will have a probability impact. If say two people share a bed and have intimate contact the rate will be different to 2 people in a room and different agin as they move around a house. But for each of these very particular situation the probability will be broadly similar i.e a constant for each situation. That does not impact the 20% or 50% and could be overlaid was a 3rd factor.
At some point variables have to be taken out to get a good like for like comparison. It's just data analysis. None of this impacts on the benefit of the infected person being vaccinated as an impact to the vaccinated but uninfected person.
I'm a data analyst by trade and that makes fEvery situation will have a probability impact. If say two people share a bed and have intimate contact the rate will be different to 2 people in a room and different agin as they move around a house. But for each of these very particular situation the probability will be broadly similar i.e a constant for each situation. That does not impact the 20% or 50% and could be overlaid was a 3rd factor.
At some point variables have to be taken out to get a good like for like comparison. It's just data analysis. None of this impacts on the benefit of the infected person being vaccinated as an impact to the vaccinated but uninfected person.
k all sense to me.Does anyone else understand what the chuff he's on about?
pushthebutton said:
Ntv said:
Colonel Cupcake said:
Ntv said:
Any update on the statistical freak that was the death of 4 serving BA pilots in a week ... deaths that were not "linked" according to BA?
They're all still dead.Despite BA's mysterious insistence the deaths are not linked this non-expert has found a number of linkages:
- they are all dead
- they all died in the same week
- they all flew a lot
- they were all serving pilots working for BA
- they were all male
- together they constitute a statistical freak in a safety-critical industry that demands explanation
Edited by pushthebutton on Thursday 24th June 20:19
I wouldn’t say I’m particularly excited by people who are going along with it all credulously. I’m certainly surprised by the unquestioning way in which those people have complied for so long and, if the polls are to be believed, the broad support that still exists. And I’m dismayed that the civil liberty and constitutional aspects have not really been debated, outside of those who have been following Sumption. But, ultimately I’m not going to castigate people who are largely behaving in good faith- I think it’s foolish but not malign.
Of course, I wouldn’t extend that to the politicians who, on all sides, have shown a real lack of leadership and critical thinking. Far too willing to hide behind scientific advice which has purported a much higher degree of certainty than was warranted and obviously being more consumed by the inevitable inquiry (which will, have no doubt, have a scope limited to COVID) than in taking hard decisions.
Where I do draw the line, however, is the obvious glee that some people derive from this whole situation. That insular, sneering delight in the control of others and an “I’m all right Jack” mentality. Awful.
Of course, I wouldn’t extend that to the politicians who, on all sides, have shown a real lack of leadership and critical thinking. Far too willing to hide behind scientific advice which has purported a much higher degree of certainty than was warranted and obviously being more consumed by the inevitable inquiry (which will, have no doubt, have a scope limited to COVID) than in taking hard decisions.
Where I do draw the line, however, is the obvious glee that some people derive from this whole situation. That insular, sneering delight in the control of others and an “I’m all right Jack” mentality. Awful.
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