CV19 - Cure worse than the disease? (Vol 13)
Discussion
Alucidnation said:
anonymous said:
[redacted]
News said earlier cases have increased in the last 24 hours?The huge day-on-day drops last week were unusual, but likely down to a perfect combination of a post Euros slump, good weather, schools closing and ever growing immunity.
isaldiri said:
Ligne said:
Another caller said he had a number of friends who were double jabbed yet still caught Covid and so what was the point. Prof Van Tam flipped it around to say "had they not had the vaccine they'd PROBABLY have ended up in hospital, and possibly worse".
Probably definition: almost certainly; as far as one knows or can tell.
Which is pretty bloody likely untrue as well. Probably definition: almost certainly; as far as one knows or can tell.
Vaccination does not obviously reduce symptom severity by whatever % that efficacy is claimed at. it is a pretty clear wilful misrepresentation to claim that if someone got covid while jabbed up and felt quite ill, that person would then necessarily have been far more ill had it not been for the vaccine.
As far as most if not all of the data has shown, there is an obvious reduction of incidence of severe illness but that's achieved by relatively much ess people getting badly ill rather than through those getting it all being far less ill. there is quite a difference between the 2 things..... While there is an understandable drive by the medical authorities to encourage as many people to take up the vaccines for decent enough reasons, it is also just inexplicable to me that someone like van Tam, given his position in particular, could just blatantly claim something like that.
Andy888 said:
Also, hadn't realised France had gone just this far:
"Macron announced that from 21 July, anyone visiting a theatre, cinema, sports venue or festival with an audience of more than 50 people would need a health pass proving they were either fully vaccinated, had tested negative or were immune.
The same requirement will be extended to bars, cafes, restaurants, shopping centres (though not supermarkets), hospitals, long-distance trains, coaches and planes from 1 August, he said – including for children aged between 12 and 17 from 1 September.
People unable to present a valid health pass risk up to six months in prison and a fine of up to €10,000 (£8,500), according to the draft text of the law, while owners of “establishments welcoming the public” who fail to check patrons’ passes could go to jail for a year and be hit with a €45,000 fine."
The last paragraph is a bit extreme.
I agree it is...but didn't it get kicked off the draft by the French Parliament before it was passed?"Macron announced that from 21 July, anyone visiting a theatre, cinema, sports venue or festival with an audience of more than 50 people would need a health pass proving they were either fully vaccinated, had tested negative or were immune.
The same requirement will be extended to bars, cafes, restaurants, shopping centres (though not supermarkets), hospitals, long-distance trains, coaches and planes from 1 August, he said – including for children aged between 12 and 17 from 1 September.
People unable to present a valid health pass risk up to six months in prison and a fine of up to €10,000 (£8,500), according to the draft text of the law, while owners of “establishments welcoming the public” who fail to check patrons’ passes could go to jail for a year and be hit with a €45,000 fine."
The last paragraph is a bit extreme.
ETA - they left the bit in about healthcare workers not getting double-jabbed and risking a year in prison...
Edited by Legend83 on Thursday 29th July 20:55
SS2. said:
If Ferguson got within spitting distance of those models, you can probably correct the figures by a couple of orders of magnitude - either up or down, you choose.
I’ve been very open about how I thought Ferguson’s code wasn’t ready for prime time, but those who’ve made it their business to assess his underlying model seem to have found little to fault.skwdenyer said:
SS2. said:
If Ferguson got within spitting distance of those models, you can probably correct the figures by a couple of orders of magnitude - either up or down, you choose.
I’ve been very open about how I thought Ferguson’s code wasn’t ready for prime time, but those who’ve made it their business to assess his underlying model seem to have found little to fault.grumbledoak said:
If there’s anyone here who was in any doubt until now, there’s the final proof. There’s no denying what this is really about at this point and anyone who says otherwise can go f**k themselves. V1nce Fox said:
If there’s anyone here who was in any doubt until now, there’s the final proof. There’s no denying what this is really about at this point and anyone who says otherwise can go f**k themselves.
It is hard to believe that anyone did not see this being assembled right in front of their eyes, but people continue to surprise us.Where does it end, though?
grumbledoak said:
V1nce Fox said:
If there’s anyone here who was in any doubt until now, there’s the final proof. There’s no denying what this is really about at this point and anyone who says otherwise can go f**k themselves.
It is hard to believe that anyone did not see this being assembled right in front of their eyes, but people continue to surprise us.Where does it end, though?
where it ends is the concern and all I can hope for is that Labour and the 80 Tory MPs who have said they are opposed to it all, have the gonads to stand up and be counted.
Sadly I am not going to hold my breath on that one.
If anyone has any idea how we can stop it all, then please let us know pdq.
grumbledoak said:
I always wondered what it would be like to be an outlaw!skwdenyer said:
SS2. said:
If Ferguson got within spitting distance of those models, you can probably correct the figures by a couple of orders of magnitude - either up or down, you choose.
I’ve been very open about how I thought Ferguson’s code wasn’t ready for prime time, but those who’ve made it their business to assess his underlying model seem to have found little to fault.Note - not delayed, prevented . Time will tell I guess. Sounds crazy high even for 'delayed' to this layman, given we are at 10m ish (5m official??) over the past 18 months.....
You can pin the tail on the donkey for a figure for the deaths, but obviously they wouldn't have let it get that high sans vaccine, they would have reintroduced "measures". So they haven't prevented 60k deaths, they've given us an extra fortnight down the pub
Edited by johnboy1975 on Thursday 29th July 21:41
Sounds like Biden is in the process of jumping the shark. (I'm only half listening....)
Things like "the primary goal of the vaccine is to reduce symptoms" (fair enough) followed by basically enticing / begging/ forcing people who wouldn't get ill (statistically) to take said vaccine.
Things like "the primary goal of the vaccine is to reduce symptoms" (fair enough) followed by basically enticing / begging/ forcing people who wouldn't get ill (statistically) to take said vaccine.
Ligne said:
Whilst I was driving home earlier Radio One played a 15 minute segment with Prof Van Tam answering questions on the vaccine from Joe Public.
Two people asked why they should get a vaccine as they'd already had Covid and were young fit and healthy. He gave a very thorough answer but chose not to pay any attention at all to the key point that they'd already had Covid.
Another caller said he had a number of friends who were double jabbed yet still caught Covid and so what was the point. Prof Van Tam flipped it around to say "had they not had the vaccine they'd PROBABLY have ended up in hospital, and possibly worse".
Probably definition: almost certainly; as far as one knows or can tell.
Ridiculous.
I caught that part way through as well and thought who have they paid to come and make this stuff up. Few minutes later they mention Van Tam.Two people asked why they should get a vaccine as they'd already had Covid and were young fit and healthy. He gave a very thorough answer but chose not to pay any attention at all to the key point that they'd already had Covid.
Another caller said he had a number of friends who were double jabbed yet still caught Covid and so what was the point. Prof Van Tam flipped it around to say "had they not had the vaccine they'd PROBABLY have ended up in hospital, and possibly worse".
Probably definition: almost certainly; as far as one knows or can tell.
Ridiculous.
It is absolutely mind boggling that they are pushing stuff like that. Because anyone who isn't completely stupid can check on both of those points and show that he is intentionally being misleading.
Which comes back to the funny old point of it being fine when the right people are doing it.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/07/29/hospit...
Javid finally catching up on dodgy hospitalisation stats.
Javid finally catching up on dodgy hospitalisation stats.
basherX said:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/07/29/hospit...
Javid finally catching up on dodgy hospitalisation stats.
fJavid finally catching up on dodgy hospitalisation stats.
k me, I’ve been saying this for a year and I’m just some random tt on a car forum. If you’re making policy decisions and trying to help people this is key info, why on earth wouldn’t you gather this data? If it wasn’t already being gathered, why wouldn’t you demand it as a priority?
It’s in the same sector as “how many people are we currently treating for covid symptoms” to which the answer, 14 months in, is still “dunno”
Edited by Venturist on Thursday 29th July 21:52
skwdenyer said:
I’ve been very open about how I thought Ferguson’s code wasn’t ready for prime time, but those who’ve made it their business to assess his underlying model seem to have found little to fault.
Because as anyone with any sense who has looked into the whole damned mess from the 'famous' epidemiologists, the issue with their wonky predictions are primarily crap assumptions rather than anything intrinsically wrong with the modelling. st input, st output.This imo is a pretty reasonable critique on the whole problem and worth a scroll through irrespective of where one stands on the pandemic response.
https://twitter.com/phl43/status/14201011891784663...
johnboy1975 said:
Sounds like Biden is in the process of jumping the shark. (I'm only half listening....)
Things like "the primary goal of the vaccine is to reduce symptoms" (fair enough) followed by basically enticing / begging/ forcing people who wouldn't get ill (statistically) to take said vaccine.
So, the covid vaccine is not really performing like a vaccine…Things like "the primary goal of the vaccine is to reduce symptoms" (fair enough) followed by basically enticing / begging/ forcing people who wouldn't get ill (statistically) to take said vaccine.
Venturist said:
basherX said:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/07/29/hospit...
Javid finally catching up on dodgy hospitalisation stats.
fJavid finally catching up on dodgy hospitalisation stats.
k me, I’ve been saying this for a year and I’m just some random tt on a car forum. If you’re making policy decisions and trying to help people this is key info, why on earth wouldn’t you gather this data? If it wasn’t already being gathered, why wouldn’t you demand it as a priority?
It’s in the same sector as “how many people are we currently treating for covid symptoms” to which the answer, 14 months in, is still “dunno”
Edited by Venturist on Thursday 29th July 21:52
Or they knew or suspected what it might show and didn’t want that to come out.
Whatever, it is incompetence of the highest order.
Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff