Aggression by Russia/uk?
Discussion
Newarch said:
Is it? You certainly wouldn't know that from the coverage. They usually do these things as part of an international effort so I'm sure you are correct.
As I understand it there are three ships in a group:U.K. Royal Navy destroyer HMS Defender, USS Laboon an Arleigh Burke class Destroyer and Dutch frigate HMNLS Evertsen
From the report in the Daily Mail the reporter briefly mentions one of the other ships in company reporting it had been missile locked but provides no further details
All three ships are part of task force CSG21 which includes the Carrier HMS QE and others that remained
in the Med
JagLover said:
Bill said:
The Tatar genocide was 1944, after 27 years of Soviet rule and Russian immigration.
However you would like to term it 1944 is over a hundred and fifty years after the start of Russian immigration to the region and census carried out before Communism showed a large Russian population. The 1897 census showed roughly equal numbers of Russians and Tartars in the province at around a third of the population each. The Russian share rose to close to 50% just before WW2.The number of Russians was bound to rise as Sevastopol was one of their principal ports.
Which is also, as I pointed out, a bit besides the point when considering whether the Crimea is Russian or Ukrainian as the Tartars certainly aren't Ukrainian.
Edited by JagLover on Thursday 24th June 11:24
Earthdweller said:
As I understand it there are three ships in a group:
U.K. Royal Navy destroyer HMS Defender, USS Laboon an Arleigh Burke class Destroyer and Dutch frigate HMNLS Evertsen
From the report in the Daily Mail the reporter briefly mentions one of the other ships in company reporting it had been missile locked but provides no further details
All three ships are part of task force CSG21 which includes the Carrier HMS QE and others that remained
in the Med
USS Laboon isn't part of the QE set, the AB class with QE is The Sullivans. USS Laboon is believe sailed into the Black Sea with HMD Defender but has been elsewhere since (namely Romania).U.K. Royal Navy destroyer HMS Defender, USS Laboon an Arleigh Burke class Destroyer and Dutch frigate HMNLS Evertsen
From the report in the Daily Mail the reporter briefly mentions one of the other ships in company reporting it had been missile locked but provides no further details
All three ships are part of task force CSG21 which includes the Carrier HMS QE and others that remained
in the Med
Not sure where the Dutch were during all this.
ATG said:
Peering back at history books is a complete irrelevance when considering if the Crimea is Russian or Ukrainian. What matters is the will of the people living there +/- recent evictions and immigration. It doesn't matter one iota what a Muscovite thinks about Crimea, nor a Londoner, nor a Kyivan.
True in part, but it does give the background for why two thirds of Russians supported the seizure of the Crimea, despite the economic pain it caused. It had a totemic significance similar to how the French regarded Alsace-Lorraine in 1871-1914 and the Crimea was more Russian than Alsace-Lorraine was French.It was always going to remain an open sore until retaken and shouldn't be regarded as a sign of Russian determination to seize all of the lands once held by the Soviet Union, such as the Baltic states, because of the unique history of the province.
Evanivitch said:
jimothyc said:
This is rather similar to the time they transited a Russian aircraft carrier through the English channel on it's way to the Med. We kept a close eye on it at the time, but I beleive we stopped somewhat short of letting off any guns or dropping any bombs.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-38745364
Not similar at all.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-38745364
The Straits of Dover have international law that permits freedom of navigation, which is the same rights that allow the RN to sail into the Black Sea and South China Sea (QEC group destination), despite being within the 12 miles of sovereign nations.
Russia are claiming the RN have sailed within 12 miles of the Russian coast in an area not covered by freedom of navigation. This is wrong. Crimea is not Russian territory.
https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/hms-richmond-escor...
KingNothing said:
Was watching a programme about HMS Duncan the other week, they sailed closed to Crimea, and the Russians came out willy waving back then as well, think they flew about 15 different planes in close proximity to the ship, and tailed it with a Russian ship for most of the time it was in the sea.
I think it was closer to 30 aircraft which certainly got the attention of Duncan's crew.The message from one of the Russian pilots was "Good luck". To be fair, it was quite a display.
jimothyc said:
Military ship goes through international shipping lane near to other country. Other country keeps tabs on ship during transit. How is that not similar? Other than the shooting of course.
All while a BBC correspondent and film crew happened to be on board.Russia is a proper nuisance, but stunts like this will not resolve that issue
jimothyc said:
Evanivitch said:
jimothyc said:
This is rather similar to the time they transited a Russian aircraft carrier through the English channel on it's way to the Med. We kept a close eye on it at the time, but I beleive we stopped somewhat short of letting off any guns or dropping any bombs.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-38745364
Not similar at all.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-38745364
The Straits of Dover have international law that permits freedom of navigation, which is the same rights that allow the RN to sail into the Black Sea and South China Sea (QEC group destination), despite being within the 12 miles of sovereign nations.
Russia are claiming the RN have sailed within 12 miles of the Russian coast in an area not covered by freedom of navigation. This is wrong. Crimea is not Russian territory.
https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/hms-richmond-escor...
The Straits of Dover are within 12 miles of the coast, but there is an internationally recognised Freedom of Navigation applied, just like the Turkish Straits into the Black Sea or the Strait of Gibraltar into the med.
928 GTS said:
JagLover said:
The Crimea is either Russian, Tartar, or the peoples the Tartars displaced (if you want to go ever further back in history). What it has never been is Ukrainian. Khrushchev handed it over to the Ukraine in 1954 without any popular vote on the issue and many believe that this contravened USSR law, but went ahead anyway.
Makes no difference what so ever. Crimea was and still is legal part of independent Ukraine. If local population wants it to be Russian territory it needs to be done without little green men from Moscow. There is only one proper action to correct current situation. Crimea is returned to Ukraine and Russia pays reparations. Until this is done financial sanctions need to be kept and increased up to complete shutdown of trade with it. If this is not done its only matter of time they do it again and again to some other areas.All of this "the Crimean people" and ancient ethnic migration is smoke and mirror bulls
t. The Russians invaded Ukraine because they wanted to secure their access to the Black Sea. That's it.Budapest Memorandum said:
1. The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm their commitment to Ukraine, in accordance with the principles of the Final Act of the Conference on Security and Cooperation in Europe, to respect the independence and sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine.
2. The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm their obligation to refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine, and that none of their weapons will ever be used against Ukraine except in self-defence or otherwise in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations.
2. The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm their obligation to refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine, and that none of their weapons will ever be used against Ukraine except in self-defence or otherwise in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations.
Newarch said:
Barring accidents that's extremely unlikely, people are mistaking posturing for actual aggression here.
No one really wants an escalation anyway, because it doesn't really benefit anyone.
LOL with the professionalism of Russian aviation ? Cant imagine anything less likely to have accidents, or not No one really wants an escalation anyway, because it doesn't really benefit anyone.
nikaiyo2 said:
Newarch said:
Barring accidents that's extremely unlikely, people are mistaking posturing for actual aggression here.
No one really wants an escalation anyway, because it doesn't really benefit anyone.
LOL with the professionalism of Russian aviation ? Cant imagine anything less likely to have accidents, or not No one really wants an escalation anyway, because it doesn't really benefit anyone.
JagLover said:
ATG said:
Peering back at history books is a complete irrelevance when considering if the Crimea is Russian or Ukrainian. What matters is the will of the people living there +/- recent evictions and immigration. It doesn't matter one iota what a Muscovite thinks about Crimea, nor a Londoner, nor a Kyivan.
True in part, but it does give the background for why two thirds of Russians supported the seizure of the Crimea, despite the economic pain it caused. It had a totemic significance similar to how the French regarded Alsace-Lorraine in 1871-1914 and the Crimea was more Russian than Alsace-Lorraine was French.It was always going to remain an open sore until retaken and shouldn't be regarded as a sign of Russian determination to seize all of the lands once held by the Soviet Union, such as the Baltic states, because of the unique history of the province.
Edited by ATG on Thursday 24th June 14:05
Trevor555 said:
Oh I agree, but I'm still curious as to what the UK's response would be.
Does the captain have immediate authority to strike back? Or would our government have 10 meetings before any decision was made?
The rules of engagement would usually have been agreed between Govt and Navy before the ship entered Crimean waters. What those rules are are kept quite for obvious reasons.Does the captain have immediate authority to strike back? Or would our government have 10 meetings before any decision was made?
Our vessel was there with jounalists on board becuase it was a deliberate - "f
k you, you cant annexe a country illegally and expect to control its waters with impunity"That means most scenarios would have been discussed and rules of engagement set. I expect that if the ship was actually fired on, it would be allowed to retaliate
nikaiyo2 said:
Newarch said:
Barring accidents that's extremely unlikely, people are mistaking posturing for actual aggression here.
No one really wants an escalation anyway, because it doesn't really benefit anyone.
LOL with the professionalism of Russian aviation ? Cant imagine anything less likely to have accidents, or not No one really wants an escalation anyway, because it doesn't really benefit anyone.
Newarch said:
nikaiyo2 said:
Newarch said:
Barring accidents that's extremely unlikely, people are mistaking posturing for actual aggression here.
No one really wants an escalation anyway, because it doesn't really benefit anyone.
LOL with the professionalism of Russian aviation ? Cant imagine anything less likely to have accidents, or not No one really wants an escalation anyway, because it doesn't really benefit anyone.
I would be happy getting on a passenger air craft operated from America... I would walk if it was Russian.
I see the Russians have called out fat Bozza’s bluff. After the chemical weapons attack on British soil and the tories utterly toothless response, I wonder what Bozza’s next move will be?
https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/britain-says-dont...
Maybe the Russians won’t allow Bozza to use their Italian villa for his next holibobs if he continues to mess about!
https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/britain-says-dont...
Maybe the Russians won’t allow Bozza to use their Italian villa for his next holibobs if he continues to mess about!
Edited by Unknown_User on Thursday 24th June 17:53
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