Scottish Politics / Independence - Vol 11
Discussion
Even the loudmouth SNP fan having his haircut yesterday in my local town (england) admitted he didn't think Saint Nicola would win the pretendyref. I felt quite sorry for the barber who was subjected to a tirade about how unfair life is for your average Scot and how bad the Tories are. What was very interesting (in amongst the usual SNP propaganda) was he admitted that the majority of the news in Scotland is mainly about how bad/evil Boris and the Tories are.....brainwashed?
I wonder what sort of reception I would have got as an englishman loudly slagging off the SNP, the Scots and Nicola in a barbers in Dundee? But we just put up with this crap from basically, a bunch of bigots.
I wonder what sort of reception I would have got as an englishman loudly slagging off the SNP, the Scots and Nicola in a barbers in Dundee? But we just put up with this crap from basically, a bunch of bigots.
I've seen quite a bit of discussion on Faceache from moderate, sensible Scottish residents who aren't particularly involved in our rich political discourse(!), who are thoroughly pig sick of the continual agitation of rabble rousing for further constitutional upheaval, all for Mammy Sturgeon to bolster and underpin her shaky position. She has marched the troops up the hill perhaps once too often, and now she is desperately throwing ideas around to keep herself relevant. The result of these continued machinations and agitations will be an increased rejection from businesses to invest in Scotland, and a desire from moderates to move away from Scotland.
Why would anyone hang around with the looming threat of an illegal and unauthorised referendum, that will largely be ignored by normal people, but used by the face painted lunatics as justification for a UDI or something equally catastrophic. The day after the vote, when the result of 95% yes with a turnout of 30% is returned, the loonies would be shouting for the SNP to immediately form the Independent Scottish Republic, and when it becomes apparent that such an act is completely outwith their competency or legal authority, then the repercussions would start. Anyone considered 'English' would be targeted as an enemy. The Westminster government would likely have to step in to curtail further unpleasantness and prevent a full blown Catalonia situation. We would be lined up nicely for a spot of civil dispute and face painted loonies on the streets. This is going to end badly if the SNP are allowed to pursue their illegal referendum.
Why would anyone hang around with the looming threat of an illegal and unauthorised referendum, that will largely be ignored by normal people, but used by the face painted lunatics as justification for a UDI or something equally catastrophic. The day after the vote, when the result of 95% yes with a turnout of 30% is returned, the loonies would be shouting for the SNP to immediately form the Independent Scottish Republic, and when it becomes apparent that such an act is completely outwith their competency or legal authority, then the repercussions would start. Anyone considered 'English' would be targeted as an enemy. The Westminster government would likely have to step in to curtail further unpleasantness and prevent a full blown Catalonia situation. We would be lined up nicely for a spot of civil dispute and face painted loonies on the streets. This is going to end badly if the SNP are allowed to pursue their illegal referendum.
If the Supreme Court rule in favour of the Scottish Government then it will be regular referendums until they get the 'right' answer.
If the Supreme Court rule against the Scottish Government then all eyes will be on the General Election result. However if independence supporting parties get more than 50% of the vote then the Scottish Government still have no legal power to force the UK Government to do act as the constitution is reserved to Westminster.
The question in my mind is that if the decision by the Supreme Court, when combined with the continued refusal to act if independence supporting parties gain more than 50% of the vote in the General Election, will this intransigence result in soft No voters changing their mind and galvanise the resolve of soft yes voters? The hard core vote on both sides of the debate will not change.
If the Supreme Court rule against the Scottish Government then all eyes will be on the General Election result. However if independence supporting parties get more than 50% of the vote then the Scottish Government still have no legal power to force the UK Government to do act as the constitution is reserved to Westminster.
The question in my mind is that if the decision by the Supreme Court, when combined with the continued refusal to act if independence supporting parties gain more than 50% of the vote in the General Election, will this intransigence result in soft No voters changing their mind and galvanise the resolve of soft yes voters? The hard core vote on both sides of the debate will not change.
Ecosseven said:
If the Supreme Court rule in favour of the Scottish Government then it will be regular referendums until they get the 'right' answer.
If the Supreme Court rule against the Scottish Government then all eyes will be on the General Election result. However if independence supporting parties get more than 50% of the vote then the Scottish Government still have no legal power to force the UK Government to do act as the constitution is reserved to Westminster.
The question in my mind is that if the decision by the Supreme Court, when combined with the continued refusal to act if independence supporting parties gain more than 50% of the vote in the General Election, will this intransigence result in soft No voters changing their mind and galvanise the resolve of soft yes voters? The hard core vote on both sides of the debate will not change.
yes, this is why the Supreme Court is not a bad tactic. If Indyref 2 is legal, all well and good. If the Court denies legal status, then Scotland is seen as not being in a partnership of equals, but rather in a prison at the whim of Johnson. This will galvanise the Yes vote.If the Supreme Court rule against the Scottish Government then all eyes will be on the General Election result. However if independence supporting parties get more than 50% of the vote then the Scottish Government still have no legal power to force the UK Government to do act as the constitution is reserved to Westminster.
The question in my mind is that if the decision by the Supreme Court, when combined with the continued refusal to act if independence supporting parties gain more than 50% of the vote in the General Election, will this intransigence result in soft No voters changing their mind and galvanise the resolve of soft yes voters? The hard core vote on both sides of the debate will not change.
deadslow said:
yes, this is why the Supreme Court is not a bad tactic. If Indyref 2 is legal, all well and good. If the Court denies legal status, then Scotland is seen as not being in a partnership of equals, but rather in a prison at the whim of Johnson. This will galvanise the Yes vote.
It'll galvanise the face painted fruitcakes who wave their flags and shout for 'freeedumm' without understanding the implications of what they are campaigning for. Worse still, it'll galvanise those who do understand the implications and don't care, because "English Toareee bastirts..." The Supreme Court UK said:
The Scotland Act 1998 (‘the 1998 Act’) created a right of review for the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council in relation to ‘devolution issues’. This jurisdiction was transferred to the Supreme Court upon the court’s creation in 2009. ‘Devolution issues’ may arise in civil or criminal cases, though some of what were previously devolution issues in criminal cases have now become compatibility issues under the 2012 Act. The list of devolution issues in paragraph 1 of Schedule 6 to the 1998 Act includes the following:
(i) a question whether an Act of the Scottish Parliament (‘ASP’) or a provision of an ASP is within the legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament.
An ASP or a provision of an ASP will be outside that competence, and therefore not law, so far as it relates, among other things, to matters reserved for the UK Parliament, or where it is incompatible with any Convention right or with EU law.
Seems clear enough. What are reserved matters?(i) a question whether an Act of the Scottish Parliament (‘ASP’) or a provision of an ASP is within the legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament.
An ASP or a provision of an ASP will be outside that competence, and therefore not law, so far as it relates, among other things, to matters reserved for the UK Parliament, or where it is incompatible with any Convention right or with EU law.
Scotland Act 1998 Schedule 5 Paragraph 1 said:
The following aspects of the constitution are reserved matters, that is—
(a)the Crown, including succession to the Crown and a regency,
(b)the Union of the Kingdoms of Scotland and England,
(c)the Parliament of the United Kingdom,
(d)the continued existence of the High Court of Justiciary as a criminal court of first instance and of appeal,
(e)the continued existence of the Court of Session as a civil court of first instance and of appeal.
Well that seems clear as well. It would be interesting to see what the SNP are proposing to hang their case on, aside from "let's test the competency..."(a)the Crown, including succession to the Crown and a regency,
(b)the Union of the Kingdoms of Scotland and England,
(c)the Parliament of the United Kingdom,
(d)the continued existence of the High Court of Justiciary as a criminal court of first instance and of appeal,
(e)the continued existence of the Court of Session as a civil court of first instance and of appeal.
Let's save ourselves a few years and a few million quid wasted chasing this particular can kicking exercise. Anyone with functioning eyeballs can see this is a prime example of an SNP diversion and distraction tactic - keep the constitution in the news, and avoid the media scrutinising their dreadful record in government.
On the other hand making the next general election a pretendyref may backfire. Last time Chief Mammy said someone who didn't want indy should still vote SNP for their other policies. Can't do that now.
Will that drop a few % off the SNP vote? I think so. Voting SNP is no longer just an anti Boris protest. You are voting for a border at Gretna and to be poorer.
Will that drop a few % off the SNP vote? I think so. Voting SNP is no longer just an anti Boris protest. You are voting for a border at Gretna and to be poorer.
Edited by irc on Wednesday 29th June 16:05
irc said:
On the other hand making the next general election a pretendyref may backfire. Last time Chief Mammy said someone who didn't want indy should still vote SNP for their other policies. Can't do that now.
Will that drop a few % off the SNP vote? I think so. Voting SNP is no longer just an anti Boris protect. You are voting for a border at Grenta and to be poorer.
I have a pal who has voted SNP consistently for the last decade or so, because he considers them to be progressive and socially responsible, and acting in the best interests of Scotland. He's the very definition of a middle moderate, broadly left leaning but not necessarily in favour of independence, but has lent his vote to the SNP as they are a 'Scottish' party. If Sturgeon blatantly made the next election a vote for independence, I think she may find that a broad sweep of middle moderate Scotland would desert her in droves. The face painted loonball Alba types probably don't trust her any more, she will be left with the fanatical cult followers for whom she can do no wrong. Maybe 30% of the electorate? It's a risky strategy - if the pro-Union parties can work out their differences, they could put this nonsense to bed for good by eradicating the SNP.Will that drop a few % off the SNP vote? I think so. Voting SNP is no longer just an anti Boris protect. You are voting for a border at Grenta and to be poorer.
Apparently English incomers moving to the more sparsely populated parts of Scotland is a form of genocide. Open friendly Scotland! They don't even try and learn the native language - Scots.
"Ongoing population change clearly serves to alter the balance of indigenous peoples and their national cultures and identities, more especially when immigrants do not make an effort, or are not required to properly integrate into a community, such as learning the indigenous (Scots) language; in this instance the immigrant group is also imposing its culture and language (and hence its identity) on the indigenous community, which demonstrates a colonial reality. Communities may be fundamentally altered and indigenous peoples uprooted, eventually becoming a marginalised minority, as has now occurred in many of Scotland’s rural areas, islands, towns and in certain urban areas as well. Large scale uncontrolled migration from a much larger populated country into a smaller neighbouring country coupled with long-established Cultural/Linguistic Imperialism and Colonial domination policies runs the risk of totally altering and ultimately subsuming and even entirely removing the smaller nation and its main indigenous ethnic group. (Such an outcome may even perhaps be defined as a form of genocide,"
https://yoursforscotlandcom.wordpress.com/2021/07/...
"Ongoing population change clearly serves to alter the balance of indigenous peoples and their national cultures and identities, more especially when immigrants do not make an effort, or are not required to properly integrate into a community, such as learning the indigenous (Scots) language; in this instance the immigrant group is also imposing its culture and language (and hence its identity) on the indigenous community, which demonstrates a colonial reality. Communities may be fundamentally altered and indigenous peoples uprooted, eventually becoming a marginalised minority, as has now occurred in many of Scotland’s rural areas, islands, towns and in certain urban areas as well. Large scale uncontrolled migration from a much larger populated country into a smaller neighbouring country coupled with long-established Cultural/Linguistic Imperialism and Colonial domination policies runs the risk of totally altering and ultimately subsuming and even entirely removing the smaller nation and its main indigenous ethnic group. (Such an outcome may even perhaps be defined as a form of genocide,"
https://yoursforscotlandcom.wordpress.com/2021/07/...
As far as I can see, the problem in Scotland (which is the same problem here in Wales) is that the opposition parties are useless and completely fail to hold the government to account. I can't see the SNP (or Labour in Wales) losing their grip until this changes.
So please step up to the plate opposition parties!
So please step up to the plate opposition parties!
irc said:
Apparently English incomers moving to the more sparsely populated parts of Scotland is a form of genocide. Open friendly Scotland! They don't even try and learn the native language - Scots.
"Ongoing population change clearly serves to alter the balance of indigenous peoples and their national cultures and identities, more especially when immigrants do not make an effort, or are not required to properly integrate into a community, such as learning the indigenous (Scots) language; in this instance the immigrant group is also imposing its culture and language (and hence its identity) on the indigenous community, which demonstrates a colonial reality. Communities may be fundamentally altered and indigenous peoples uprooted, eventually becoming a marginalised minority, as has now occurred in many of Scotland’s rural areas, islands, towns and in certain urban areas as well. Large scale uncontrolled migration from a much larger populated country into a smaller neighbouring country coupled with long-established Cultural/Linguistic Imperialism and Colonial domination policies runs the risk of totally altering and ultimately subsuming and even entirely removing the smaller nation and its main indigenous ethnic group. (Such an outcome may even perhaps be defined as a form of genocide,"
https://yoursforscotlandcom.wordpress.com/2021/07/...
That's a completely unhinged article, full of incredible assumptions and assertions. It also highlights the unspoken truth that Scotland is an open, welcoming, diverse society - unless you happen to be English, in which case you are a "white settler, an invader, an oppressor, privileged...""Ongoing population change clearly serves to alter the balance of indigenous peoples and their national cultures and identities, more especially when immigrants do not make an effort, or are not required to properly integrate into a community, such as learning the indigenous (Scots) language; in this instance the immigrant group is also imposing its culture and language (and hence its identity) on the indigenous community, which demonstrates a colonial reality. Communities may be fundamentally altered and indigenous peoples uprooted, eventually becoming a marginalised minority, as has now occurred in many of Scotland’s rural areas, islands, towns and in certain urban areas as well. Large scale uncontrolled migration from a much larger populated country into a smaller neighbouring country coupled with long-established Cultural/Linguistic Imperialism and Colonial domination policies runs the risk of totally altering and ultimately subsuming and even entirely removing the smaller nation and its main indigenous ethnic group. (Such an outcome may even perhaps be defined as a form of genocide,"
https://yoursforscotlandcom.wordpress.com/2021/07/...
It's funny how the SNP and their supporters can often be found holding 'refugees welcome' placards at various demonstrations. The paragraph quoted above could easily be rewritten by swapping out a few words to apply to cross channel migrants, and it would immediately be denounced as xenophobic right wing bigotry - but when applied to the English, it's fair game.
Edited by Roderick Spode on Wednesday 29th June 16:45
Ian974 said:
It really is a bit odd that rejoining the EU is such a big deal when they were happy enough to bin it off with the rest of the UK in 2014
And voted down Theresa May’s deal and repeatedly voted for the hardest possible Brexit. It’ll cease to be a good idea when it’s made crystal clear exactly what level of austerity would be required to rejoin. In saying that, that still might not be enough to stop it.Roderick Spode said:
irc said:
Apparently English incomers moving to the more sparsely populated parts of Scotland is a form of genocide. Open friendly Scotland! They don't even try and learn the native language - Scots.
"Ongoing population change clearly serves to alter the balance of indigenous peoples and their national cultures and identities, more especially when immigrants do not make an effort, or are not required to properly integrate into a community, such as learning the indigenous (Scots) language; in this instance the immigrant group is also imposing its culture and language (and hence its identity) on the indigenous community, which demonstrates a colonial reality. Communities may be fundamentally altered and indigenous peoples uprooted, eventually becoming a marginalised minority, as has now occurred in many of Scotland’s rural areas, islands, towns and in certain urban areas as well. Large scale uncontrolled migration from a much larger populated country into a smaller neighbouring country coupled with long-established Cultural/Linguistic Imperialism and Colonial domination policies runs the risk of totally altering and ultimately subsuming and even entirely removing the smaller nation and its main indigenous ethnic group. (Such an outcome may even perhaps be defined as a form of genocide,"
https://yoursforscotlandcom.wordpress.com/2021/07/...
That's a completely unhinged article, full of incredible assumptions and assertions. It also highlights the unspoken truth that Scotland is an open, welcoming, diverse society - unless you happen to be English, in which case you are a "white settler, an invader, an oppressor, privileged...""Ongoing population change clearly serves to alter the balance of indigenous peoples and their national cultures and identities, more especially when immigrants do not make an effort, or are not required to properly integrate into a community, such as learning the indigenous (Scots) language; in this instance the immigrant group is also imposing its culture and language (and hence its identity) on the indigenous community, which demonstrates a colonial reality. Communities may be fundamentally altered and indigenous peoples uprooted, eventually becoming a marginalised minority, as has now occurred in many of Scotland’s rural areas, islands, towns and in certain urban areas as well. Large scale uncontrolled migration from a much larger populated country into a smaller neighbouring country coupled with long-established Cultural/Linguistic Imperialism and Colonial domination policies runs the risk of totally altering and ultimately subsuming and even entirely removing the smaller nation and its main indigenous ethnic group. (Such an outcome may even perhaps be defined as a form of genocide,"
https://yoursforscotlandcom.wordpress.com/2021/07/...
whilst all this has gotten a lot of media coverage, there is still very little of substance actually happened.
Week 1- huge fanfare, lots of information to come, roadmaps, papers to be released, blah blah blah: they released 1 document with useless comparisons and said scotland should be great.
Week 2- We’ve announced the date!!!! Indy ref 2 is on!!!! * huge caveat, that we’re actually only just checking if this is legal, and if it’s not, then we’ll kick the can to the next general election. and if it is legal, then we’ve still to actually put the motion to our own parliament to actually put things in motion.
I’m still waiting on the substance, the maths, the working, the assumptions, because so far we’ve got a lot of media coverage without much else. If it were me organising all this, I’d have quietly gone about my business in the background and saved the fanfare for when I at least knew the answer to this is a goer. Which makes me think it’s all for the headlines, to keep the wolves at bay for another couple of years with the- but i tried!
Week 1- huge fanfare, lots of information to come, roadmaps, papers to be released, blah blah blah: they released 1 document with useless comparisons and said scotland should be great.
Week 2- We’ve announced the date!!!! Indy ref 2 is on!!!! * huge caveat, that we’re actually only just checking if this is legal, and if it’s not, then we’ll kick the can to the next general election. and if it is legal, then we’ve still to actually put the motion to our own parliament to actually put things in motion.
I’m still waiting on the substance, the maths, the working, the assumptions, because so far we’ve got a lot of media coverage without much else. If it were me organising all this, I’d have quietly gone about my business in the background and saved the fanfare for when I at least knew the answer to this is a goer. Which makes me think it’s all for the headlines, to keep the wolves at bay for another couple of years with the- but i tried!
malks222 said:
I’m still waiting on the substance, the maths, the working, the assumptions, because so far we’ve got a lot of media coverage without much else. If it were me organising all this, I’d have quietly gone about my business in the background and saved the fanfare for when I at least knew the answer to this is a goer. Which makes me think it’s all for the headlines, to keep the wolves at bay for another couple of years with the- but i tried!
All it is a distraction to take focus away on what a cr@p job she and her cronies are doing.
This is a never ending issue.
If you don’t give them another referendum it’s because we are tyrannical and…English! If they get it and don’t win they will try again Again and again until they get the result they want. When they get it and realise an independent Scotland may not be an improvement on the current state of affairs they will still blame the English.
Then they will join the eu to be a vassal state and when all is not roses they will still blame the English.
I am not English but the morning we get from some Scottish it’s just enough. They want independence? Fine just get it but don’t think it’s a matter of having the cake and eat it.
Like Brexit there are pros and cons and they need to accept the cons instead of moaning after the vote.
If you don’t give them another referendum it’s because we are tyrannical and…English! If they get it and don’t win they will try again Again and again until they get the result they want. When they get it and realise an independent Scotland may not be an improvement on the current state of affairs they will still blame the English.
Then they will join the eu to be a vassal state and when all is not roses they will still blame the English.
I am not English but the morning we get from some Scottish it’s just enough. They want independence? Fine just get it but don’t think it’s a matter of having the cake and eat it.
Like Brexit there are pros and cons and they need to accept the cons instead of moaning after the vote.
It's bulls
t grievance mongering, it's never been anything else; they have no plan and don't care that iScotland would be broke and beggared in about 5 minutes. Chief Mammy and acolytes were on the news telling lies about how 'we' have been wrenched from the beloved EU against 'our' will, conveniently forgetting that in 2014 leaving the EU is exactly what they were campaigning for.
t grievance mongering, it's never been anything else; they have no plan and don't care that iScotland would be broke and beggared in about 5 minutes. Chief Mammy and acolytes were on the news telling lies about how 'we' have been wrenched from the beloved EU against 'our' will, conveniently forgetting that in 2014 leaving the EU is exactly what they were campaigning for.Evercross said:
Roderick Spode said:
irc said:
Apparently English incomers moving to the more sparsely populated parts of Scotland is a form of genocide. Open friendly Scotland! They don't even try and learn the native language - Scots.
"Ongoing population change clearly serves to alter the balance of indigenous peoples and their national cultures and identities, more especially when immigrants do not make an effort, or are not required to properly integrate into a community, such as learning the indigenous (Scots) language; in this instance the immigrant group is also imposing its culture and language (and hence its identity) on the indigenous community, which demonstrates a colonial reality. Communities may be fundamentally altered and indigenous peoples uprooted, eventually becoming a marginalised minority, as has now occurred in many of Scotland’s rural areas, islands, towns and in certain urban areas as well. Large scale uncontrolled migration from a much larger populated country into a smaller neighbouring country coupled with long-established Cultural/Linguistic Imperialism and Colonial domination policies runs the risk of totally altering and ultimately subsuming and even entirely removing the smaller nation and its main indigenous ethnic group. (Such an outcome may even perhaps be defined as a form of genocide,"
https://yoursforscotlandcom.wordpress.com/2021/07/...
That's a completely unhinged article, full of incredible assumptions and assertions. It also highlights the unspoken truth that Scotland is an open, welcoming, diverse society - unless you happen to be English, in which case you are a "white settler, an invader, an oppressor, privileged...""Ongoing population change clearly serves to alter the balance of indigenous peoples and their national cultures and identities, more especially when immigrants do not make an effort, or are not required to properly integrate into a community, such as learning the indigenous (Scots) language; in this instance the immigrant group is also imposing its culture and language (and hence its identity) on the indigenous community, which demonstrates a colonial reality. Communities may be fundamentally altered and indigenous peoples uprooted, eventually becoming a marginalised minority, as has now occurred in many of Scotland’s rural areas, islands, towns and in certain urban areas as well. Large scale uncontrolled migration from a much larger populated country into a smaller neighbouring country coupled with long-established Cultural/Linguistic Imperialism and Colonial domination policies runs the risk of totally altering and ultimately subsuming and even entirely removing the smaller nation and its main indigenous ethnic group. (Such an outcome may even perhaps be defined as a form of genocide,"
https://yoursforscotlandcom.wordpress.com/2021/07/...
Edited by biggbn on Wednesday 29th June 21:12
biggbn said:
Dreadful article and one that does not describe the country, or people I know. Its sad that such a minority, because that is what I believe they are; I have lived and worked in Scotland all my life, have a diverse group of friends and colleagues and do not recognise this 'anti immigrant' rhetoric. Of course I have seen racism, usually practiced by drunken idiots who would not utter a word at another as they stumble from pubs and clubs at 3am, again, a minority of clowns. I have said this before, some have disagreed and some agreed, but I will not stop posting a counterpoint. Come to the country I know and you will be welcome, we're a Jock Tamson's bairns at the end of the day. I am heartily sick of the many and different ways divisiveness is preached north and south of the border, indeed, across the world. Differences should be embraced and celebrated not feared and persecuted. Come on into my world, its how I and those I know live, and its lovely
Yet you have on numerous occasions said you admire some of the qualities of Sturgeon and Rayner, two characters who's entire careers are built on their embracing, promoting and celebrating divisiveness in a particularly disgusting manner.Edited by biggbn on Wednesday 29th June 21:12
Your bestowing platitudes and praise, however faint or glorious, upon those two is the very opposite of the heartfelt words you have just written.
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