Brexit - was it worth it? (Vol. 3)

[Jenny Tailor]

skwdenyer said:

In another win for Brexit:

At least two sides to every story.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cambridgeshi...

From this - it is the EU that is stting in the bed.

"Unfortunately the EU have broken the agreement we have negotiated with them as part of the trade continuity agreement - the Brexit agreement - that we would be members of the Horizon, Copernicus and Euratom, the big three European science programmes... and unfortunately we have been blocked [from joining].
"If the EU [does] not want us to join, then from September, I will be rolling out a £15bn global UK science programme."

"I'd rather remain in Horizon. We all would. But unfortunately it is the EU which has decided that they want to punish us and I can't allow UK science to be punished in that way.

"We have about 200 European Research Council (ERC) fellowships in the UK and that's why I am preparing to launch a UK fellowship programme to replace the ERC which shouldn't be making scientists pay the price of European policy.

"We've been the good guys. I'm not prepared to sit back and see our top researchers poached.
"I am confident over the next two or three years we will roll out a very powerful programme of science and the EU will suffer, not us."

[glazbagun]

Vanden Saab said:

Which places can we trade with less easily now?

The EU.

My employers opened a new centre over there, employed a load of Europeans to do our work and shipped of >50% of our stock abroad to save on the admin & duty costs Brexit brought. The UK is seen as a mature market and the EU a growth one by the company and the benefits of that growth will be reaped in the EU that previously would have been in the UK.

[Welshbeef]

glazbagun said:

The EU.

My employers opened a new centre over there, employed a load of Europeans to do our work and shipped of >50% of our stock abroad to save on the admin & duty costs Brexit brought. The UK is seen as a mature market and the EU a growth one by the company and the benefits of that growth will be reaped in the EU that previously would have been in the UK.

That’s an interesting view as the EU globally is seen as a declining market

[glazbagun]

Welshbeef said:

glazbagun said:

The EU.

My employers opened a new centre over there, employed a load of Europeans to do our work and shipped of >50% of our stock abroad to save on the admin & duty costs Brexit brought. The UK is seen as a mature market and the EU a growth one by the company and the benefits of that growth will be reaped in the EU that previously would have been in the UK.

That’s an interesting view as the EU globally is seen as a declining market

Just my company & their money/expansion plans. It may be declining, but it's still huge. If a market is big enough we'll open a new centre there if the barriers and volume make it the more profitable option. Before Brexit we would have been the EU hub, now we're still the global HQ, but the vast bulk of work for the EU market will be carried out within the EU.

[Sway]

glazbagun said:

Vanden Saab said:

Which places can we trade with less easily now?

The EU.

My employers opened a new centre over there, employed a load of Europeans to do our work and shipped of >50% of our stock abroad to save on the admin & duty costs Brexit brought. The UK is seen as a mature market and the EU a growth one by the company and the benefits of that growth will be reaped in the EU that previously would have been in the UK.

Why would there be duties on British made goods?

'Admin costs' are tiny. I've mentioned repeatedly how much global trade (inbound and outbound) we manage with a tiny overhead...

[glazbagun]

Jenny Tailor said:

At least two sides to every story.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cambridgeshi...

From this - it is the EU that is stting in the bed.

"Unfortunately the EU have broken the agreement we have negotiated with them as part of the trade continuity agreement - the Brexit agreement - that we would be members of the Horizon, Copernicus and Euratom, the big three European science programmes... and unfortunately we have been blocked [from joining].
"If the EU [does] not want us to join, then from September, I will be rolling out a £15bn global UK science programme."

"I'd rather remain in Horizon. We all would. But unfortunately it is the EU which has decided that they want to punish us and I can't allow UK science to be punished in that way.

"We have about 200 European Research Council (ERC) fellowships in the UK and that's why I am preparing to launch a UK fellowship programme to replace the ERC which shouldn't be making scientists pay the price of European policy.

"We've been the good guys. I'm not prepared to sit back and see our top researchers poached.
"I am confident over the next two or three years we will roll out a very powerful programme of science and the EU will suffer, not us."

The thread is "Brexit - was it worth it?". Acrimony, duplication of effort and reduced funding are not benefits regardless of who you point the finger at.

[Crackie]

Kermit power said:

The Leave campaign promised an vast panoply of wonderous benefits that would be showered upon us as soon as we left.

I'm not sure why but it does appear as if some remainers believed that the politicians, from both sides of the debate, were telling the truth.

[glazbagun]

Sway said:

glazbagun said:

Vanden Saab said:

Which places can we trade with less easily now?

The EU.

My employers opened a new centre over there, employed a load of Europeans to do our work and shipped of >50% of our stock abroad to save on the admin & duty costs Brexit brought. The UK is seen as a mature market and the EU a growth one by the company and the benefits of that growth will be reaped in the EU that previously would have been in the UK.

Why would there be duties on British made goods?

'Admin costs' are tiny. I've mentioned repeatedly how much global trade (inbound and outbound) we manage with a tiny overhead...

Apologies, I should have said VAT not duty. We're not a manufacturer, we trade used items and supply a warranty (my job) meaning stock sourced in the the EU but sold here will now have VAT added to the full price on import and vice-versa as I understand it.

Edited by glazbagun on Saturday 25th June 10:46

[sunbeam alpine]

Sway said:

glazbagun said:

Vanden Saab said:

Which places can we trade with less easily now?

The EU.

My employers opened a new centre over there, employed a load of Europeans to do our work and shipped of >50% of our stock abroad to save on the admin & duty costs Brexit brought. The UK is seen as a mature market and the EU a growth one by the company and the benefits of that growth will be reaped in the EU that previously would have been in the UK.

Why would there be duties on British made goods?

'Admin costs' are tiny. I've mentioned repeatedly how much global trade (inbound and outbound) we manage with a tiny overhead...

Earlier in the thread I guestimated that we'd had about €10.000 in additional costs.

Last Monday I had our annual meeting with our accountants to sign off on our accounts for 2021.

We paid nearly €18.000 in additional costs - Customs agents charges and related costs. The biggest costs for us occur when Customs pick out one of our (transport company's) trailers for additional checks, and we seem IMO to have quite a high level of checks.

If that happens we get extra charges for the time the trailer is stuck in the port (24 hours is not unusual), plus a charge for the Customs Agent to attend the check (we're not allowed to do that ourselves). It's not unusual for the Agent to turn up for a check scheduled for 9 a.m. only to find that it's been rescheduled or running late. A trailer held up in this way costs us between €500-750.

We swapped from using Dover-Calais (with tractor unit and trailer) to Hull-Zeebrugge (trailer only) to try and avoid costs of having the whole combination held up. The PITA is that the transport company has to send one of their drivers to collect the trailer, deliver it to customs, wait while it is inspected, then deliver it on to us.

[Riff Raff]

glazbagun said:

Jenny Tailor said:

At least two sides to every story.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cambridgeshi...

From this - it is the EU that is stting in the bed.

"Unfortunately the EU have broken the agreement we have negotiated with them as part of the trade continuity agreement - the Brexit agreement - that we would be members of the Horizon, Copernicus and Euratom, the big three European science programmes... and unfortunately we have been blocked [from joining].
"If the EU [does] not want us to join, then from September, I will be rolling out a £15bn global UK science programme."

"I'd rather remain in Horizon. We all would. But unfortunately it is the EU which has decided that they want to punish us and I can't allow UK science to be punished in that way.

"We have about 200 European Research Council (ERC) fellowships in the UK and that's why I am preparing to launch a UK fellowship programme to replace the ERC which shouldn't be making scientists pay the price of European policy.

"We've been the good guys. I'm not prepared to sit back and see our top researchers poached.
"I am confident over the next two or three years we will roll out a very powerful programme of science and the EU will suffer, not us."

The thread is "Brexit - was it worth it?". Acrimony, duplication of effort and reduced funding are not benefits regardless of who you point the finger at.

Who’d have thought that playing silly buggers with the NIP would have consequences?

[Sway]

glazbagun said:

Sway said:

glazbagun said:

Vanden Saab said:

Which places can we trade with less easily now?

The EU.

My employers opened a new centre over there, employed a load of Europeans to do our work and shipped of >50% of our stock abroad to save on the admin & duty costs Brexit brought. The UK is seen as a mature market and the EU a growth one by the company and the benefits of that growth will be reaped in the EU that previously would have been in the UK.

Why would there be duties on British made goods?

'Admin costs' are tiny. I've mentioned repeatedly how much global trade (inbound and outbound) we manage with a tiny overhead...

Apologies, I should have said VAT not duty. We're not a manufacturer, we trade used items and supply a warranty (my job) meaning stock sourced in the the EU but sold here will now have VAT added to the full price on import and vice-versa as I understand it.

Edited by glazbagun on Saturday 25th June 10:46

That change happened irrespective of brexit. It's the case within the EU now too.

[sunbeam alpine]

glazbagun said:

Vanden Saab said:

Which places can we trade with less easily now?

The EU.

My employers opened a new centre over there, employed a load of Europeans to do our work and shipped of >50% of our stock abroad to save on the admin & duty costs Brexit brought. The UK is seen as a mature market and the EU a growth one by the company and the benefits of that growth will be reaped in the EU that previously would have been in the UK.

I used to have a nice little sideline in sourcing agricultural machinery and parts (both second hand and new) in the UK for sale in Europe. My USP was that I could usually get hold of things a lot quicker than alternative suppliers, I could find spares that others couldn't, and I had transport coming over nearly every week anyway.

The changes in the customs regime have meant that combining loads is much more difficult, plus my "speed advantage" is gone. In theory it's still possible to get stuff over quickly, but you can't rely on it.

[Sway]

sunbeam alpine said:

In theory it's still possible to get stuff over quickly, but you can't rely on it.

I can...

We've had a fun one 'recently'. A rather large, incredibly expensive bit of kit that was diverted en route to Russia into Denmark, held there for a while whilst we figured out what we were going to do, before shipping to a customer in Germany.

I'm told that certain individuals at border posts had kittens when they saw the chain of 'paperwork' - and it's one of the very few deliveries in Europe we've ever had where they've come and done an on site clearance inspection as we were unpacking it.

I have 'lost' a 40' workshop/commissioning kit container in Russia though. Entered under TIL, there's zero chance we're ever getting that back - I'm waiting for them to try and send us a sneaky import duty bill once we breach the terms of the TIL. Anyone know what foxtrot Oscar is translated into Russian?

[Mrr T]

Welshbeef said:

glazbagun said:

The EU.

My employers opened a new centre over there, employed a load of Europeans to do our work and shipped of >50% of our stock abroad to save on the admin & duty costs Brexit brought. The UK is seen as a mature market and the EU a growth one by the company and the benefits of that growth will be reaped in the EU that previously would have been in the UK.

That’s an interesting view as the EU globally is seen as a declining market

Who's sees it as a declining market?

It maybe growing less quickly than some 2nd and 3rd world economics, however, if for example you are a car manufacturer and you are launching a new model would you launch it first in the EU or in a 2nd or 3rd world economy.

[glazbagun]

Sway said:

That change happened irrespective of brexit. It's the case within the EU now too.

I didn't know that. So if a Frenchman buys, say, a used watch from Germany it has French VAT added to the full price?

Edited by glazbagun on Saturday 25th June 11:55

[Sway]

glazbagun said:

Sway said:

That change happened irrespective of brexit. It's the case within the EU now too.

I didn't know that. So if a Frenchman buys, say, a used watch from Germany it has French VAT added to the full price?

Edited by glazbagun on Saturday 25th June 11:55

Yep, essentially the rules which allowed you to charge 'seller's nation VAT' instead of 'customer's nation VAT' were removed, along with low value thresholds, etc.

Was quite a comprehensive change - driven essentially by two things. One was large distribution hubs located in a lower rate EU nation, the other was the Chinese sellers such as Wish, etc. that bluntly were acting highly fraudulently.

Other elements of the changes meant that online 'marketplaces' became responsible for managing VAT too on behalf of their sellers - so eBay, Amazon, et al.

In the scenario of the 'German watch', then you're not paying German VAT, but you are paying French VAT.

Similar for a UK sale to France. Only differences there are the mechanisms for doing so.

[sunbeam alpine]

Sway said:

glazbagun said:

Sway said:

That change happened irrespective of brexit. It's the case within the EU now too.

I didn't know that. So if a Frenchman buys, say, a used watch from Germany it has French VAT added to the full price?

Edited by glazbagun on Saturday 25th June 11:55

Yep, essentially the rules which allowed you to charge 'seller's nation VAT' instead of 'customer's nation VAT' were removed, along with low value thresholds, etc.

Was quite a comprehensive change - driven essentially by two things. One was large distribution hubs located in a lower rate EU nation, the other was the Chinese sellers such as Wish, etc. that bluntly were acting highly fraudulently.

Other elements of the changes meant that online 'marketplaces' became responsible for managing VAT too on behalf of their sellers - so eBay, Amazon, et al.

In the scenario of the 'German watch', then you're not paying German VAT, but you are paying French VAT.

Similar for a UK sale to France. Only differences there are the mechanisms for doing so.

Sway is correct, but what he has forgotten is the "administration charges" now levied by the courier companies and the post service. This varies from €15-25 per delivery.

The new system places the onus on the delivery companies to make sure that the VAT is collected and paid, and they are charging for this. If what Sway says regarding how simple this is and how few personnel are needed, they coumd be earning just as mush - or more - from this than from the delivery service.

[Sway]

sunbeam alpine said:

Sway is correct, but what he has forgotten is the "administration charges" now levied by the courier companies and the post service. This varies from €15-25 per delivery.

The new system places the onus on the delivery companies to make sure that the VAT is collected and paid, and they are charging for this. If what Sway says regarding how simple this is and how few personnel are needed, they coumd be earning just as mush - or more - from this than from the delivery service.

They are. It's become a huge profiteering drive...

There really are opportunities for 'someone' to come along and completely demystify and ease this stuff for traders who have been selling across Europe but are ignorant of how customs declarations/VAT works across borders both due to Brexit and the VAT changes. Some of the things I hear both here and from continental European peeps are shocking in terms of what they're being told by 'professionals' that they really should be able to trust.

[heebeegeetee]

If Sway is correct, and essentially little has changed that can be attributed to Brexit, has Britain then got a very poor class of business owners, because there seems to be enough prepared to name themselves and list the problems they're having.

The Guardian: ‘What have we done?’: six years on, UK counts the cost of Brexit.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/jun/25/w...

[Sway]

heebeegeetee said:

If Sway is correct, and essentially little has changed that can be attributed to Brexit, has Britain then got a very poor class of business owners, because there seems to be enough prepared to name themselves and list the problems they're having.

The Guardian: ‘What have we done?’: six years on, UK counts the cost of Brexit.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/jun/25/w...

The ones citing issues with VAT, fertiliser/feed/fuel prices, etc?

The fine art selling chap I find amusing. His customers won't be paying UK VAT, but are 'unwilling' to pay their home nation's VAT on arrival? Wtf?

Things have changed because of brexit (and yes, there's a whole bunch of opportunities currently being missed) - but as is typical that article is full of 'reasons why my business is struggling' that have nothing to do with Brexit, or show a level of incompetence/ignorance in the business owner.