Brexit - was it worth it? (Vol. 3)

[Sway]

Seventy said:

Sway said:

We've introduced a new import tariff schedule that's significantly simpler and cheaper for importers. As a net importing nation, this is huge.

Tbh I’m not seeing this either.

I import from the EU and it’s significantly more expensive now.

I don't care if you're 'seeing it'. Considering that EU-UK trade is under FTA, you wouldn't bloody see it...

It's objective fact.

[Sway]

sunbeam alpine said:

Sway said:

We've introduced a new import tariff schedule that's significantly simpler and cheaper for importers. As a net importing nation, this is huge.

On top of that, despite tariff burdens being reduced on importers, as we're not sending 80% of the duties levied to Brussels the Exchequer actually has increased tariff income.

While I don't (have the knowledge to) disagree with you, do you really believe the average person in the street has experienced any tangible benefit so far?

Tbh (and I'm on record prior to the vote, let alone everything that's come since) - you/we are never going to 'see it'. It's borderline impossible to see it, even in normal times - which post brexit has been anything but on a global scale.

Everything is 'net', and even that net outcome on every single measure is subject to a thousand more factors than just 'are we in or out of the EU'.

So, I voted for principle based reasons (yes, the oft ridiculed 'sovereignty' rationale) - but there absolutely are actions that have occurred to provide a tangible benefit, as well as others that are negatives (such as the impact to resellers of goods from outside Europe - although even then as I've posted it's not a binary outcome).

Nothing is in macro economics/politics, even though people try to reduce it down so they can claim their choice was 'right' or 'wrong' - it was neither. It just was.

For the record, there's a tonne of opportunities I was hoping for that haven't materialised. I can point to the EU's actions for some of that, and incompetence in our politicians and especially civil service (who are supposed to herd those fking cats). But there's other things I didn't think would come about that have - such as the view on the world stage (of developed economies) regarding our actions surrounding Ukraine.

[Mandat]

Seventy said:

First post in here (I think!).

I voted for but I’m really struggling to see the benefits, in fact I’m struggling to see any at all!!

Feel like I was sold a pup.

Can someone point me in the right direction?
Any tangible benefit will do!

What were your reasons for voting Leave?

What were you hoping would happen, that hasn't happened yet?

[blueg33]

Sway said:

Seventy said:

TBH I’m not interested in what they can do, I’m interested in what they have done.

I’m seeing virtually nothing.

For the umpteenth time (and seriously, your post has been posted pretty much word for word by dozens of people 'just popping into the thread for the first time) - you want just one tangible, implemented benefit?

Ok.

We've introduced a new import tariff schedule that's significantly simpler and cheaper for importers. As a net importing nation, this is huge.

On top of that, despite tariff burdens being reduced on importers, as we're not sending 80% of the duties levied to Brussels the Exchequer actually has increased tariff income.

If we make things cheaper for importers surely that impacts any British producers of the same item, potentially making them less competitive

[Sway]

blueg33 said:

Sway said:

Seventy said:

TBH I’m not interested in what they can do, I’m interested in what they have done.

I’m seeing virtually nothing.

For the umpteenth time (and seriously, your post has been posted pretty much word for word by dozens of people 'just popping into the thread for the first time) - you want just one tangible, implemented benefit?

Ok.

We've introduced a new import tariff schedule that's significantly simpler and cheaper for importers. As a net importing nation, this is huge.

On top of that, despite tariff burdens being reduced on importers, as we're not sending 80% of the duties levied to Brussels the Exchequer actually has increased tariff income.

If we make things cheaper for importers surely that impacts any British producers of the same item, potentially making them less competitive

Which is why they rather sneakily only reduced the commodities which we don't have an indigenous industry for...

[andymadmak]

blueg33 said:

If we make things cheaper for importers surely that impacts any British producers of the same item, potentially making them less competitive

The idea is that we choose what we make cheaper…

[andymadmak]

sunbeam alpine said:

Do you not see any irony in claiming that part of the problem was the UK's own democratically-elected government?

Not really.

[sunbeam alpine]

Sway said:

Which is why they rather sneakily only reduced the commodities which we don't have an indigenous industry for...

I rather suspect that UK farmers would strongly disagree with you on that.

Can you put any kind of figure on the 80% of tarriffs no longer sent to the EU?

[Seventy]

Mandat said:

What were your reasons for voting Leave?

What were you hoping would happen, that hasn't happened yet?

350 million a week more for the NHS.

Not seeing that, either.

[Seventy]

Sway said:

I don't care if you're 'seeing it'. Considering that EU-UK trade is under FTA, you wouldn't bloody see it...

It's objective fact.

So why does it cost me more to import the same items from the same countries now?

Still not seeing it.

[Mortarboard]

And services not included in the FTA. Yet to hear a reason for that, especially with that being the UKs biggest "export"

M.

[Sway]

Mortarboard said:

And services not included in the FTA. Yet to hear a reason for that, especially with that being the UKs biggest "export"

M.

What's the duty rate on 'services'?

There's a reason it's not included in the FTA. It's got nothing to do with duties and everything to do with politics. As the Swiss recognise too.

[Sway]

sunbeam alpine said:

Sway said:

Which is why they rather sneakily only reduced the commodities which we don't have an indigenous industry for...

I rather suspect that UK farmers would strongly disagree with you on that.

Can you put any kind of figure on the 80% of tarriffs no longer sent to the EU?

Couple of billion: https://www.statista.com/statistics/284363/customs...

Farmers moan about everything. I know far too many

Complaining about a FTA is different to our inward tariff schedule - and complaining about a FTA with a nation with comparable production requirements, half a planet to travel (and therefore frozen, not fresh so automatically poorer quality), etc. is a little rich...

They really should have been moaning about the fresh, massively cheaper to produce due to lower rearing standards/wages/etc., EU produce they've had to compete against for decades. Aussie beef should be a piece of piss for them to out compete.

Nothing reduced on UK produced agri-goods from a MFA schedule perspective.

[Mortarboard]

Sway said:

Mortarboard said:

And services not included in the FTA. Yet to hear a reason for that, especially with that being the UKs biggest "export"

M.

What's the duty rate on 'services'?

There's a reason it's not included in the FTA. It's got nothing to do with duties and everything to do with politics. As the Swiss recognise too.

Go on, tell the class why you used the term "duties" instead of "levies"
If not agreed as zero in the FTA it's fully at risk of levies.

M.

[turbobloke]

TCA? The TCA covers a number of areas including services, digital trade, intellectual property etc. In particular the TCA contains a number of provisions which are relevant to financial services. See pages 121-125 according to McCann Fitzgerald.

[Sway]

Mortarboard said:

Sway said:

Mortarboard said:

And services not included in the FTA. Yet to hear a reason for that, especially with that being the UKs biggest "export"

M.

What's the duty rate on 'services'?

There's a reason it's not included in the FTA. It's got nothing to do with duties and everything to do with politics. As the Swiss recognise too.

Go on, tell the class why you used the term "duties" instead of "levies"
If not agreed as zero in the FTA it's fully at risk of levies.

M.

Why? Because levies apply to domestic as well as imported services... So of course they're not going to be covered by a FTA - and nor would retaining membership have avoided them...

[paul0843]

Lotobear said:

Seventy said:

TBH I’m not interested in what they can do, I’m interested in what they have done.

I’m seeing virtually nothing.

You won't as there hasn't been time yet (to determine either way whether it's been a good or a bad decision). Since it was actually 'done' we've had Covid, the ensuing economic st storm, now a war in Europe and added to that a Government who appear in any event reluctant to take the opportunities presented by it.

We won't know for years.

IMO Covid,and Ukraine war are covering up the disaster that is Brexit.
As government reluctant to take the opportunities presented by it ,please firstly let me know what they are and how you plan to bring them into play.

[Mortarboard]

Sway said:

Why? Because levies apply to domestic as well as imported services... So of course they're not going to be covered by a FTA - and nor would retaining membership have avoided them...

Well, that would be a really stupid thing to ignore during the negotiation then, would it not? Especially if HMG intends on "readjusting" parts of the "agreement" unilaterally.

Still, that's sovereignty for you. Nations get the government they deserve.

M.

[Sway]

Mortarboard said:

Sway said:

Why? Because levies apply to domestic as well as imported services... So of course they're not going to be covered by a FTA - and nor would retaining membership have avoided them...

Well, that would be a really stupid thing to ignore during the negotiation then, would it not? Especially if HMG intends on "readjusting" parts of the "agreement" unilaterally.

Still, that's sovereignty for you. Nations get the government they deserve.

M.

No, it's not.

Are you really suggesting that UKG should have attempted to get UK businesses to be exempt from any future levies that'd be applied to the EU's own businesses?

Come on chap. There are reasons to criticise the negotiations, but this is really, really scraping the barrel.

[Mortarboard]

Sway said:

Mortarboard said:

Sway said:

Why? Because levies apply to domestic as well as imported services... So of course they're not going to be covered by a FTA - and nor would retaining membership have avoided them...

Well, that would be a really stupid thing to ignore during the negotiation then, would it not? Especially if HMG intends on "readjusting" parts of the "agreement" unilaterally.

Still, that's sovereignty for you. Nations get the government they deserve.

M.

No, it's not.

Are you really suggesting that UKG should have attempted to get UK businesses to be exempt from any future levies that'd be applied to the EU's own businesses?

Come on chap. There are reasons to criticise the negotiations, but this is really, really scraping the barrel.

Of course not, but as usual you're grabbing the wrong end of the stick. Try engaging in the point made, rather than what you think you might have a comeback for.

Why didn't the UK included "no levies on UK services" as part of the deal?
Failure to do so was egregiously shortsighted, considering the import of that sector to the uk economy.

M.