"Get off your Pelotons and back to the office"

[PeteinSQ]

captain_cynic said:

It's almost as if the Tories are completely out of touch with the average person.

You're shocked, I know.

He only mentioned the Peloton because a senior civil servant had said that working from home was good for her as she can work more flexibly and hop on her Peloton and do some exercise. It was a dig at her specifically and more broadly at the "lazy" civil service.

Our MD has a Peloton and has been promoting flexible working long before covid. Just because Oliver Dowden wants to trumpet these tropes doesn't make them true, especially as he's pretty much never actually had a proper job having graduated, worked at tory head office, done PR for a bit and then been a SPAD before becoming an MP.

[simonw67]

Electro1980 said:

Because location does matter. There are two ways of employing people overseas, outsourcing and direct employment. Both have been tried in significant levels in finance, IT and customer service functions and have been around for a long time. They don’t work, except in very specific circumstances. It’s not cheaper, it’s not easy. There are very specific circumstances where it does work, and 90% of those are quickly going to be taken over by automation.

What do you mean it's not cheaper to outsource to India/Poland etc: many businesses have done it and has been much cheaper for data processing/finance.

[ecsrobin]

I was a key worker so continued to work the last 18 months or so, our HR and supporting services all went WFH. I think they just took the opportunity to have an 18 month holiday as it would take days for a reply whereas before it would take minutes before WFH, one CS HR department only replied to emails on a Wednesday so god knows what was happening the rest of the week! There was also quite a bit of duplication due to shared mailboxes and so on. IT faults can’t all be solved remotely so the. A delay as they travel in.

I’m all for WFH but if business or the CS don’t have a reliable WFH structure then they should get back to the office until such time a suitable process has been established. I’m in a new role now and WFH has made me and the job more productive so it can work.

[rodericb]

Timothy Bucktu said:

spaximus said:

Well time will tell but as certain back office functions in the NHS are already done in India, why do you think business owners will not cut costs now they have proved, if it is to be believed, that location no longer matters?

No expensive offices in the UK, not as many employment rules to contend with, less union control, why would they not?

The same argument was used when the police said that employing PCO and highways officers would free up "real police" to do other work. They simply cut the number of "real police" as it was cheaper to do so.

When something like this happens the consequences that follow are always obvious but ignored.

Outsourcing to India is usually quite expensive, and the service received is almost always much, much worse than what you had before. It rarely works well.

People may outsource to low cost places but they'll all be piling into offices just the same.

[rodericb]

CheesecakeRunner said:

jdw100 said:

Had to google peloton.

Stationary exercise bike.

Start from about £1,500, up to £2,000 or so.

Average UK take-home pay is about £600 a week.

Two weeks to one months take home pay for the average worker then.

People on the average wage don’t buy Peletons. In the same way they don’t buy Bentleys.

It probably gives an insight into what goes on in that persons sphere if he's getting hamstrung by his co-workers shirking work for time on the peloton. All the while, the batteries in their Bentleys are probably going flat. But maybe that battery thing is a good thing as they can call a man to come and charge the battery - trickle down economics! On the upside, they probably aren't operating the drawbridges over their moats so often, saving wear and tear!

[kowalski655]

ecsrobin said:

I was a key worker so continued to work the last 18 months or so, our HR and supporting services all went WFH. I think they just took the opportunity to have an 18 month holiday as it would take days for a reply whereas before it would take minutes before WFH, one CS HR department only replied to emails on a Wednesday so god knows what was happening the rest of the week! There was also quite a bit of duplication due to shared mailboxes and so on. IT faults can’t all be solved remotely so the. A delay as they travel in.
....

That's a failure of management, not necessarily of WFH. With proper processes that could be handled.

[menousername]

Also was there not an announcement just a few weeks ago that the Govt were about to introduce a law saying staff will have the right to request they work from home?

I know it was vague and right to request is not the same as right to actually do it.

But as always their messaging is all over the show and changes weekly if not daily. And its getting very tiresome being gaslighted by them.

[simonw67]

menousername said:

Also was there not an announcement just a few weeks ago that the Govt were about to introduce a law saying staff will have the right to request they work from home?

I know it was vague and right to request is not the same as right to actually do it.

But as always their messaging is all over the show and changes weekly if not daily. And its getting very tiresome being gaslighted by them.

I think that was around flexible working, not necessarily wfh, so could be hours of working etc

[Yertis]

simonw67 said:

Perhaps for your business. Building relationships for new staff/existing colleagues. Staff development. More casual conversations, collaboration. Clarifications after the meeting (this shouldn't happen but with packed agendas things often get clarified afterwards) when people didn't get the chance. Large meetings usually benefit from body language signals and faster paced conversation as do weekly 'whiteboard' team meetings. Personally, not sitting listening to audio for meetings or staring at a screen all day is nice too.

This 100%. Throughout lockdown my certain individuals in my team were banging on about their ‘increased productivity’ WFH. Actual bottom line shows a completely picture.

[HappyClappy]

As I said in my first post you can’t blame them for wanting to work from home.

The commute for most is horrendous even those with a short distance usually have to endure sticking their head in someone’s smelly armpit.

Popping out for lunch and you will be relieved of at least £10 for some gopping mast produced slop from one of the few chains that remain.

Then you have to endure the wokeplace that has become a toxic cesspit of identity politics, gender pay gaps and the slightly mental #metoo movement.

I’d rather stay home too.

[Countdown]

Yertis said:

simonw67 said:

Perhaps for your business. Building relationships for new staff/existing colleagues. Staff development. More casual conversations, collaboration. Clarifications after the meeting (this shouldn't happen but with packed agendas things often get clarified afterwards) when people didn't get the chance. Large meetings usually benefit from body language signals and faster paced conversation as do weekly 'whiteboard' team meetings. Personally, not sitting listening to audio for meetings or staring at a screen all day is nice too.

This 100%. Throughout lockdown my certain individuals in my team were banging on about their ‘increased productivity’ WFH. Actual bottom line shows a completely picture.

When people talk about "increased productivity" I wonder what their role is in their particular organisation that enables them to

(a) calculate their OWN productivity
(b) be accurately aware of EVERYONE else's productivity

[Candellara]

Electro1980 said:

Every single time WFH is discussed this comes up. No, they won’t.

Yes they WILL. We are already doing this. We're currently taking on a member of staff that's "WFH" - resident in UAE :-)

If the jobs can be done from anywhere, why not.

[thewarlock]

Countdown said:

Yertis said:

simonw67 said:

Perhaps for your business. Building relationships for new staff/existing colleagues. Staff development. More casual conversations, collaboration. Clarifications after the meeting (this shouldn't happen but with packed agendas things often get clarified afterwards) when people didn't get the chance. Large meetings usually benefit from body language signals and faster paced conversation as do weekly 'whiteboard' team meetings. Personally, not sitting listening to audio for meetings or staring at a screen all day is nice too.

This 100%. Throughout lockdown my certain individuals in my team were banging on about their ‘increased productivity’ WFH. Actual bottom line shows a completely picture.

When people talk about "increased productivity" I wonder what their role is in their particular organisation that enables them to

(a) calculate their OWN productivity
(b) be accurately aware of EVERYONE else's productivity

I'm a structural engineer that runs a small team just now on a design project.

I'm more productive as I have less distractions, less standing about in the kitchen drinking coffee, less people appearing at my desk at random times of the day to ask silly questions.

As for my team (I can't speak for EVERYONE in the entire company), on average we're getting the work done quicker.

The main downside for me is lack of a plotter at home, as I prefer to review hard copies of drawings, and these drawings are usually A0 or bigger, as well as usually being classified/restricted, meaning you can't just go to the local copy place and print them off.

[captain_cynic]

Candellara said:

Electro1980 said:

Every single time WFH is discussed this comes up. No, they won’t.

Yes they WILL. We are already doing this. We're currently taking on a member of staff that's "WFH" - resident in UAE :-)

If the jobs can be done from anywhere, why not.

Sample size of 1 registered.

Meanwhile I'm.watching a company slowly self destruct from trying to outsource. They began this before WFH so it's not a new thing... Yet jobs still exist in the UK. If a company wants to offshore, they're going to do it regardless of WFH... So there has to be a reason many don't.

BTW, you can employ someone who lives overseas "locally". They just have to have rights to work in the UK and pay tax here. Doesn't matter where they are physically located.

[ClaphamGT3]

A few thoughts on working from home;

1) it is largely a white collar/middle class conceit that the workforce will now move to wfh. Even in major cities, with their far higher than average number of knowledge workers in the workforce, only c 50% can wfh

2) socially and economically, wfh compromises the benefits of agglomeration. Small, isolated communities are poor for a reason and, equally, London is the largest net contributor of any region in the UK for a reason - it is the only city in the UK that has absolutely nailed agglomeration

3) wfh compromises creativity, innovation, training and development. Tech does mean that these needs can be somewhat addressed when wfh but they are more easily achieved in an office/work environment

4) studies show that the much vaunted productivity benefit of wfh is actually overstated. Despite avoiding 'dead' commuting time and workplace time inefficiencies, productivity has not dramatically risen and, in some businesses and sectors, has fallen since the beginning of the pandemic.

Overall, I suspect that we will see more wfh and flexible/adaptive working than before Covid but predictions that it will - or even could - be 'the new norm' are fanciful

[croyde]

ecsrobin said:

I was a key worker so continued to work the last 18 months or so, our HR and supporting services all went WFH. I think they just took the opportunity to have an 18 month holiday as it would take days for a reply whereas before it would take minutes before WFH, one CS HR department only replied to emails on a Wednesday so god knows what was happening the rest of the week! There was also quite a bit of duplication due to shared mailboxes and so on. IT faults can’t all be solved remotely so the. A delay as they travel in.

I’m all for WFH but if business or the CS don’t have a reliable WFH structure then they should get back to the office until such time a suitable process has been established. I’m in a new role now and WFH has made me and the job more productive so it can work.

Yeah, our line manager is still working from home, or time in a villa on the Med, whilst the rest of us have slogged it into the office all through this mess.

I'll give her this, she does answer phone or reply to emails and texts on a Friday night and over the weekend.

Does make me laugh that she's sending us emails from beside a pool whilst sipping on a Pina colada, telling us that we need to be in extra early on a Monday morning.

All for £80k a year.

[PeteinSQ]

ClaphamGT3 said:

A few thoughts on working from home;

1) it is largely a white collar/middle class conceit that the workforce will now move to wfh. Even in major cities with a far higher than average number of knowledge workers in the workforce, only c 50% can wfh

2) socially and economically, wfh compromises the benefits of agglomeration. Small, isolated communities are poor for a reason and, equally, London is the largest net contributor of any region in the UK for a reason - it is the only city in the UK that has absolutely nailed agglomeration

3) wfh compromises creativity, innovation, training and development. Tech does mean that these needs can be somewhat addressed when wfh but they are more easily achieved in an office/work environment

4) studies show that the much vaunted productivity benefit of wfh is actually overstated. Despite avoiding 'dead' commuting time and workplace time inefficiencies, productivity has not dramatically risen and, in some businesses and sectors, has fallen since the beginning of the pandemic.

Overall, I suspect that we will see more wfh and flexible/adaptive working than before Covid but predictions that it will - or even could - be 'the new norm' are fanciful

I'm sure all of what you have said is true. But what it doesn't include is the benefits to the staff of WFH part time - if you're an employer competing for comparatively small numbers of qualified/talented individuals then you need to bear that in mind.

Where I work they're going for a 2/3 days in 2 days at home approach. This tackles a lot of your points especially point 3.

Doesn't the use of tech overcome some of the lack of agglomeration issues? Has to be good news for the PM's levelling up agenda if better paid jobs are now more widely dispersed around the country too.

[PeteinSQ]

croyde said:

Yeah, our line manager is still working from home, or time in a villa on the Med, whilst the rest of us have slogged it into the office all through this mess.

I'll give her this, she does answer phone or reply to emails and texts on a Friday night and over the weekend.

Does make me laugh that she's sending us emails from beside a pool whilst sipping on a Pina colada, telling us that we need to be in extra early on a Monday morning.

All for £80k a year.

wow, surprised there hasn't been a mutiny.

[hairykrishna]

Countdown said:

When people talk about "increased productivity" I wonder what their role is in their particular organisation that enables them to

(a) calculate their OWN productivity
(b) be accurately aware of EVERYONE else's productivity

Sometimes it's easy to measure. It happened that when the first lockdown kicked in I was doing a lot of simulation work. I know very well how much code I tended to get written in an average day in the the office. I know how much I wrote at home.

[ClaphamGT3]

PeteinSQ said:

ClaphamGT3 said:

A few thoughts on working from home;

1) it is largely a white collar/middle class conceit that the workforce will now move to wfh. Even in major cities with a far higher than average number of knowledge workers in the workforce, only c 50% can wfh

2) socially and economically, wfh compromises the benefits of agglomeration. Small, isolated communities are poor for a reason and, equally, London is the largest net contributor of any region in the UK for a reason - it is the only city in the UK that has absolutely nailed agglomeration

3) wfh compromises creativity, innovation, training and development. Tech does mean that these needs can be somewhat addressed when wfh but they are more easily achieved in an office/work environment

4) studies show that the much vaunted productivity benefit of wfh is actually overstated. Despite avoiding 'dead' commuting time and workplace time inefficiencies, productivity has not dramatically risen and, in some businesses and sectors, has fallen since the beginning of the pandemic.

Overall, I suspect that we will see more wfh and flexible/adaptive working than before Covid but predictions that it will - or even could - be 'the new norm' are fanciful

I'm sure all of what you have said is true. But what it doesn't include is the benefits to the staff of WFH part time - if you're an employer competing for comparatively small numbers of qualified/talented individuals then you need to bear that in mind.

Where I work they're going for a 2/3 days in 2 days at home approach. This tackles a lot of your points especially point 3.

Doesn't the use of tech overcome some of the lack of agglomeration issues? Has to be good news for the PM's levelling up agenda if better paid jobs are now more widely dispersed around the country too.

I think we're agreed on all but your last point - hence me saying more flexible/adaptive working but not wfh as the norm.

Your last point is the one I'd challenge. To put it perfectly simply, places still need to attract specific activity at scale to create agglomeration benefit. As a professional in urbanism and urban regeneration, the facile notion that you can distribute sectors & activity across multiple/indefinite locations and still get agglomeration benefit makes me want to push quite large things over. As a far more eminent urbanist than I once said, to sum the issue up perfectly simply "successful places have to be famous for something".

The levelling up challenge is more to do with the fact that London has, currently, better than any other UK place at agglomerating - it has Financial Services, Culture & the arts, public administration, tech, media and - if you include its economic hinterland across the south east - life sciences, chem pharma and even agri-tech.

Levelling up isn't about forcibly breaking some if these away from London & moving them elsewhere or - even worse - trying to fragment them across the UK; it's about helping other towns and cities across the UK develop their prospectus for investment based on capitalising on their local skills and strengths. Andy Street and the WMCA pretty much gets this and has done good work focusing the west mids on exploiting its strengths in automotive & mobility and Bristol also has done well with its focus on media and tech. So far the northern cities have been really poor in their responses. Burnham in particular (despite being an effective mayor and champion for GM) has really sold GM short with his 'we just want a bit of London' mentality.

/Rant off