Discussion
WorldBoss said:
Why are people comparing apples to oranges and then by extension trying to use that data to try and see how peaches might fair against apples in competition? 
The performance differences between "boys" and women have absolutely nothing to do with the trans athlete debate.
Trans athletes (or more specifically in this debate, trans women) aren't boys, neither do the trans women eligible to compete in the competitions discussed have a hormonal profile any where close to that of a young man going through puberty.
Hormone replacement therapy has massive effects on the strength and performance of a trans athlete, for those on either end of the spectrum, and while it doesn't change certain things, it absolutely changes enough to make any attempt to compare Trans women directly to men running on testosterone completely disingenuous if you have any interest in actual facts, and not your feelings that all trans women are in fact actually all secretly blokes.
Hence the confusion that Fina haven't shown their working out and findings In regards to their ruling, because so far the studies actually focusing on trans athletes retaining any advantages having gone through a male pubert have been inconclusive and surprisingly small in number given all the hot air this debate causes.
Any further actual scientific research and findings on the subject would have been welcome. Instead we essentially got "we asked a few people, just trust us, ok".
Wasn't just FINA Rugby League and Rugby Union all made same decision....either they are transphobic or they look at evidence and realities in their sports an athlete 1ft taller than others has an advantage and that greater size came about due to birth sex not just natural selected within their chosen gender.The performance differences between "boys" and women have absolutely nothing to do with the trans athlete debate.
Trans athletes (or more specifically in this debate, trans women) aren't boys, neither do the trans women eligible to compete in the competitions discussed have a hormonal profile any where close to that of a young man going through puberty.
Hormone replacement therapy has massive effects on the strength and performance of a trans athlete, for those on either end of the spectrum, and while it doesn't change certain things, it absolutely changes enough to make any attempt to compare Trans women directly to men running on testosterone completely disingenuous if you have any interest in actual facts, and not your feelings that all trans women are in fact actually all secretly blokes.
Hence the confusion that Fina haven't shown their working out and findings In regards to their ruling, because so far the studies actually focusing on trans athletes retaining any advantages having gone through a male pubert have been inconclusive and surprisingly small in number given all the hot air this debate causes.
Any further actual scientific research and findings on the subject would have been welcome. Instead we essentially got "we asked a few people, just trust us, ok".
andyA700 said:
Transmen have given birth. No male in history has ever given birth, therefore transmen are female. Transwomen have made women pregnant. No female in history has ever impregnated another female, therefore transwomen are male.
What are you using to quantify male and female?MC Bodge said:
ZedLeg said:
I don't believe in debating the basic rights of trans people no, this sport thing is only one small aspect of the larger campaign against them.
This "sport thing" is the wrong hill to chose to die on for your cause.Randy Winkman said:
MC Bodge said:
ZedLeg said:
I don't believe in debating the basic rights of trans people no, this sport thing is only one small aspect of the larger campaign against them.
This "sport thing" is the wrong hill to chose to die on for your cause.People in general are becoming more accepting of others who are different to them, most people would not go out of their way to be unpleasant and would treat people as they wish to be treated.
Joe Public probably don't think too much about trans-
gender issues ordinarily, because it is relatively uncommon.
Taking the transgender fight to women's sport is a mistake in my view, as it is wrong and it becomes the focal point for Joe Public's view of transgender issues as a whole.
MC Bodge said:
Taking the transgender fight to women's sport is a mistake in my view, as it is wrong and it becomes the focal point for Joe Public's view of transgender issues as a whole.
That's weird phrasing, it was the "gender critical feminists" who started campaigning against trans women in sport like it was a huge issue and making it a focal point of the average person's perception of trans people is the point. They make a huge amount of noise without actually saying anything concrete and force trans people to defend their right to live in peace on a daily basis.Randy Winkman said:
MC Bodge said:
ZedLeg said:
I don't believe in debating the basic rights of trans people no, this sport thing is only one small aspect of the larger campaign against them.
This "sport thing" is the wrong hill to chose to die on for your cause.It's a wedge issue pure and simple, it's such a tiny issue, swimming has never had an elite trans swimmer, neither have many sports had elite trans competitors and even when there have been notable examples which we can pretty much name and count on our fingers they have not made any significant progress or achievements.
MC Bodge said:
Why not just back down from the elite women's sport issue then?
It won't go away, the idea of the wedge is to keep forcing the issues progressively moving onto the next easy target. None of those campaigning against trans sport participants are silent on wider trans peoples lives. Sharron Davies has made comments on trans healthcare for instance. Wishing for it to be shut down by the courts.ETA
Plus how daft is it to suggest trans people as a whole abandon and stay silent on sport.
Edited by 8.4L 154 on Friday 24th June 16:27
WorldBoss said:
andyA700 said:
Transmen have given birth. No male in history has ever given birth, therefore transmen are female. Transwomen have made women pregnant. No female in history has ever impregnated another female, therefore transwomen are male.
What are you using to quantify male and female?
WorldBoss said:
Hormone replacement therapy has massive effects on the strength and performance of a trans athlete, for those on either end of the spectrum, and while it doesn't change certain things, it absolutely changes enough to make any attempt to compare Trans women directly to men running on testosterone completely disingenuous if you have any interest in actual facts, and not your feelings that all trans women are in fact actually all secretly blokes.
so the extra lung capacity, blood cells, muscle density, bone density, height, strength etc from being a male give no advantage when competing in women's sports?8.4L 154 said:
MC Bodge said:
Why not just back down from the elite women's sport issue then?
It won't go away, the idea of the wedge is to keep forcing the issues progressively moving onto the next easy target. None of those campaigning against trans sport participants are silent on wider trans peoples lives. Sharron Davies has made comments on trans healthcare for instance. Wishing for it to be shut down by the courts.ETA
Plus how daft is it to suggest trans people as a whole abandon and stay silent on sport.
Edited by 8.4L 154 on Friday 24th June 16:27
I think taking a hard line all or nothing approach on these social issues like this a bad idea, the downsides of it are huge.
I'm worried about the road this is leading the LGBT community down to be honest.
I think the principle that trans people should not be treated any differently to other people of the same gender is always going to be in conflict with situations where people are treated differently because of their sex - situations where the reason the different treatment exists is not cultural but physiological.
I think some people picking the canonical example of this conflict as a hill to die upon is not doing any good at all for the vast majority of trans people to whom the right to participate in elite sporting competition is practically irrelevant.
I think some people picking the canonical example of this conflict as a hill to die upon is not doing any good at all for the vast majority of trans people to whom the right to participate in elite sporting competition is practically irrelevant.
gregs656 said:
8.4L 154 said:
MC Bodge said:
Why not just back down from the elite women's sport issue then?
It won't go away, the idea of the wedge is to keep forcing the issues progressively moving onto the next easy target. None of those campaigning against trans sport participants are silent on wider trans peoples lives. Sharron Davies has made comments on trans healthcare for instance. Wishing for it to be shut down by the courts.ETA
Plus how daft is it to suggest trans people as a whole abandon and stay silent on sport.
Edited by 8.4L 154 on Friday 24th June 16:27
I think taking a hard line all or nothing approach on these social issues like this a bad idea, the downsides of it are huge.
I'm worried about the road this is leading the LGBT community down to be honest.
Trans people shouldn’t have to engage in a “hearts and minds” campaign against what is essentially a hate movement.
As for the community in general, we’ll continue to stand our ground as best we can. It’s the people spouting hate and the people who are trying to both sides this that are pushing us down a scary road.
gregs656 said:
8.4L 154 said:
MC Bodge said:
Why not just back down from the elite women's sport issue then?
It won't go away, the idea of the wedge is to keep forcing the issues progressively moving onto the next easy target. None of those campaigning against trans sport participants are silent on wider trans peoples lives. Sharron Davies has made comments on trans healthcare for instance. Wishing for it to be shut down by the courts.ETA
Plus how daft is it to suggest trans people as a whole abandon and stay silent on sport.
Edited by 8.4L 154 on Friday 24th June 16:27
I think taking a hard line all or nothing approach on these social issues like this a bad idea, the downsides of it are huge.
I'm worried about the road this is leading the LGBT community down to be honest.
Testosterone limits have only been reduced, trans people haven't complained widely about that, chances are any one transitioning is well below even the 2.5nmol which is the lowest and below cis female range I've seen.
The changes are from inclusion to exclusion and that should only happen with cast iron evidence, there is none, there isn't even a successful athlete in that 20 years and now in swimming there never will be nor is there any opportunities to collect the evidence. There is just misinformation. Take the above post about trans women red blood cells. It's often claimed RBC of trans women is that of men, it's not, HRT lowers RBC, lung size is only relevant if the blood can carry the oxygen, what did I just say about RBC? there simply isn't the blood to carry the oxygen it's just oversized lungs that need to be carried.
Same with strength, muscles can't be maintained the same without testosterone, that is not controversial even the most anti trans "research" doesn't dispute that.
Waiting 20 years won't achieve anything when today is the clock being turned back 20 years or 50 years in other areas, Today's SCOTUS announcement is not in isolation, it's the same people pressing back against trans sport are the ones overturning abortion and have already set sights on obergefell, of course the rest of LGB people are at risk, that's the idea, trans people have been saying that since before Trump was elected.
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