Discussion
This culture is presumably why a regular long time male blood donor was told he couldn't give blood unless he confirmed he wasn't preganant.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/if-you-cant-don...
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/if-you-cant-don...
McGee_22 said:
Yes, you have no concerns, or yes you have concerns?
Yes, I "genuinely have no concerns".When there's evidence comparing the performance of trans women eligible for competition to other women eligible for competition that shows an unfair advantage for the trans athletes I'll gladly reconsider my position
WorldBoss said:
Yes, I "genuinely have no concerns".
When there's evidence comparing the performance of trans women eligible for competition to other women eligible for competition that shows an unfair advantage for the trans athletes I'll gladly reconsider my position
I'm not normally a fan of the "it should be obvious" style of debating position but in this particular case you're ignoring what is blatantly obvious.When there's evidence comparing the performance of trans women eligible for competition to other women eligible for competition that shows an unfair advantage for the trans athletes I'll gladly reconsider my position
WorldBoss said:
McGee_22 said:
Yes, you have no concerns, or yes you have concerns?
Yes, I "genuinely have no concerns".When there's evidence comparing the performance of trans women eligible for competition to other women eligible for competition that shows an unfair advantage for the trans athletes I'll gladly reconsider my position
Arguing about non-contact sports is just that but if you think men and women should be able to fight each other you have a screw loose. Absolutely appalling.
I get called a gammon most weeks at work
Which is unfair
Every few weeks there’s something you have to remove from your vocabulary
People are offended on behalf of someone else
All this is crap
A man is a man a woman is a woman and That's it.
If he decides to cross dress or change gender then he must be really keen to do it
Let him do it.
End of.
Doesn’t need a new term
He becomes a woman
Let him still enter sports as a man though.
Otherwise you’d get men entering womens fottball and cycling and gaining an advantage
Same applies to a women
coming up with New terminology
Load of old crap
Kids go through all sorts of phases growing up
What’s next
I identify as a packet of oxo cubes?
There’s going to be a massive
Mental health hill to climb
In thirty years with all this rubbish.
I’m glad my parents aren’t around to see all this.
Which is unfair
Every few weeks there’s something you have to remove from your vocabulary
People are offended on behalf of someone else
All this is crap
A man is a man a woman is a woman and That's it.
If he decides to cross dress or change gender then he must be really keen to do it
Let him do it.
End of.
Doesn’t need a new term
He becomes a woman
Let him still enter sports as a man though.
Otherwise you’d get men entering womens fottball and cycling and gaining an advantage
Same applies to a women
coming up with New terminology
Load of old crap
Kids go through all sorts of phases growing up
What’s next
I identify as a packet of oxo cubes?
There’s going to be a massive
Mental health hill to climb
In thirty years with all this rubbish.
I’m glad my parents aren’t around to see all this.
World Rugby covers it.
"Transgender women may not currently play women's rugby
Why? Because of the size, force- and power-producing advantages conferred by testosterone during puberty and adolescence, and the resultant player welfare risks this creates"
" Similarly, scrum forces are significantly greater in men's rugby (twice as high for elite men vs elite women, and 40% higher for community level men compared to elite women). The implication of this finding is a significant increase in injury rates in contact situations, since the magnitude of forces and energy transfer in those contacts will increase substantially as a result of the collection of physical attributes that differ by biological sex."
https://www.world.rugby/the-game/player-welfare/gu...
The welfare of female competitors in contact sports must take priority. Actual hurt over hurt feelings.
"Transgender women may not currently play women's rugby
Why? Because of the size, force- and power-producing advantages conferred by testosterone during puberty and adolescence, and the resultant player welfare risks this creates"
" Similarly, scrum forces are significantly greater in men's rugby (twice as high for elite men vs elite women, and 40% higher for community level men compared to elite women). The implication of this finding is a significant increase in injury rates in contact situations, since the magnitude of forces and energy transfer in those contacts will increase substantially as a result of the collection of physical attributes that differ by biological sex."
https://www.world.rugby/the-game/player-welfare/gu...
The welfare of female competitors in contact sports must take priority. Actual hurt over hurt feelings.
Disastrous said:
In which case, I think you reveal your position to be so extreme that it broadly invalidates anything you post.
Arguing about non-contact sports is just that but if you think men and women should be able to fight each other you have a screw loose. Absolutely appalling.
Similarly i would say that your extreme feeling that the trans women that are eligible to compete in said events are actually men broadly invalidates your view point to me Arguing about non-contact sports is just that but if you think men and women should be able to fight each other you have a screw loose. Absolutely appalling.
I mean, you're welcome to your feelings, but the harsh reality is that they absolutely aren't backed up by any scientific basis or even anecdotal performance results: The only high profile trans women In contact sports I can think of is Fallon Fox... Who lost to a cis women.
Meanwhile on the other end of the spectrum and the "sex above all" view point: Mack Briggs, forced to compete as his birth sex in a contact sport: 57-0 one year, undefeated at High School level at female level, and made a decent go competing in the male class at college level when it was allowed to compete in the right category
That's sex above all participation for you.
irc said:
World Rugby covers it.
"Transgender women may not currently play women's rugby
Why? Because of the size, force- and power-producing advantages conferred by testosterone during puberty and adolescence, and the resultant player welfare risks this creates"
" Similarly, scrum forces are significantly greater in men's rugby (twice as high for elite men vs elite women, and 40% higher for community level men compared to elite women). The implication of this finding is a significant increase in injury rates in contact situations, since the magnitude of forces and energy transfer in those contacts will increase substantially as a result of the collection of physical attributes that differ by biological sex."
https://www.world.rugby/the-game/player-welfare/gu...
The welfare of female competitors in contact sports must take priority. Actual hurt over hurt feelings.
I’d be curious to see whether the advantages stay constant throughout the life of a trans woman. Like does a 30 year old, 15 stone trans woman who transitioned 5 years ago and has been on estrogen ever since have a recordable advantage over a cis woman player of a comparable size and age."Transgender women may not currently play women's rugby
Why? Because of the size, force- and power-producing advantages conferred by testosterone during puberty and adolescence, and the resultant player welfare risks this creates"
" Similarly, scrum forces are significantly greater in men's rugby (twice as high for elite men vs elite women, and 40% higher for community level men compared to elite women). The implication of this finding is a significant increase in injury rates in contact situations, since the magnitude of forces and energy transfer in those contacts will increase substantially as a result of the collection of physical attributes that differ by biological sex."
https://www.world.rugby/the-game/player-welfare/gu...
The welfare of female competitors in contact sports must take priority. Actual hurt over hurt feelings.
Just based on the fact that the estrogen continues to weaken muscle and bone density for as long as you take it.
McGee_22 said:
World Boss and others who are very pro Trans-women competing alongside and against females - do you genuinely have no concerns about Trans Women competing against females at boxing, judo, kick-boxing, MMA, Rugby Union, Rugby League, Ice hockey, American Football, etc etc?
WorldBoss said:
McGee_22 said:
Yes, you have no concerns, or yes you have concerns?
Yes, I "genuinely have no concerns".When there's evidence comparing the performance of trans women eligible for competition to other women eligible for competition that shows an unfair advantage for the trans athletes I'll gladly reconsider my position
Edited by McGee_22 on Sunday 26th June 14:39
dirky dirk said:
I get called a gammon most weeks at work
Which is unfair
Every few weeks there’s something you have to remove from your vocabulary
People are offended on behalf of someone else
All this is crap
A man is a man a woman is a woman and That's it.
If he decides to cross dress or change gender then he must be really keen to do it
Let him do it.
End of.
Doesn’t need a new term
He becomes a woman
Let him still enter sports as a man though.
Otherwise you’d get men entering womens fottball and cycling and gaining an advantage
Same applies to a women
coming up with New terminology
Load of old crap
Kids go through all sorts of phases growing up
What’s next
I identify as a packet of oxo cubes?
There’s going to be a massive
Mental health hill to climb
In thirty years with all this rubbish.
I’m glad my parents aren’t around to see all this.
I can see why people might call you a gammon tbh. Which is unfair
Every few weeks there’s something you have to remove from your vocabulary
People are offended on behalf of someone else
All this is crap
A man is a man a woman is a woman and That's it.
If he decides to cross dress or change gender then he must be really keen to do it
Let him do it.
End of.
Doesn’t need a new term
He becomes a woman
Let him still enter sports as a man though.
Otherwise you’d get men entering womens fottball and cycling and gaining an advantage
Same applies to a women
coming up with New terminology
Load of old crap
Kids go through all sorts of phases growing up
What’s next
I identify as a packet of oxo cubes?
There’s going to be a massive
Mental health hill to climb
In thirty years with all this rubbish.
I’m glad my parents aren’t around to see all this.
dirky dirk said:
I get called a gammon most weeks at work
Which is unfair
Every few weeks there’s something you have to remove from your vocabulary
People are offended on behalf of someone else
All this is crap
A man is a man a woman is a woman and That's it.
If he decides to cross dress or change gender then he must be really keen to do it
Let him do it.
End of.
Doesn’t need a new term
He becomes a woman
Let him still enter sports as a man though.
Otherwise you’d get men entering womens fottball and cycling and gaining an advantage
Same applies to a women
coming up with New terminology
Load of old crap
Kids go through all sorts of phases growing up
What’s next
I identify as a packet of oxo cubes?
There’s going to be a massive
Mental health hill to climb
In thirty years with all this rubbish.
I’m glad my parents aren’t around to see all this.
My sentiments exactly, anything else is a load of bollicks (or not) Which is unfair
Every few weeks there’s something you have to remove from your vocabulary
People are offended on behalf of someone else
All this is crap
A man is a man a woman is a woman and That's it.
If he decides to cross dress or change gender then he must be really keen to do it
Let him do it.
End of.
Doesn’t need a new term
He becomes a woman
Let him still enter sports as a man though.
Otherwise you’d get men entering womens fottball and cycling and gaining an advantage
Same applies to a women
coming up with New terminology
Load of old crap
Kids go through all sorts of phases growing up
What’s next
I identify as a packet of oxo cubes?
There’s going to be a massive
Mental health hill to climb
In thirty years with all this rubbish.
I’m glad my parents aren’t around to see all this.
A friend has a son who has declared himself non binary (wtf) he has a very successful software business and lives with his male partner in life and the business, basically a pair of homosexuals who each call themselves mixter
Its madness.....
ZedLeg said:
dirky dirk said:
I get called a gammon most weeks at work
Which is unfair
Every few weeks there’s something you have to remove from your vocabulary
People are offended on behalf of someone else
All this is crap
A man is a man a woman is a woman and That's it.
If he decides to cross dress or change gender then he must be really keen to do it
Let him do it.
End of.
Doesn’t need a new term
He becomes a woman
Let him still enter sports as a man though.
Otherwise you’d get men entering womens fottball and cycling and gaining an advantage
Same applies to a women
coming up with New terminology
Load of old crap
Kids go through all sorts of phases growing up
What’s next
I identify as a packet of oxo cubes?
There’s going to be a massive
Mental health hill to climb
In thirty years with all this rubbish.
I’m glad my parents aren’t around to see all this.
I can see why people might call you a gammon tbh. Which is unfair
Every few weeks there’s something you have to remove from your vocabulary
People are offended on behalf of someone else
All this is crap
A man is a man a woman is a woman and That's it.
If he decides to cross dress or change gender then he must be really keen to do it
Let him do it.
End of.
Doesn’t need a new term
He becomes a woman
Let him still enter sports as a man though.
Otherwise you’d get men entering womens fottball and cycling and gaining an advantage
Same applies to a women
coming up with New terminology
Load of old crap
Kids go through all sorts of phases growing up
What’s next
I identify as a packet of oxo cubes?
There’s going to be a massive
Mental health hill to climb
In thirty years with all this rubbish.
I’m glad my parents aren’t around to see all this.
Bit when common sense is applied everything’s so much simpler.
dirky dirk said:
Yeah I get what you mean.
Bit when common sense is applied everything’s so much simpler.
One person’s common sense may come across as another’s bigotry.Bit when common sense is applied everything’s so much simpler.
Social norms are not fixed.
Sadly as we are seeing with the overturning of Roe vs Wade in the US, they can also go the wrong way.
Or maybe that is common sense, too?
272BHP said:
WorldBoss said:
McGee_22 said:
World Boss and others who are very pro Trans-women competing alongside and against females - do you genuinely have no concerns about Trans Women competing against females at boxing, judo, kick-boxing, MMA, Rugby Union, Rugby League, Ice hockey, American Football, etc etc?
Yes.A Joanna Lomu would pick up the ball and run straight through the entire 15 player opposition.
A Georgina Foreman would take on and knockout the top 5 females at the same time.
WorldBoss said:
Disastrous said:
In which case, I think you reveal your position to be so extreme that it broadly invalidates anything you post.
Arguing about non-contact sports is just that but if you think men and women should be able to fight each other you have a screw loose. Absolutely appalling.
Similarly i would say that your extreme feeling that the trans women that are eligible to compete in said events are actually men broadly invalidates your view point to me Arguing about non-contact sports is just that but if you think men and women should be able to fight each other you have a screw loose. Absolutely appalling.
I mean, you're welcome to your feelings, but the harsh reality is that they absolutely aren't backed up by any scientific basis or even anecdotal performance results: The only high profile trans women In contact sports I can think of is Fallon Fox... Who lost to a cis women.
Meanwhile on the other end of the spectrum and the "sex above all" view point: Mack Briggs, forced to compete as his birth sex in a contact sport: 57-0 one year, undefeated at High School level at female level, and made a decent go competing in the male class at college level when it was allowed to compete in the right category
That's sex above all participation for you.
There is a transwoman, Kelly Morgan, playing rugby against women in Wales. Apparently Kelly has injured a few opponents.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/49298550
Hannah Mouncey is a transwoman Australian handball player who repreesented their country at male and female tournaments.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannah_Mouncey
Transwoman Blair Hamilton plays in goal for the England Universities Women's football team.
https://www.outsports.com/trans/2022/4/8/23015253/...
WorldBoss said:
Disastrous said:
In which case, I think you reveal your position to be so extreme that it broadly invalidates anything you post.
Arguing about non-contact sports is just that but if you think men and women should be able to fight each other you have a screw loose. Absolutely appalling.
Similarly i would say that your extreme feeling that the trans women that are eligible to compete in said events are actually men broadly invalidates your view point to me Arguing about non-contact sports is just that but if you think men and women should be able to fight each other you have a screw loose. Absolutely appalling.
I mean, you're welcome to your feelings, but the harsh reality is that they absolutely aren't backed up by any scientific basis or even anecdotal performance results: The only high profile trans women In contact sports I can think of is Fallon Fox... Who lost to a cis women.
Meanwhile on the other end of the spectrum and the "sex above all" view point: Mack Briggs, forced to compete as his birth sex in a contact sport: 57-0 one year, undefeated at High School level at female level, and made a decent go competing in the male class at college level when it was allowed to compete in the right category
That's sex above all participation for you.
McGee_22 said:
Would you have any concerns about females competing against males at boxing, judo, kick-boxing, MMA, Rugby Union, Rugby League, Ice hockey, American Football, etc etc?
Dude I've made my position pretty clear already, tweaking the language to refer to sex terms doesn't really make any difference because in absolute isolation the usual definition of sex have precisely sweet F.A impact on performance. That is a fact not even FINA dispute in the report in question.Edited by McGee_22 on Sunday 26th June 14:39
Trans women should compete with other women.
Trans men should compete with other men.
That's my position, feel free to show me evidence that will change my mind
For all the "I identified as a woman and smashed the deadlift record, lolololol" memes and claims that cis men will transition in droves purely to compete in (and supposedly automatically dominate) women's categories of sport, precisely zero have actually transitioned to the point of eligibility for competition and done so.
For the near two decades of the current Olympic rules of trans inclusion, precisely zero trans women have even made it out of the heat stages.
But we have seen one trans woman win one race with times that aren't even particularly stellar for that level of competition, and suddenly it's all gone a bit too far and supporting trans inclusion in sport makes one a "women hater"?
WorldBoss said:
McGee_22 said:
Would you have any concerns about females competing against males at boxing, judo, kick-boxing, MMA, Rugby Union, Rugby League, Ice hockey, American Football, etc etc?
Dude I've made my position pretty clear already, tweaking the language to refer to sex terms doesn't really make any difference because in absolute isolation the usual definition of sex have precisely sweet F.A impact on performance. That is a fact not even FINA dispute in the report in question.Edited by McGee_22 on Sunday 26th June 14:39
Trans women should compete with other women.
Trans men should compete with other men.
That's my position, feel free to show me evidence that will change my mind
For all the "I identified as a woman and smashed the deadlift record, lolololol" memes and claims that cis men will transition in droves purely to compete in (and supposedly automatically dominate) women's categories of sport, precisely zero have actually transitioned to the point of eligibility for competition and done so.
For the near two decades of the current Olympic rules of trans inclusion, precisely zero trans women have even made it out of the heat stages.
But we have seen one trans woman win one race with times that aren't even particularly stellar for that level of competition, and suddenly it's all gone a bit too far and supporting trans inclusion in sport makes one a "women hater"?
irc said:
This culture is presumably why a regular long time male blood donor was told he couldn't give blood unless he confirmed he wasn't preganant.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/if-you-cant-don...
I like that way he says "It is nonsensical and it makes me angry because there are vulnerable people waiting for blood, including children, and in desperate need of help. But they’ve been denied my blood because of the obligation to answer a question that can’t possibly be answered." So he knows that to be the case, he actually went to the donation centre but then didn't give blood to help those people because he had to tick a box. And then claims it's a question "that can't possibly be answered". For flips sake, I'm male but I know 100% that I'm not pregnant. https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/if-you-cant-don...
https://metro.co.uk/2022/06/18/male-blood-donor-tu...
Like the PHer a few years ago who had a donor consent card but then said he would no longer agree to donate organs because of the rule-change that meant consent was assumed unless you said otherwise.
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