2SLGBTQQIA+

[anonymous-user]

McGee_22 said:

I'm sorry but where have you made your position clear on females competing against males? I'm genuinely sorry if I've missed it but could you clarify it please - Do you have any concerns on this or not?

It's all explained in the post you quoted above, but let's just skip to the sound bite you seemingly want:
No, I do not have any concerns with certain types of "male" (namely trans and intersex women) competing against "females".

[McGee_22]

WorldBoss said:

McGee_22 said:

I'm sorry but where have you made your position clear on females competing against males? I'm genuinely sorry if I've missed it but could you clarify it please - Do you have any concerns on this or not?

It's all explained in the post you quoted above, but let's just skip to the sound bite you seemingly want:
No, I do not have any concerns with certain types of "male" (namely trans and intersex women) competing against "females".

It really seems like you are trying to avoid answering the question but giving you the benefit of the doubt I'll ask one last time - do you have concerns about about females (not trans-women, not intersex) competing in sports against males (not trans-men, not intersex)?

No complications, just CIS males against CIS females in such sports as boxing, judo, kick-boxing, MMA, Rugby Union, Rugby League, Ice hockey, American Football, etc etc?

Edit to add CIS

Edited by McGee_22 on Sunday 26th June 17:57

[irc]

Randy Winkman said:

I like that way he says "It is nonsensical and it makes me angry because there are vulnerable people waiting for blood, including children, and in desperate need of help. But they’ve been denied my blood because of the obligation to answer a question that can’t possibly be answered." So he knows that to be the case, he actually went to the donation centre but then didn't give blood to help those people because he had to tick a box. And then claims it's a question "that can't possibly be answered". For flips sake, I'm male but I know 100% that I'm not pregnant.

https://metro.co.uk/2022/06/18/male-blood-donor-tu...

Like the PHer a few years ago who had a donor consent card but then said he would no longer agree to donate organs because of the rule-change that meant consent was assumed unless you said otherwise.

Well yes and no. I can see your point but then should you have to accept propoganda you don't agree with to make a donation?

I'm not medically qualified but I would have thought that a medical record would include the fact that you were male or female in almost all cases so why should the question require asking?

[Biggy Stardust]

irc said:

Well yes and no. I can see your point but then should you have to accept propoganda you don't agree with to make a donation?

I'm not medically qualified but I would have thought that a medical record would include the fact that you were male or female in almost all cases so why should the question require asking?

The obvious answer to your question: it validates the opinion of those wishing to force their worldview on others.

[Gecko1978]

Zedleg World Boss and 8.4l 154 have I think stated how they feel about this issue quite clearly transwomen should be allowed to compete end if.

I think that sums up their view and little more needs to be said. This thread is descending into the usual you hate trans you hate women back an forth it's not productive

Trans men and women are different to CIS men an women and always will be. The margin of difference will need to be reviewed by sports bodies. Sometimes they will find in favour sometimes not and we all have to accept it but can ask why an campaign for change if we are unhappy.

[gregs656]

Gecko1978 said:

Zedleg World Boss and 8.4l 154 have I think stated how they feel about this issue quite clearly transwomen should be allowed to compete end if.

I think that sums up their view and little more needs to be said. This thread is descending into the usual you hate trans you hate women back an forth it's not productive

Trans men and women are different to CIS men an women and always will be. The margin of difference will need to be reviewed by sports bodies. Sometimes they will find in favour sometimes not and we all have to accept it but can ask why an campaign for change if we are unhappy.

I agree.

I also think this will be less contentious when we have athletes who never went through male puberty.

[Randy Winkman]

irc said:

Randy Winkman said:

I like that way he says "It is nonsensical and it makes me angry because there are vulnerable people waiting for blood, including children, and in desperate need of help. But they’ve been denied my blood because of the obligation to answer a question that can’t possibly be answered." So he knows that to be the case, he actually went to the donation centre but then didn't give blood to help those people because he had to tick a box. And then claims it's a question "that can't possibly be answered". For flips sake, I'm male but I know 100% that I'm not pregnant.

https://metro.co.uk/2022/06/18/male-blood-donor-tu...

Like the PHer a few years ago who had a donor consent card but then said he would no longer agree to donate organs because of the rule-change that meant consent was assumed unless you said otherwise.

Well yes and no. I can see your point but then should you have to accept propoganda you don't agree with to make a donation?

I'm not medically qualified but I would have thought that a medical record would include the fact that you were male or female in almost all cases so why should the question require asking?

I give blood regularly and assume, but dont know for sure, that the form is the same for males and females but at the top somewhere it has something that shows whether you are male or female. Anyway, if men dont have to answer that question it then still has to have the question but say "if you are male, move on to question x". So the question is still there, men still have to read that part of the form and follow the instruction and by the time they have done that they might just have ticked the box to say they aren't pregnant. Which despite what the guy in the article says, is a fact that they do know. I think he is "entitled" because he thinks his view of what should and shouldn't be on the form is more important than helping the "vulnerable people waiting for blood, including children, and in desperate need of help". Perhaps he only gives blood so he can tell people he gives blood rather than to actually help others? Though perhaps this is all for another thread?

[RobbieTheTruth]

Disastrous said:

WorldBoss said:

Disastrous said:

In which case, I think you reveal your position to be so extreme that it broadly invalidates anything you post.

Arguing about non-contact sports is just that but if you think men and women should be able to fight each other you have a screw loose. Absolutely appalling.

Similarly i would say that your extreme feeling that the trans women that are eligible to compete in said events are actually men broadly invalidates your view point to me

I mean, you're welcome to your feelings, but the harsh reality is that they absolutely aren't backed up by any scientific basis or even anecdotal performance results: The only high profile trans women In contact sports I can think of is Fallon Fox... Who lost to a cis women.

Meanwhile on the other end of the spectrum and the "sex above all" view point: Mack Briggs, forced to compete as his birth sex in a contact sport: 57-0 one year, undefeated at High School level at female level, and made a decent go competing in the male class at college level when it was allowed to compete in the right category

That's sex above all participation for you.

You can always find an outlier to try to make your point but the fact is, if you want trans people competing in contact sports and get your own way, you’ll be responsible for people being killed or seriously injured.

He's made his opinion clear - his agenda far outweighs the safety of women and IMO his views are as abhorrent as I've ever encountered but he's entitled to them.

His basic argument now seems to be people born male should compete because there is no evidence they'll be better.

Luckily governing bodies are stepping in and putting a stop to it.

[RobbieTheTruth]

Gecko1978 said:

Zedleg World Boss and 8.4l 154 have I think stated how they feel about this issue quite clearly transwomen should be allowed to compete end if.

I think that sums up their view and little more needs to be said. This thread is descending into the usual you hate trans you hate women back an forth it's not productive

Trans men and women are different to CIS men an women and always will be. The margin of difference will need to be reviewed by sports bodies. Sometimes they will find in favour sometimes not and we all have to accept it but can ask why an campaign for change if we are unhappy.

Agree - it's the first time I've seen anyone really admit to wanting people born male to be able to compete against women in combat sport, and it's a real eye opener that people who hold such beliefs are among us.

Luckily, governing bodies are stepping in and protecting women from people like this.

[ZedLeg]

gregs656 said:

Gecko1978 said:

Zedleg World Boss and 8.4l 154 have I think stated how they feel about this issue quite clearly transwomen should be allowed to compete end if.

I think that sums up their view and little more needs to be said. This thread is descending into the usual you hate trans you hate women back an forth it's not productive

Trans men and women are different to CIS men an women and always will be. The margin of difference will need to be reviewed by sports bodies. Sometimes they will find in favour sometimes not and we all have to accept it but can ask why an campaign for change if we are unhappy.

I agree.

I also think this will be less contentious when we have athletes who never went through male puberty.

You’ve clearly never seen the pearl clutching about puberty blockers if you think that’s the case.

I agree with this to an extent, I only came back into the thread to post that twitter thread I thought was interesting and I got hooked back in.

The problem I have with these “debates” is that it’s not isolated to obscure rules for elite sports people. The people who are attacking trans people use whatever they can get.

Off the back of the sports stuff, we’ve had cisgender women who organise amateur inclusive events being mobbed by GCs and called handmaidens etc because they don’t conform to their beliefs. Will we see amateur teams kick trans players out because of pressure? I don’t know but I’d bet they’ll try.

If trans women can’t compete in elite sport until more study is done (or if the study proves an advantage) it is what it is. The danger with the way this has been reported and shared on social media is that legitimate questions about fairness at the top level may be used to exclude women from sport at all levels.

Not to mention that this pressure is in lots of other areas too, changing room and toilet access, the push in the US towards bans on trans healthcare. We’ve even seen similar rhetoric from our own government. The people doing this want to push trans people into hiding to the point where they functionally don’t exist. Judging by the rhetoric from them, they won’t stop there.

Apologies as this has been a bit of a ramble but I’m going to try and make it my last words in this thread. To people who aren’t interested in LGBT+ issues and activism this might seem like a trivial thing to fight so hard for, but if you watch what the people who are celebrating this say, it’s the rolling pebbles at the start of a backslide on LGBT+ equality and acceptance. I hope I’m wrong and it all ends up being a fuss over nothing but I’d rather fight for the small things now than sit and watch them become big things.

[Gecko1978]

ZedLeg said:

You’ve clearly never seen the pearl clutching about puberty blockers if you think that’s the case.

I agree with this to an extent, I only came back into the thread to post that twitter thread I thought was interesting and I got hooked back in.

The problem I have with these “debates” is that it’s not isolated to obscure rules for elite sports people. The people who are attacking trans people use whatever they can get.

Off the back of the sports stuff, we’ve had cisgender women who organise amateur inclusive events being mobbed by GCs and called handmaidens etc because they don’t conform to their beliefs. Will we see amateur teams kick trans players out because of pressure? I don’t know but I’d bet they’ll try.

If trans women can’t compete in elite sport until more study is done (or if the study proves an advantage) it is what it is. The danger with the way this has been reported and shared on social media is that legitimate questions about fairness at the top level may be used to exclude women from sport at all levels.

Not to mention that this pressure is in lots of other areas too, changing room and toilet access, the push in the US towards bans on trans healthcare. We’ve even seen similar rhetoric from our own government. The people doing this want to push trans people into hiding to the point where they functionally don’t exist. Judging by the rhetoric from them, they won’t stop there.

Apologies as this has been a bit of a ramble but I’m going to try and make it my last words in this thread. To people who aren’t interested in LGBT+ issues and activism this might seem like a trivial thing to fight so hard for, but if you watch what the people who are celebrating this say, it’s the rolling pebbles at the start of a backslide on LGBT+ equality and acceptance. I hope I’m wrong and it all ends up being a fuss over nothing but I’d rather fight for the small things now than sit and watch them become big things.

Hey Zed that's a wider point to be fair and if I am honest I am not sure how T fits with LGB but that's the broad title. Re amateur sports I take the view all sporting events are supposed to offer some level playing field. An so excluding trans women would logically make sense because the imbalance might still exist

[Randy Winkman]

ZedLeg said:

gregs656 said:

Gecko1978 said:

Zedleg World Boss and 8.4l 154 have I think stated how they feel about this issue quite clearly transwomen should be allowed to compete end if.

I think that sums up their view and little more needs to be said. This thread is descending into the usual you hate trans you hate women back an forth it's not productive

Trans men and women are different to CIS men an women and always will be. The margin of difference will need to be reviewed by sports bodies. Sometimes they will find in favour sometimes not and we all have to accept it but can ask why an campaign for change if we are unhappy.

I agree.

I also think this will be less contentious when we have athletes who never went through male puberty.

You’ve clearly never seen the pearl clutching about puberty blockers if you think that’s the case.

I agree with this to an extent, I only came back into the thread to post that twitter thread I thought was interesting and I got hooked back in.

The problem I have with these “debates” is that it’s not isolated to obscure rules for elite sports people. The people who are attacking trans people use whatever they can get.

Off the back of the sports stuff, we’ve had cisgender women who organise amateur inclusive events being mobbed by GCs and called handmaidens etc because they don’t conform to their beliefs. Will we see amateur teams kick trans players out because of pressure? I don’t know but I’d bet they’ll try.

If trans women can’t compete in elite sport until more study is done (or if the study proves an advantage) it is what it is. The danger with the way this has been reported and shared on social media is that legitimate questions about fairness at the top level may be used to exclude women from sport at all levels.

Not to mention that this pressure is in lots of other areas too, changing room and toilet access, the push in the US towards bans on trans healthcare. We’ve even seen similar rhetoric from our own government. The people doing this want to push trans people into hiding to the point where they functionally don’t exist. Judging by the rhetoric from them, they won’t stop there.

Apologies as this has been a bit of a ramble but I’m going to try and make it my last words in this thread. To people who aren’t interested in LGBT+ issues and activism this might seem like a trivial thing to fight so hard for, but if you watch what the people who are celebrating this say, it’s the rolling pebbles at the start of a backslide on LGBT+ equality and acceptance. I hope I’m wrong and it all ends up being a fuss over nothing but I’d rather fight for the small things now than sit and watch them become big things.

I also hope it turns out to be a fuss over nothing and as I've said before, I feel quite uncomfortable being on the side of those people who aren't seen as supportive of trans-rights. All the best to you.

[RobbieTheTruth]

Randy Winkman said:

I also hope it turns out to be a fuss over nothing and as I've said before, I feel quite uncomfortable being on the side of those people who aren't seen as supportive of trans-rights. All the best to you.

This is a very telling summary.

Basically - you know it's wrong/unfair that people born male are competing against women, but you're uncomfortable about being on the 'wrong side'.

This sums up the right vs left at the moment.

This is the reason we've ended up with the 'LGBT in support of Islam' marches. Basically, suicidal levels of idiocy, just so they can be seen to be doing the opposite of whatever they think a white, male, Daily Mail reader would support.

In reality, it should be perfectly reasonable to support the left whilst not wanting people born male in women's sport.

In reality, it should be perfectly reasonable to support the left whilst being concerned at Islams views on homosexuality or women's rights.

It's not though, once their views get so 'extreme' logic goes out of the window.

[Vanden Saab]

RobbieTheTruth said:

Randy Winkman said:

I also hope it turns out to be a fuss over nothing and as I've said before, I feel quite uncomfortable being on the side of those people who aren't seen as supportive of trans-rights. All the best to you.

This is a very telling summary.

Basically - you know it's wrong/unfair that people born male are competing against women, but you're uncomfortable about being on the 'wrong side'.

This sums up the right vs left at the moment.

This is the reason we've ended up with the 'LGBT in support of Islam' marches. Basically, suicidal levels of idiocy, just so they can be seen to be doing the opposite of whatever they think a white, male, Daily Mail reader would support.

In reality, it should be perfectly reasonable to support the left whilst not wanting people born male in women's sport.

In reality, it should be perfectly reasonable to support the left whilst being concerned at Islams views on homosexuality or women's rights.

It's not though, once their views get so 'extreme' logic goes out of the window.

It should also be possible for women to support the exclusion of men from women's sport and in other women only areas without being accused of 'attacking' trans people but not for some of the extremists on here..

[otolith]

RobbieTheTruth said:

Randy Winkman said:

I also hope it turns out to be a fuss over nothing and as I've said before, I feel quite uncomfortable being on the side of those people who aren't seen as supportive of trans-rights. All the best to you.

This is a very telling summary.

Basically - you know it's wrong/unfair that people born male are competing against women, but you're uncomfortable about being on the 'wrong side'.

It's always wise to double check in the event that one finds oneself agreeing with hatemongers. But even a stopped clock is right twice a day.

[andyA700]

RobbieTheTruth said:

Randy Winkman said:

I also hope it turns out to be a fuss over nothing and as I've said before, I feel quite uncomfortable being on the side of those people who aren't seen as supportive of trans-rights. All the best to you.

This is a very telling summary.

Basically - you know it's wrong/unfair that people born male are competing against women, but you're uncomfortable about being on the 'wrong side'.

This sums up the right vs left at the moment.

This is the reason we've ended up with the 'LGBT in support of Islam' marches. Basically, suicidal levels of idiocy, just so they can be seen to be doing the opposite of whatever they think a white, male, Daily Mail reader would support.

In reality, it should be perfectly reasonable to support the left whilst not wanting people born male in women's sport.

In reality, it should be perfectly reasonable to support the left whilst being concerned at Islams views on homosexuality or women's rights.

It's not though, once their views get so 'extreme' logic goes out of the window.

This is exactly my view of things. I regard myself as left of centre, used to vote Labour. However, as someone who used to compete at a decent level in several sports, I cannot ignore the patently obvious fact that males should not be allowed to compete in female sports. It was also the left leaning media sources who tried to downplay the mass sexual assaults in Germany a few years ago and also the grooming gangs in the UK.

[A500leroy]

This all goes back to my point on another thread, why does sport have to have mens and womens games, why not mixed?

In a workplace you wouldnt have genders doing the same job split into gender specific teams would you?

[otolith]

A500leroy said:

This all goes back to my point on another thread, why does sport have to have mens and womens games, why not mixed?

In a workplace you wouldnt have genders doing the same job split into gender specific teams would you?

In the workplace, do women consistently perform worse than men?

[Randy Winkman]

otolith said:

A500leroy said:

This all goes back to my point on another thread, why does sport have to have mens and womens games, why not mixed?

In a workplace you wouldnt have genders doing the same job split into gender specific teams would you?

In the workplace, do women consistently perform worse than men?

For me, sport doesn't have to have separate mens and womens events unless it's for health and safety reasons or there's a significant competitive aspect. Even at, for instance, club tennis level it's better to have a men's event and a women's event because that doubles the number of people who can enjoy competing for a top prize.

[otolith]

Randy Winkman said:

For me, sport doesn't have to have separate mens and womens events unless it's for health and safety reasons or there's a significant competitive aspect. Even at, for instance, club tennis level it's better to have a men's event and a women's event because that doubles the number of people who can enjoy competing for a top prize.

I don't think it makes sense without the health and safety or fairness reasons. Otherwise, if it's about representation, maybe we should have a white men's 100m...