Climate change - the POLITICAL debate (Vol 7)

[kerplunk]

robinessex said:

kerplunk said:

robinessex said:

kerplunk said:

turbobloke said:

but an atmosphere staying warm forever because the heat is trapped...absolute bill hooks and total nonscience.

But in a strange otherworldly thought experiment where the sun still shines, an atmosphere with more greenhouse gases in it will be warmer - and stay warmer.

It hasn't done that in 4.5 billion years, why should it do it from now on?

Are you saying the laws of thermo have changed over time?

You (deliberately) wandered off the original question. I'll ask again in case you've forgotten it. Will the planet's temperature change of a few degrees over 100 years be of any consequence?

That's a different thread

[Diderot]

ChevronB19 said:

turbobloke said:

Deep down, and after your reluctant acknowledgement some time back that the atmosphere simply cannot "trap" heat (if it did, a thought experiment in which the Sun is turned off, leads to frozen land surface and frozen oceans too as the planet cools slowly to the temperature of nearby space, but an atmosphere staying warm forever because the heat is trapped...absolute bill hooks and total nonscience...nobody is claiming that land or seas trap heat, that rubbish would be too obviously rubbish). The planet is an open system for energy. Heat is lost to space at a rate faster than models allow. This is what the data shows and it also explains how IPCC soothsaying is exaggerating warming, which is neither permanent not dangerous (data). I'm more convinced as time goes by that you appreciate agw is a total fir cup, but you're plugging away either for entertainment value or for political/ideological reasons. Not asking or accusingm just inferring, and that's all and you can always deny it

Sometimes (ok, all the time) I do feel that if someone disagrees with the consensus (which is fair enough), it would greatly help their case amongst others if they avoided the use of words such as ‘soothsaying’, ‘ideology’ and from your previous posts ‘indoctrination’ and ‘propoganda’.

It doesn’t exactly help the point you are trying to get over, and amongst a large amount of people it makes them automatically switch off.

You (politely) asked me my background, to which I answered, but I asked the same but haven’t had a response? Genuinely interested, and also think everyone should have an opinion, but it would be good to know where the basis of that opinion lies.

Of course it’s soothsaying, ideology, indoctrination and propaganda. It’s geo-politics, not science. It would also help if people who are sceptical of the shonky science were not labelled deniers. It would also help if public broadcasters like the BBC didn’t close down any debate, or rags like the Guardian didn’t use hyperbole - its writ large in their new editorial lexicon. Go and check.

You mentioned you studied the Eemian - temps were about 2 degrees warmer than today, and CO2 was about 228 ppm. What should that tell us?

[robinessex]

kerplunk said:

robinessex said:

kerplunk said:

turbobloke said:

but an atmosphere staying warm forever because the heat is trapped...absolute bill hooks and total nonscience.

But in a strange otherworldly thought experiment where the sun still shines, an atmosphere with more greenhouse gases in it will be warmer - and stay warmer.

It hasn't done that in 4.5 billion years, why should it do it from now on?

Are you saying the laws of thermo have changed over time?

To answer the question. CO2 and temperature don't seem to follow each other, do they?

[turbobloke]

kerplunk said:

robinessex said:

kerplunk said:

turbobloke said:

but an atmosphere staying warm forever because the heat is trapped...absolute bill hooks and total nonscience.

But in a strange otherworldly thought experiment where the sun still shines, an atmosphere with more greenhouse gases in it will be warmer - and stay warmer.

It hasn't done that in 4.5 billion years, why should it do it from now on?

Are you saying the laws of thermo have changed over time?

Were either of you on the relevant climate thread when agw supporters invented the law of thermos dynamics to demonstrate how a cooler object (the atmosphere) can heat a warmer one (the ground or oceans) rather than merely delay cooling? I think so. That's contrary to a law of thermodynamics. Energy transfers (heat, here) between a cooler object and a warmer one act to warm the cooler one and cool the warmer one.

They had ice heating a glass of water, and more besides. Absolute tosh. Then there was tractor kinetics, best forgotten as per thermos dynamics.

It won't do what kerplunk claims in any case, given that the basis for discussion was that heat - which originated from the Sun, isn't trapped - so the Sun is nothing new and doesn't need reinventing or re-introducing. The absence of the Sun is part of a thought experiment considering what happens to the heat it already supplied, to the entire planet, surface/atmosphere. Claiming that the surface traps heat would be contrary to everyday experience and fail, the ground cools rapidly on a cloudless night. We don't experience most of the troposphere so the bill hooks can pass by, but the atmosphere can't trap heat either - the planet is an open system for energy. Heat in the atmosphere will continue, as ever, to escape into space, it can be delayed but not trapped. The point of the thought experiment being to show exactly that, namely, energy originally from the Sun isn't "trapped" in/by the atmosphere. If it escapes at any time, e.g. a cloudless night like the ground - it's not trapped. QED. If heat from the Sun is absent we all die anyway.

Edited by turbobloke on Thursday 6th April 18:22

[dickymint]

kerplunk said:

turbobloke said:

but an atmosphere staying warm forever because the heat is trapped...absolute bill hooks and total nonscience.

But in a strange otherworldly thought experiment where the sun still shines, an atmosphere with more greenhouse gases in it will be warmer - and stay warmer.

So we're back to ye old it works in a test tube theory

Edit: Found a newer one (2020) from The Royal Sorcery ..................

https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rso...


Loving the comments

Edited by dickymint on Thursday 6th April 19:33

[turbobloke]

dickymint said:

kerplunk said:

turbobloke said:

but an atmosphere staying warm forever because the heat is trapped...absolute bill hooks and total nonscience.

But in a strange otherworldly thought experiment where the sun still shines, an atmosphere with more greenhouse gases in it will be warmer - and stay warmer.

So we're back to ye old it works in a test tube theory

Edit: Found a newer one (2020) from The Royal Sorcery ..................

https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rso...

Loving the comments

It's quite a surprise to see this on a Royal Sorcery webpage. Did they let the YTS trainee loose too soon?
Politicians would lap it up, activists too. Hang on, they already have.
Comments are indeed taking the pithy approach.
We've gone from thermos dynamics and tractor kinetics to balloon modelling. Priceless. None of it worth a pixel in the wind.

[Diderot]

turbobloke said:

dickymint said:

kerplunk said:

turbobloke said:

but an atmosphere staying warm forever because the heat is trapped...absolute bill hooks and total nonscience.

But in a strange otherworldly thought experiment where the sun still shines, an atmosphere with more greenhouse gases in it will be warmer - and stay warmer.

So we're back to ye old it works in a test tube theory

Edit: Found a newer one (2020) from The Royal Sorcery ..................

https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rso...

Loving the comments

It's quite a surprise to see this on a Royal Sorcery webpage. Did they let the YTS trainee loose too soon?
Politicians would lap it up, activists too. Hang on, they already have.
Comments are indeed taking the pithy approach.
We've gone from thermos dynamics and tractor kinetics to balloon modelling. Priceless. None of it worth a pixel in the wind.

desperation in the face of reality from the Royal Sorcery. If I were an external examiner of a PhD thesis that proffered such baseless claptrap, I would have called a halt to the Viva right at the beginning, in fact I probably
would have suggested o the chair that we cancelled it before hand so as not to waste anyone’s time. I have done that before as a Chair and external (not in this this discipline).

Why oh why do they not compel science students to study philosophy (and especially epistemology)? It would prevent all this claptrap from being even conceptualised let alone published and shonkily peer reviewed, and hoovered up by the terminally gullible.

How can anyone in their right mind compare a balloon to planet earth? This is all they have got and they are trying hard to force it down your necks. Remember chaps, it’s an emergency, blue lights are flashing. Time is running out. Planet earth is doomed because it’s going to be as warm as it was in the Medieval Warm Period, and the Cooler than the Roman Warm Period and even cooler still than the Minoan Warm Period. And let’s not forget the Eemian.

And yet, these so called scientists cannot predict their way out of a paper bag. Ever.

[turbobloke]

Diderot said:

turbobloke said:

dickymint said:

kerplunk said:

turbobloke said:

but an atmosphere staying warm forever because the heat is trapped...absolute bill hooks and total nonscience.

But in a strange otherworldly thought experiment where the sun still shines, an atmosphere with more greenhouse gases in it will be warmer - and stay warmer.

So we're back to ye old it works in a test tube theory

Edit: Found a newer one (2020) from The Royal Sorcery ..................

https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rso...

Loving the comments

It's quite a surprise to see this on a Royal Sorcery webpage. Did they let the YTS trainee loose too soon?
Politicians would lap it up, activists too. Hang on, they already have.
Comments are indeed taking the pithy approach.
We've gone from thermos dynamics and tractor kinetics to balloon modelling. Priceless. None of it worth a pixel in the wind.

desperation in the face of reality from the Royal Sorcery. If I were an external examiner of a PhD thesis that proffered such baseless claptrap, I would have called a halt to the Viva right at the beginning, in fact I probably
would have suggested o the chair that we cancelled it before hand so as not to waste anyone’s time. I have done that before as a Chair and external (not in this this discipline).

Why oh why do they not compel science students to study philosophy (and especially epistemology)? It would prevent all this claptrap from being even conceptualised let alone published and shonkily peer reviewed, and hoovered up by the terminally gullible.

How can anyone in their right mind compare a balloon to planet earth? This is all they have got and they are trying hard to force it down your necks. Remember chaps, it’s an emergency, blue lights are flashing. Time is running out. Planet earth is doomed because it’s going to be as warm as it was in the Medieval Warm Period, and the Cooler than the Roman Warm Period and even cooler still than the Minoan Warm Period. And let’s not forget the Eemian.

And yet, these so called scientists cannot predict their way out of a paper bag. Ever.

Heads it gets warmer.
Except for 2021 compared to 2020 in recent annual terms.
Also for The Pause which had tens of papers explaining it away before a spreadsheet made it disappear. Move along please.
And except for the cooling over 2 to 3 year timescales which has happened 8 or 9 times in the satellite era as shown in UAH LTT.

That link to Royal Sorcery could be further evidence of somebody being here for the beer. Great entertainment value.

[Vanden Saab]

dickymint said:

kerplunk said:

turbobloke said:

but an atmosphere staying warm forever because the heat is trapped...absolute bill hooks and total nonscience.

But in a strange otherworldly thought experiment where the sun still shines, an atmosphere with more greenhouse gases in it will be warmer - and stay warmer.

So we're back to ye old it works in a test tube theory

Edit: Found a newer one (2020) from The Royal Sorcery ..................

https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rso...


Loving the comments

Edited by dickymint on Thursday 6th April 19:33

Why is the heating element inside the balloon and what would happen if the heating was outside would the CO2 balloon heat up more slowly?

edited to add...

reviews said:

Associate Editor Comments to Author:
Thank you for your patience while the Editors sought reviewers for your paper. Regrettably, the
journal has had to approach an unusually large number of potential reviewers to secure sufficient
reports for the Editors to make an informed judgement on the paper.

Edited by Vanden Saab on Thursday 6th April 21:19

[kerplunk]

robinessex said:

kerplunk said:

robinessex said:

kerplunk said:

turbobloke said:

but an atmosphere staying warm forever because the heat is trapped...absolute bill hooks and total nonscience.

But in a strange otherworldly thought experiment where the sun still shines, an atmosphere with more greenhouse gases in it will be warmer - and stay warmer.

It hasn't done that in 4.5 billion years, why should it do it from now on?

Are you saying the laws of thermo have changed over time?

To answer the question. CO2 and temperature don't seem to follow each other, do they?

That's a question not an answer, only partly true, and not a challenge to what I said about the thermodynamics of CO2 in the atmosphere - the warming effect caused by the radiative properties of CO2 exists for as long as it remains in the atmosphere.

[turbobloke]

International climate politics news.

Telegram said:

The current Forsa survey on the subject of the transition to green energies gives the German government a catastrophic report card. Almost 90 percent of Germans no longer believe in the so-called energy transition – a historically low figure. In a similar survey in 2011, almost 40 percent still hoped for its success.

The figure is 88%

It's got political ramifications...that is, a new paper in Geophysical Research Letters with which agw supporters will already be familiar. It shows that ozone-depleting substances have played a much larger role in climate change than many previously thought. This finding will require a reassessment of carbon dioxide’s role (stolen thunder) which in turn will require revisions to current climate models which drive UK climate policy - and to future predictions of global and regional temperature changes, especially in the Arctic. Don't hold your breath.

Why Net Zero Britain is suffering from some of Europe’s highest energy bills
The Daily Telegraph, 6 April 2023

Seize property to build wind and solar farms, says JP Morgan chief
The Daily Telegraph, 4 April 2023

Power showers could be banned
The Daily Telegraph, 4 April 2023

Heat pumps too expensive to meet Net Zero target
The Daily Telegraph, 4 April 2023

Britain's Net Zero strategy likely to fail, Ministers are warned
The Times, 4 April 2023
(NSS)

[kerplunk]

turbobloke said:

Were either of you on the relevant climate thread when agw supporters invented the law of thermos dynamics to demonstrate how a cooler object (the atmosphere) can heat a warmer one (the ground or oceans) rather than merely delay cooling? I think so. That's contrary to a law of thermodynamics. Energy transfers (heat, here) between a cooler object and a warmer one act to warm the cooler one and cool the warmer one.

They had ice heating a glass of water, and more besides. Absolute tosh. Then there was tractor kinetics, best forgotten as per thermos dynamics.

Of course I was there and remember it well - unlike yourself. It was when you hopped aboard the 'skydragon-slayer' bus and their greenhouse effect theory breaks the 2nd law of thermo nonsense. Whatever happened to those dragonslayer nuts? Oh there's one still here by the looks...

I was flabbergasted that you couldn't see the difference made by the earth's surface having a 'power source' and you persisted even when a hotplate thought experiment was introduced until the penny finally dropped and you laughably declared you were talking about a hotplate that wasn't switched on!

Brilliant stuff. I'll try and find it when I have time

[dickymint]

kerplunk said:

turbobloke said:

Were either of you on the relevant climate thread when agw supporters invented the law of thermos dynamics to demonstrate how a cooler object (the atmosphere) can heat a warmer one (the ground or oceans) rather than merely delay cooling? I think so. That's contrary to a law of thermodynamics. Energy transfers (heat, here) between a cooler object and a warmer one act to warm the cooler one and cool the warmer one.

They had ice heating a glass of water, and more besides. Absolute tosh. Then there was tractor kinetics, best forgotten as per thermos dynamics.

Of course I was there and remember it well - unlike yourself. It was when you hopped aboard the 'skydragon-slayer' bus and their greenhouse effect theory breaks the 2nd law of thermo nonsense. Whatever happened to those dragonslayer nuts? Oh there's one still here by the looks...

I was flabbergasted that you couldn't see the difference made by the earth's surface having a 'power source' and you persisted even when a hotplate thought experiment was introduced until the penny finally dropped and you laughably declared you were talking about a hotplate that wasn't switched on!

Brilliant stuff. I'll try and find it when I have time

While you're looking see if you find Ludo

[turbobloke]

dickymint said:

kerplunk said:

turbobloke said:

Were either of you on the relevant climate thread when agw supporters invented the law of thermos dynamics to demonstrate how a cooler object (the atmosphere) can heat a warmer one (the ground or oceans) rather than merely delay cooling? I think so. That's contrary to a law of thermodynamics. Energy transfers (heat, here) between a cooler object and a warmer one act to warm the cooler one and cool the warmer one.

They had ice heating a glass of water, and more besides. Absolute tosh. Then there was tractor kinetics, best forgotten as per thermos dynamics.

Of course I was there and remember it well - unlike yourself. It was when you hopped aboard the 'skydragon-slayer' bus and their greenhouse effect theory breaks the 2nd law of thermo nonsense. Whatever happened to those dragonslayer nuts? Oh there's one still here by the looks...

I was flabbergasted that you couldn't see the difference made by the earth's surface having a 'power source' and you persisted even when a hotplate thought experiment was introduced until the penny finally dropped and you laughably declared you were talking about a hotplate that wasn't switched on!

Brilliant stuff. I'll try and find it when I have time

While you're looking see if you find Ludo

We never had a mousetrap, shame.

[Diderot]

Vanden Saab said:

dickymint said:

kerplunk said:

turbobloke said:

but an atmosphere staying warm forever because the heat is trapped...absolute bill hooks and total nonscience.

But in a strange otherworldly thought experiment where the sun still shines, an atmosphere with more greenhouse gases in it will be warmer - and stay warmer.

So we're back to ye old it works in a test tube theory

Edit: Found a newer one (2020) from The Royal Sorcery ..................

https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rso...


Loving the comments

Edited by dickymint on Thursday 6th April 19:33

Why is the heating element inside the balloon and what would happen if the heating was outside would the CO2 balloon heat up more slowly?

edited to add...

reviews said:

Associate Editor Comments to Author:
Thank you for your patience while the Editors sought reviewers for your paper. Regrettably, the
journal has had to approach an unusually large number of potential reviewers to secure sufficient
reports for the Editors to make an informed judgement on the paper.

Edited by Vanden Saab on Thursday 6th April 21:19

What you mean like that big fkng hot fiery ball called the Sun with his hat on in the sky 93 million miles away? Very good question. It’s that trace plant food gas what done it, even when it didn’t in the past. But it’s just super energised and powerful now, because climate emergency. Eemian man should be along any minute to confirm.

Have you got a link to that Associate Editor’s note? If it’s genuine, then have 3 of these

Edited by Diderot on Thursday 6th April 23:12

[Diderot]

turbobloke said:

dickymint said:

kerplunk said:

turbobloke said:

Were either of you on the relevant climate thread when agw supporters invented the law of thermos dynamics to demonstrate how a cooler object (the atmosphere) can heat a warmer one (the ground or oceans) rather than merely delay cooling? I think so. That's contrary to a law of thermodynamics. Energy transfers (heat, here) between a cooler object and a warmer one act to warm the cooler one and cool the warmer one.

They had ice heating a glass of water, and more besides. Absolute tosh. Then there was tractor kinetics, best forgotten as per thermos dynamics.

Of course I was there and remember it well - unlike yourself. It was when you hopped aboard the 'skydragon-slayer' bus and their greenhouse effect theory breaks the 2nd law of thermo nonsense. Whatever happened to those dragonslayer nuts? Oh there's one still here by the looks...

I was flabbergasted that you couldn't see the difference made by the earth's surface having a 'power source' and you persisted even when a hotplate thought experiment was introduced until the penny finally dropped and you laughably declared you were talking about a hotplate that wasn't switched on!

Brilliant stuff. I'll try and find it when I have time

While you're looking see if you find Ludo

We never had a mousetrap, shame.

Ludo - blimey that brings back memories of Monte Carlo and casino stats.

[turbobloke]

Diderot said:

turbobloke said:

dickymint said:

kerplunk said:

turbobloke said:

Were either of you on the relevant climate thread when agw supporters invented the law of thermos dynamics to demonstrate how a cooler object (the atmosphere) can heat a warmer one (the ground or oceans) rather than merely delay cooling? I think so. That's contrary to a law of thermodynamics. Energy transfers (heat, here) between a cooler object and a warmer one act to warm the cooler one and cool the warmer one.

They had ice heating a glass of water, and more besides. Absolute tosh. Then there was tractor kinetics, best forgotten as per thermos dynamics.

Of course I was there and remember it well - unlike yourself. It was when you hopped aboard the 'skydragon-slayer' bus and their greenhouse effect theory breaks the 2nd law of thermo nonsense. Whatever happened to those dragonslayer nuts? Oh there's one still here by the looks...

I was flabbergasted that you couldn't see the difference made by the earth's surface having a 'power source' and you persisted even when a hotplate thought experiment was introduced until the penny finally dropped and you laughably declared you were talking about a hotplate that wasn't switched on!

Brilliant stuff. I'll try and find it when I have time

While you're looking see if you find Ludo

We never had a mousetrap, shame.

Ludo - blimey that brings back memories of Monte Carlo and casino stats.

Those were the days, it were all snow covered fields around 'ere, now the white stuff is a rare and exciting event

[Diderot]

turbobloke said:

Diderot said:

turbobloke said:

dickymint said:

kerplunk said:

turbobloke said:

Were either of you on the relevant climate thread when agw supporters invented the law of thermos dynamics to demonstrate how a cooler object (the atmosphere) can heat a warmer one (the ground or oceans) rather than merely delay cooling? I think so. That's contrary to a law of thermodynamics. Energy transfers (heat, here) between a cooler object and a warmer one act to warm the cooler one and cool the warmer one.

They had ice heating a glass of water, and more besides. Absolute tosh. Then there was tractor kinetics, best forgotten as per thermos dynamics.

Of course I was there and remember it well - unlike yourself. It was when you hopped aboard the 'skydragon-slayer' bus and their greenhouse effect theory breaks the 2nd law of thermo nonsense. Whatever happened to those dragonslayer nuts? Oh there's one still here by the looks...

I was flabbergasted that you couldn't see the difference made by the earth's surface having a 'power source' and you persisted even when a hotplate thought experiment was introduced until the penny finally dropped and you laughably declared you were talking about a hotplate that wasn't switched on!

Brilliant stuff. I'll try and find it when I have time

While you're looking see if you find Ludo

We never had a mousetrap, shame.

Ludo - blimey that brings back memories of Monte Carlo and casino stats.

Those were the days, it were all snow covered fields around 'ere, now the white stuff is a rare and exciting event

Indeed I’m surprised that anyone has experienced any Vinerism in living memory.

[Vanden Saab]

Diderot said:

Vanden Saab said:

dickymint said:

kerplunk said:

turbobloke said:

but an atmosphere staying warm forever because the heat is trapped...absolute bill hooks and total nonscience.

But in a strange otherworldly thought experiment where the sun still shines, an atmosphere with more greenhouse gases in it will be warmer - and stay warmer.

So we're back to ye old it works in a test tube theory

Edit: Found a newer one (2020) from The Royal Sorcery ..................

https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rso...


Loving the comments

Edited by dickymint on Thursday 6th April 19:33

Why is the heating element inside the balloon and what would happen if the heating was outside would the CO2 balloon heat up more slowly?

edited to add...

reviews said:

Associate Editor Comments to Author:
Thank you for your patience while the Editors sought reviewers for your paper. Regrettably, the
journal has had to approach an unusually large number of potential reviewers to secure sufficient
reports for the Editors to make an informed judgement on the paper.

Edited by Vanden Saab on Thursday 6th April 21:19

What you mean like that big fkng hot fiery ball called the Sun with his hat on in the sky 93 million miles away? Very good question. It’s that trace plant food gas what done it, even when it didn’t in the past. But it’s just super energised and powerful now, because climate emergency. Eemian man should be along any minute to confirm.

Have you got a link to that Associate Editor’s note? If it’s genuine, then have 3 of these

Edited by Diderot on Thursday 6th April 23:12

Go to Turbo's link and click on review history then click on the box underneath with the title of the paper on it download the pdf scroll down and giggle some more. .they actually revised the paper 4 times before it was accepted some of the reviews are funnier than the paper

[Ivan stewart]

Wonder if the sheep ( politicians and policy makers)
Are familiar with the fable of the emperors new clothes??
Asking for a friend!!!