Boris Johnson-Prime Minister (Vol 8)

[Electro1980]

blueg33 said:

Murph7355 said:

Electro1980 said:

That’s the case everywhere, including in government. This, however, isn’t about management approval or going outside budget. This is about ministerial approval for every job.

I've seen a number of private organisations do exactly the same (OK, not asking Government Ministers...but the top dog in the firm).

Always seemed like a sign that the management of the company either hadn't been given clear objectives and accountability, or couldn't be trusted with it. Neither being a good situation, but the solutions being different. The analogy applies to govt.

The chances of ministers having a single clue about what people their department needs to run are zero.

So it will fall to management to make a business case and tell the minister how efficient it will make his department look.

And then we fall in to the same trap I have seen a thousand times, when management doesn’t understand the business. It’s not the best business case that succeeds, but the person who is best at persuading and manipulating management.

[turbobloke]

768 said:

bhstewie said:

Murph leaping in to find reasons the Government messaging is clear and it's the media that has taken it out of context shocker.

"We aren't considering that."

It's a very simple one to put to bed.

Ha.

The media just struggle with clarity, they’ve never tried to sell anything. It’s all paid for by the well wishes of good people.

A grand advertisement for journalism. Possibly for ideological puppet string theory.

[blueg33]

Electro1980 said:

blueg33 said:

Murph7355 said:

Electro1980 said:

That’s the case everywhere, including in government. This, however, isn’t about management approval or going outside budget. This is about ministerial approval for every job.

I've seen a number of private organisations do exactly the same (OK, not asking Government Ministers...but the top dog in the firm).

Always seemed like a sign that the management of the company either hadn't been given clear objectives and accountability, or couldn't be trusted with it. Neither being a good situation, but the solutions being different. The analogy applies to govt.

The chances of ministers having a single clue about what people their department needs to run are zero.

So it will fall to management to make a business case and tell the minister how efficient it will make his department look.

And then we fall in to the same trap I have seen a thousand times, when management doesn’t understand the business. It’s not the best business case that succeeds, but the person who is best at persuading and manipulating management.

yep upwards management is a thing. But good management have their finger on the pulse and need to be trusted by those at the top (Ministers). Ministers will not have a clue about resource hence why them making the decisions on staffing is flawed.

Its a bit like my Group CEO, he is so far removed from my aspect of the business (I run a subsidiary of an international group, the Group has 80k employees), my monthly 2 page reports are cut to one para by the time its reaches the CEO. The key thing is that he knows he doesn't know the detail and trusts me to make the correct decisions. He wouldn't have a clue whether I need an additional project manager or an accountant.

[anonymous-user]

“First look at Kenneth Branagh as Boris Johnson in This England”

https://www.radiotimes.com/tv/drama/kenneth-branna...

[JeffreyD]

"Partygate" done and dusted with no further FPN by the look of it.

Dominic Cummings is going to be furious.

amongst others.

Looks like he lives to fight on.

[Electro1980]

Still the Sue Grey report to come.

And then we have the NIP/Brexit issue and the fact that the Tory party seems to be full of big mouthed, out of touch fools who keep saying stupid stuff on TV and radio.

[JeffreyD]

Electro1980 said:

Still the Sue Grey report to come.

And then we have the NIP/Brexit issue and the fact that the Tory party seems to be full of big mouthed, out of touch fools who keep saying stupid stuff on TV and radio.

Sue Grey not important now - police have looked and he's already apologised.

You and I might think he's a but it won't be enough to tip the MPs over the edge.

[Frik]

Yep. Predictions of him going by the end of the summer looking increasingly unlikely, too. Can't see anything changing for now, though the CoLC will continue to build pressure. As will the NI issue.

[GreatGranny]

JeffreyD said:

Sue Grey not important now - police have looked and he's already apologised.

You and I might think he's a but it won't be enough to tip the MPs over the edge.

Just because you don't think it's important (you sound like Ree-Mogg!) doesn't mean everybody feels the same way.

The only reason it's being delayed is it's pretty damning of Johnson and the Goverment, same as the Russian Report.

[JeffreyD]

GreatGranny said:

Just because you don't think it's important (you sound like Ree-Mogg!) doesn't mean everybody feels the same way.

The only reason it's being delayed is it's pretty damning of Johnson and the Goverment, same as the Russian Report.

I was posting from the point of view of Johnson supporters and tory MPs.

I think he's a liar and totally useless as a PM.

For the purposes of him remaining as PM until the next election it's only really the tory MPs that matter - anything else is noise

[cirian75]

News reporter "So the parties were illegal?"

The Met "Yes."

News reporter "And the people who attended did so illegally?"

The Met "Exactly."

News reporter "And they were fined?"

The Met "Yes."

News reporter "And Boris Johnson was at some of these parties?"

The Met "Yes."

News Reported "But you've only fined him for one?"

The Met "Yep"

News Reporter "You fined junior staff several times?"

The Met "yes"

[pghstochaj]

cirian75 said:

News reporter "So the parties were illegal?"

The Met "Yes."

News reporter "And the people who attended did so illegally?"

The Met "Exactly."

News reporter "And they were fined?"

The Met "Yes."

News reporter "And Boris Johnson was at some of these parties?"

The Met "Yes."

News Reported "But you've only fined him for one?"

The Met "Yep"

News Reporter "You fined junior staff several times?"

The Met "yes"

Exactly, I think the Sue Gray report will be an interesting read. If nothing else, Boris has completely failed to ensure rules have been followed under his watch. I suspect however that we will find out a lot more of his involvement even in events he was not fined for attending.

[bitchstewie]

And that's the takeaway here.

Slightly odd that the number of FPN's received were ever the bar here as it's not about criminality it's about honesty and integrity.

Johnson's apologists will be gloating thinking he's played a blinder and pretending it's all a fuss about cake whilst junior staff and Allegra Statton appear to have been thrown under the bus.

Sue Gray aside I'm not sure we've seen or heard the last of this especially if some of those staff are feeling a little pissed off right now.

[abzmike]

...and the small issue of the Commons Privileges Committee to determine whether lies were told to the HoC.

[Murph7355]

bhstewie said:

....
Johnson's apologists will be gloating thinking he's played a blinder and pretending it's all a fuss about cake whilst junior staff and Allegra Statton appear to have been thrown under the bus.
.... .

Maybe the junior staff actually attended more illegal gatherings than others? The reporter "quotes" above don't go near that detail...

As for Allegra, she threw herself under the bus. Head of comms being that fking stupid? Adios.

All it did was underscore Boris wouldn't know a good communicator if they gave him a birthday cake and pushed it in his face

[frisbee]

So why isn't he getting £10k fines for holding parties in his house? He can dress like a scruffy student and the police can stand around in a group bigger than the actual party they raided and "tut" at him, just like old times!

[bitchstewie]

Murph7355 said:

bhstewie said:

....
Johnson's apologists will be gloating thinking he's played a blinder and pretending it's all a fuss about cake whilst junior staff and Allegra Statton appear to have been thrown under the bus.
.... .

Maybe the junior staff actually attended more illegal gatherings than others? The reporter "quotes" above don't go near that detail...

As for Allegra, she threw herself under the bus. Head of comms being that fking stupid? Adios.

All it did was underscore Boris wouldn't know a good communicator if they gave him a birthday cake and pushed it in his face

Quite right too Murph.

Blame the juniors.

Blame Stratton.

Johnson should stay though because it's all fluff and it's definitely not the leaders fault.

[loafer123]

On a completely unrelated matter, does anyone know the right code for a popcorn smilie…?

[Ian Geary]

abzmike said:

...and the small issue of the Commons Privileges Committee to determine whether lies were told to the HoC.

Ahh, but is a lie a "lie" if you thought it was true at the time?

Ie: Boris "advisors told me it was kosher. After investigation it turned out not to be. But at the time I thought it was".

Similar in principle as that police officer killing someone he thought had a gun. It was actually a table leg. But because he thought it was a gun at the time, the death wasn't unlawful. (I have no bee in my bonnet about police- this was the first example to come to mind)


Ultimately, as someone has said: all that matters is the 1922 committee view. I think Boris will ride out any fuss about the Sue Grey report, and HoC "things being different than what he understood at the time*" will similarly be brushed away.

• Note: I think Boris knows damn well he lied. The issue is whether anyone can prove beyond doubt he lied, which they can't imo

[768]

In order to keep the baying mob happy and issue those fines to civil servants the Met alone spent… drumroll… £460k.

Well that was all worth it then.