CV19 - Cure Worse Than The Disease? (Vol 18)

[isaldiri]

JuanCarlosFandango said:

I think briefly in the 1990s we were in a pretty good place, where the collectivist ideologies of fascism and communism were defeated, religion was tamed and there was broad agreement on the idea of a mixed economy and a liberal society with a healthy will not to destroy the planet or suffocate ourselves.

You might be looking back in time with slightly rose tinted specs there I think......

[JuanCarlosFandango]

isaldiri said:

JuanCarlosFandango said:

I think briefly in the 1990s we were in a pretty good place, where the collectivist ideologies of fascism and communism were defeated, religion was tamed and there was broad agreement on the idea of a mixed economy and a liberal society with a healthy will not to destroy the planet or suffocate ourselves.

You might be looking back in time with slightly rose tinted specs there I think......

Well that's what happens when you get old.

Though it's less about nostalgia for the 90s themselves and more about the missed opportunity.

[RSTurboPaul]

Dr John Campbell discusses a Norwegian pre-print on the question:

Is there a Link between the 2021 COVID-19 Vaccination Uptake in Europe and 2022 Excess All-Cause Mortality?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyo2UNQcdpQ



https://www.preprints.org/manuscript/202302.0350/v...

Paper on 2021 injection uptake vs 2022 Excess ACM said:

Abstract

We primarily study a possible link between 2021 COVID-19 vaccination uptake in Europe and monthly 2022 excess all-cause mortality, i.e., mortality higher than before the pandemic.

Analyses of 31 countries weighted by population size show that all-cause mortality during the first nine months of 2022 increased more the higher the 2021 vaccination uptake; a one percentage point increase in 2021 vaccination uptake was associated with a monthly mortality increase in 2022 by 0.105 percent (95% CI, 0.075-0.134).

When controlling for alternative explanations, the association remained robust, and we discuss the result emphasizing causality as well as potential ecological fallacy.

Also, the study shows that 2021 all-cause mortality was lower the higher the vaccination uptake, but this association became non-significant when controlling for alternative explanations.

[Elysium]

Roman Rhodes said:

I almost admire your dog with a bone like tenacity on this but your attempts to steer the point I’m making towards your hysterical obsession with what the US rules are, rather than the specific treatment of Djokovic, is rather tedious.

You have claimed Djokovic is “being made an example of”, he is being “punished”. The US cannot “give in to a high profile ‘anti-vaxxer’ like Djokovic”, “there is no logical reason to deny entry to Djokovic”, “he is being punished because the state does not want to lose face”. Sorry, but you have clearly made the assertion that he is being treated differently.

Unfortunately, as with your assertion that the ‘conspiracy theory’ only exists in my imagination, it seems you have to be continually reminded of the facts.

Carry on bleating about the US rules if it makes you feel better. I’ll stick with my opinion that the evidence-free claims as to why Djokovic isn’t playing tennis in the US are conspiracy theories.

I have never said or implied that Djokovic was being treated differently to other unvaccinated people.

I have no idea why you think otherwise.

[Elysium]

J210 said:

You cant make this up. Full on gaslighting and trying to rewrite history

On one hand, I think this is simply appalling behaviour.

However, when even the extremists on Indie Sage are backtracking, it gives real comfort that we are finally coming to our senses.

[Douglas Quaid]

M1AGM said:

In other news BJ is back in the limelight in case anyone missed it. What I find fascinating is the constant ‘it wasn’t fair. i couldn’t do X whilst you were having a party, you broke the rules’, when the question should be ‘I wasn’t allowed to do X because you said covid was so serious we had to stay apart, yet you didn’t have those concerns for yourself and your work colleagues, why is that?’

Yes it is mindblowing that no one at all asks that.

[bodhi]

Douglas Quaid said:

M1AGM said:

In other news BJ is back in the limelight in case anyone missed it. What I find fascinating is the constant ‘it wasn’t fair. i couldn’t do X whilst you were having a party, you broke the rules’, when the question should be ‘I wasn’t allowed to do X because you said covid was so serious we had to stay apart, yet you didn’t have those concerns for yourself and your work colleagues, why is that?’

Yes it is mindblowing that no one at all asks that.

In fairness that question is getting raised a lot on Twitter, however the people raising it would probably be considered CTers so it hasn't really been picked up.

Must admit I'm struggling to get too worked up about it all. Boris getting a cake was reported in The Times at the time (June 2020) and no one seemed particularly bothered about it then, now it's all Grr Boris from the usual suspects.

One credit I will give Boris however is that he seems to have broken Alistair Campbell, who's been posting all sorts of unhinged guff about how bad it is to lie to parliament (lol), and even floated the conspiracy theory that Boris wasn't actually seriously ill in hospital.

https://twitter.com/campbellclaret/status/16384542...

I am of course sure that in amongst all the people calling him out on it we could find our resident anti-CTers, both from here and that other thread.

[anonymous-user]

Elysium said:

Roman Rhodes said:

I almost admire your dog with a bone like tenacity on this but your attempts to steer the point I’m making towards your hysterical obsession with what the US rules are, rather than the specific treatment of Djokovic, is rather tedious.

You have claimed Djokovic is “being made an example of”, he is being “punished”. The US cannot “give in to a high profile ‘anti-vaxxer’ like Djokovic”, “there is no logical reason to deny entry to Djokovic”, “he is being punished because the state does not want to lose face”. Sorry, but you have clearly made the assertion that he is being treated differently.

Unfortunately, as with your assertion that the ‘conspiracy theory’ only exists in my imagination, it seems you have to be continually reminded of the facts.

Carry on bleating about the US rules if it makes you feel better. I’ll stick with my opinion that the evidence-free claims as to why Djokovic isn’t playing tennis in the US are conspiracy theories.

I have never said or implied that Djokovic was being treated differently to other unvaccinated people.

I have no idea why you think otherwise.

Well, they say dogs are colour blind but I didn't know they thought black was white. Keep gnawing.

If you remember, this was addressed to you and I said it was a conspiracy theory:

grumbledoak said:

This isn't about virtue signalling, or blame, or the vaccine. It's about power and control. A famous person, he publicly refused to comply. Now he is being made an example of.

You then weighed in:

Elysium said:

PurplePangolin said:

It is you that has called it a conspiracy theory - quelle surprise

Some of the more antagonistic posters bring ‘conspiracy theory’ into discussions because it provides them with a way of insulting people they don’t agree with without openly breaking forum rules.

So, not only did you disagree that the original claim was a conspiracy theory you've continued to portray Djokovic as a specific martyr to the US rules.

You can keep wriggling but words have meanings and yours are there for all to see.

[bodhi]

Roman Rhodes said:

So, not only did you disagree that the original claim was a conspiracy theory you've continued to portray Djokovic as a specific martyr to the US rules.

You can keep wriggling but words have meanings and yours are there for all to see.

Small hint here - just because Elysium was disagreeing with you calling every man and his dog a conspiracy theorist doesn't mean he was agreeing with the point made.

Call it nuance, shades of grey etc, none of which are new concepts.

It does appear that suggesting any opinion you disagree with is a conspiracy theory is a new thing, mostly practiced by midwits who don't get the above concepts.

[anonymous-user]

bodhi said:

Roman Rhodes said:

So, not only did you disagree that the original claim was a conspiracy theory you've continued to portray Djokovic as a specific martyr to the US rules.

You can keep wriggling but words have meanings and yours are there for all to see.

Small hint here - just because Elysium was disagreeing with you calling every man and his dog a conspiracy theorist doesn't mean he was agreeing with the point made.

Call it nuance, shades of grey etc, none of which are new concepts.

It does appear that suggesting any opinion you disagree with is a conspiracy theory is a new thing, mostly practiced by midwits who don't get the above concepts.

If I may offer a small hint back: my comment about a conspiracy theory was directed at one specific post from one specific poster. If Elysium thinks I was "calling every man and his dog a conspiracy theorist" he is incorrect. Perhaps your recollection is wrong? No need for claims of victim status in this particular instance.

[bodhi]

Roman Rhodes said:

If I may offer a small hint back: my comment about a conspiracy theory was directed at one specific post from one specific poster. If Elysium thinks I was "calling every man and his dog a conspiracy theorist" he is incorrect. Perhaps your recollection is wrong? No need for claims of victim status in this particular instance.

I was basing my comment on the evidence you provided as part of your post - and it doesn't say what you seem to think it says. I could scroll back a few pages, but considering your post was an attempt at a "mic drop" I was more than happy to point out what a piss poor attempt it was.

[anonymous-user]

bodhi said:

Roman Rhodes said:

If I may offer a small hint back: my comment about a conspiracy theory was directed at one specific post from one specific poster. If Elysium thinks I was "calling every man and his dog a conspiracy theorist" he is incorrect. Perhaps your recollection is wrong? No need for claims of victim status in this particular instance.

I was basing my comment on the evidence you provided as part of your post - and it doesn't say what you seem to think it says. I could scroll back a few pages, but considering your post was an attempt at a "mic drop" I was more than happy to point out what a piss poor attempt it was.

"mic drop" - really?! Should I now be accusing you of being a conspiracy theorist to keep you happy? Perhaps I should have just been a bit more blunt and suggested what you do with your misguided "hint".

Quite odd that the person making the claim of conspiracy hasn't commented but multiple others have got offended on his/her behalf and piled in. Oh well, keeps the thread going I suppose.

[bodhi]

Roman Rhodes said:

"mic drop" - really?! Should I now be accusing you of being a conspiracy theorist to keep you happy? Perhaps I should have just been a bit more blunt and suggested what you do with your misguided "hint".

Quite odd that the person making the claim of conspiracy hasn't commented but multiple others have got offended on his/her behalf and piled in. Oh well, keeps the thread going I suppose.

Yes that's the entire reason you're being called out - to keep the thread going. Nothing to do with the fact you keep sharing your word salad with us, but entirely to keep the thread going.

You got us I guess!

However it's incredibly interesting with your hatred of conspiracy theories, you seem quite quiet on the Campbell tweet I shared earlier - which I'm sure you would if you were engaging in good faith.

[Vanden Saab]

Did anyone notice what Rishi said at todays PMQs?
I thought I was hearing things but he said that if someone had been injured as a result of the vaccine they could take the manufacturer to court for damages...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=833qCRqNJMI
from 32:40...

[cliffe_mafia]

bodhi said:

One credit I will give Boris however is that he seems to have broken Alistair Campbell, who's been posting all sorts of unhinged guff about how bad it is to lie to parliament (lol), and even floated the conspiracy theory that Boris wasn't actually seriously ill in hospital.
.

I wouldn’t be surprised if he was at death’s door and was miraculously cured by horse dewormer

I guess we’ll have to wait until his book comes out or one of the nurses breaks their NDA.

[Grumps.]

RSTurboPaul said:

That thumbnail!

[isaldiri]

Article in the telegraph that I think makes a pretty accurate observation I think.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/03/22/nobody...

In particular this

""Public readiness to allow so many basic functions of life – worship, exercise, social interaction – to be dismissed as “non-essential” suggests an inability to bear ordinary risks once inseparable from existence; expectations of a level of “security” unthinkable to previous generations. Even if we never lock down in precisely the same way again, a Rubicon has still been crossed.

So we didn’t finish stronger or more united, we simply ended up with the cold truth that, for many of us, things we claim to value – freedom, the next generation, prosperity, mental wellbeing didn’t really matter that much – at least not enough to fight for. When that becomes clear, there is little left for a society to coalesce around. All that remains are the fragments of those past illusions.""

[Jasandjules]

isaldiri said:

So we didn’t finish stronger or more united, we simply ended up with the cold truth that, for many of us, things we claim to value – freedom, the next generation, prosperity, mental wellbeing didn’t really matter that much – at least not enough to fight for. When that becomes clear, there is little left for a society to coalesce around. All that remains are the fragments of those past illusions.""

It was very clear to me - stupid people are easily fooled and controlled. Tell them it is for their own safety and they will happily demand and celebrate the deaths of those who you say are breaking the rules.

When I was young I struggled to understand how the Germans managed to do what they did (I know, bring WWII into it), yet this showed me quite clearly how easily the sheep are culled and controlled. I still recall watching people in supermarkets and watching people jump out of the way walking in open air. All logic and reason flew away and so many just did not seem to see it. Even when the Govt were blatantly ignoring all the rules and partying whilst the public could not attend funerals or hospitals to be with their loved ones etc.

[johnboy1975]

cliffe_mafia said:

bodhi said:

One credit I will give Boris however is that he seems to have broken Alistair Campbell, who's been posting all sorts of unhinged guff about how bad it is to lie to parliament (lol), and even floated the conspiracy theory that Boris wasn't actually seriously ill in hospital.
.

I wouldn’t be surprised if he was at death’s door and was miraculously cured by horse dewormer

I guess we’ll have to wait until his book comes out or one of the nurses breaks their NDA.

Marcus Ball investigates...(old thread)

https://twitter.com/MarcusJBall/status/15338040699...

Only given 4 litres of oxygen per minute - minimum threshold for ICU is normally 15 litres.

https://twitter.com/MarcusJBall/status/15338042763...

Although no problem with them going "above and beyond" for our beloved PM. But, as the rest of his thread details, close to death he was not. Or was. If he was, he sure made a fast recovery, with no signs of breathing difficulty immediately after release and back to work via zoom the next day after his little holiday / brush with death.

Some people think he's a serial liar. The same people lapped it up that he was "close to death"

I'll let someone else administer the TL:dr

https://twitter.com/Magdadefiant/status/1638257026...

said:

No of course no. No one ever “nearly died” from Covid, but could leave hospital after 5 days without requiring ventilation. Utter nonsense and a cynical and wicked lie.]/quote]

But pinning a lie on a Johnson is quite tricky. As seen by a stellar defence in parliament today regarding misleading the house. He was very good. At times I almost believed him

[TheJimi]

Jasandjules said:

isaldiri said:

So we didn’t finish stronger or more united, we simply ended up with the cold truth that, for many of us, things we claim to value – freedom, the next generation, prosperity, mental wellbeing didn’t really matter that much – at least not enough to fight for. When that becomes clear, there is little left for a society to coalesce around. All that remains are the fragments of those past illusions.""

It was very clear to me - stupid people are easily fooled and controlled. Tell them it is for their own safety and they will happily demand and celebrate the deaths of those who you say are breaking the rules.

When I was young I struggled to understand how the Germans managed to do what they did (I know, bring WWII into it), yet this showed me quite clearly how easily the sheep are culled and controlled. I still recall watching people in supermarkets and watching people jump out of the way walking in open air. All logic and reason flew away and so many just did not seem to see it. Even when the Govt were blatantly ignoring all the rules and partying whilst the public could not attend funerals or hospitals to be with their loved ones etc.

Back in late 2020 (I think - may have been early '21) I wrote the following post in this thread, in response to comparisons that were being drawn with Nazi Germany and the ensuing arguments.

I said:

Ok, let's leave emotions out of this, and just focus on the parallels being drawn. Firstly, I’ll qualify - I’m not a covid denier. I do, however, believe that lockdown is a very blunt instrument, and in the fullness of time, I fully expect it to be shown to have been colossally damaging.

Ok, so going back to those parallels.

Germany didn't become Nazi Germany overnight, it was a slow morph, brought on by gradual changes, which a lot of Germans went along with, for a host of reasons, not least, government propaganda. Some of which was the most sophisticated of it’s time.

Now, I personally disagree with some of the more overt parallels being drawn, but equally, it’s not for the first time, that I’ve looked at our current situation, and off the back of that, more easily understood what happened in Germany.

This is not to say that I think our government are fascists, rather, it’s an observation of how powerful government messaging, nudge-science, and propaganda can be.

Make no mistake about it, there absolutely HAS been government propaganda throughout this. You can argue ‘till the cows come home, the idea of that messaging being borne of good intentions, but on a basic level, the government has created an environment where people are openly accepting conditions and restrictions of basic freedoms, that, 82 years ago, people died to protect.  Many, many people aren't questioning things; they're simply accepting fundamental freedoms being taken away from them, essentially because the government knows best.

So when one ponders the question -

"How did normal Germans allow their country to become Nazi Germany?"

The answer is a complicated one, but equally, it’s not hard to see, based on the events of the past year, just how easily a government can control a narrative, especially if there’s a healthy dose of fear thrown into the mix.

So for me, it’s less about Nazism, and more an observation of how easily a government can bend a population to it’s will, with the right messaging and conditions.