Russia invades Ukraine. Volume 2

[eccles]

Hugo Stiglitz said:

The UK has been in some form of war for 30 years.

The UK defence industry must love it.

To quote Ocean Colour Scene, "But there's no profit in peace".

[Mannginger]

eccles said:

To quote Ocean Colour Scene, "But there's no profit in peace".

Oh jeez, thanks for the blast from the past reminder!

[anonymous-user]

vonuber said:

Is this the end of the tank - good chat from the tank museum:



Well worth a visit if you haven't been, especially if you get to see this up and running:

Thanks for sharing.

Bovington is just up the road from me, definitely worth a visit if you haven't been.

The Tiger is a monster! When they display it, it makes you realise how terrifying it must have been just to hear one coming down the road in WWII

ETA he wasn't cranking the engine, I doubt that's possible for one man but the internal starter.

Edited by anonymous-user on Saturday 21st May 16:23

Edited by anonymous-user on Saturday 21st May 16:24

[Tartan Pixie]

digimeistter said:

Thanks for sharing.

Bovington is just up the road from me, definitely worth a visit if you haven't been.

The Tiger is a monster! When they display it, it makes you realise how terrifying it must have been just to hear one coming down the road in WWII

ETA he wasn't cranking the engine, I doubt that's possible for one man but the internal starter.

How does that work? Are you building up some kind of potential energy (a spring?) to crank the starter?

I've crank started a car before and can only imagine the size of the man needed to do that for a tiger.

[xeny]

You're spinning up a flywheel which I'd guess is then clutched in to turn the engine over. Listening closely to the video here https://www.warhistoryonline.com/whotube-2/tigerha... , I'm not sure if it's possible to hear the flywheel gradually spinning up as a faint whine as the cranking slowly gets faster.

[FiF]

Tartan Pixie said:

digimeistter said:

Thanks for sharing.

Bovington is just up the road from me, definitely worth a visit if you haven't been.

The Tiger is a monster! When they display it, it makes you realise how terrifying it must have been just to hear one coming down the road in WWII

ETA he wasn't cranking the engine, I doubt that's possible for one man but the internal starter.

How does that work? Are you building up some kind of potential energy (a spring?) to crank the starter?

I've crank started a car before and can only imagine the size of the man needed to do that for a tiger.

I thought he was cranking up something like a big heavy flywheel so when he'd got it going fast enough there would be sufficient stored rotational energy to turn the engine proper over.

[vonuber]

FiF said:

I thought he was cranking up something like a big heavy flywheel so when he'd got it going fast enough there would be sufficient stored rotational energy to turn the engine proper over.

Yes that's exactly what it is. They also had electric starters, but this was the preferred way of doing it if you could.

[Mark A S]

Its an inertia starter, clever bit of kit saves battery drain on the electric starter. Wind it up, then when enough inertia built up, pull the handle out and push in a pin to engage it to the flywheel.

[Tartan Pixie]

xeny said:

You're spinning up a flywheel which I'd guess is then clutched in to turn the engine over. Listening closely to the video here https://www.warhistoryonline.com/whotube-2/tigerha... , I'm not sure if it's possible to hear the flywheel gradually spinning up as a faint whine as the cranking slowly gets faster.

Thanks all, for those who didn't click xeny's link here's the relevant line:

"The inertia starter ” Schwungmasse ” works by rotating a heavy mass at speed, once it reaches 60rpm a lever is pulled below the hand cranking arm, this pushes the drive pinion onto the fly wheel, making the engine rotate and start."

[pingu393]

Tartan Pixie said:

BikeBikeBIke said:

pquinn said:

Not sure it's a great advert for your military to take that long to capture a small isolated city, and then only by bombing it flat. First order thinkers.

Has the rest of the war deteriorated into a slow grind? Any progress either way? All seems a bit quiet news wise.

According to Speak the Truth's channel, 7 miles progress for Russia in places recently.

AFAIC quite bad news for Ukraine but strategically changes nothing.

According to the War In Ukraine channel whoever's in charge in Popasna is using a large amount of light infantry, there's VDV (airborne), Wagner mercenaries and 40th naval battalion supported by at least one BTG. So it's infantry finding the weak spots and tanks backing them up rather than BTG's trying to brute force their way down main roads.

(BTG = Battalion Tactical Group = Standard Russian formation consisting of armoured and mechanised infantry brigades.)

A notable thing on the map is that the advances aren't following major routes, but instead are flanking round to weak spots and forcing the Ukrainians to retreat:



I assume most folk already know the channels we're talking about but here's the links anyway.

War in Ukraine: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCP2QApi8G2TKc8NZm...
Speak the Truth: https://www.youtube.com/c/SpeakTheTruth1

My fear is that the Russians are becoming competent. Attack on both flanks and push far enough for the left flank to turn right and the right to turn left, thus encircling the defenders. Watch the film Zulu (or it may be Zulu Dawn) - "horns of the buffalo".

[Bigends]

Tom Logan said:

Tartan Pixie said:

Thanks all, for those who didn't click xeny's link here's the relevant line:

"The inertia starter ” Schwungmasse ” works by rotating a heavy mass at speed, once it reaches 60rpm a lever is pulled below the hand cranking arm, this pushes the drive pinion onto the fly wheel, making the engine rotate and start."

Also used on old compressors, wind it up and release the pinion to engage with the flywheel.

Saves a battery and starter motor.

Also used o some aircraft - think the Stuka had one.

[raftom]

pingu393 said:

My fear is that the Russians are becoming competent.

Yesterday: Russians showing off their 240mm self-propelled heavy mortar near Severodonetsk

https://twitter.com/666_mancer/status/152774270280...

Today: Geolocated 240mm self-propelled heavy mortar is no longer

https://twitter.com/UAWeapons/status/1528046054150...

[anonymous-user]

vonuber said:

FiF said:

I thought he was cranking up something like a big heavy flywheel so when he'd got it going fast enough there would be sufficient stored rotational energy to turn the engine proper over.

Yes that's exactly what it is. They also had electric starters, but this was the preferred way of doing it if you could.

It was pretty much both, the starter was also a dynamo, which powered the electrical system enough to start the engine

[anonymous-user]

raftom said:

Yesterday: Russians showing off their 240mm self-propelled heavy mortar near Severodonetsk

https://twitter.com/666_mancer/status/152774270280...

Today: Geolocated 240mm self-propelled heavy mortar is no longer

https://twitter.com/UAWeapons/status/1528046054150...

Oh that's beautiful. I love how they just bury the reporter for giving the location away. On the one hand they should have probably kept quiet about how they found it and hope that the Russian media keeps making stupid mistakes, on the other it's quite satisfying knowing that the journalists probably got fragged by their own side for it.

[giveitfish]

To be fair, the thing is self propelled - surely it should have moved as soon as it had finished it's barrage, not sat there waiting for return fire?

[raftom]

Yes but they moved it something like 150m. Easy to find with a drone.

[FourWheelDrift]

How sanctions are effecting Russia - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vQgx28vNsg

Usually very very busy Moscow shopping centre, closed stores, high prices and the Russian guy reckons only about 2 in every 10 people are Russians.

Russian and Australian vloggers.

[Tartan Pixie]

BikeBikeBIke said:

According to Speak the Truth's channel, 7 miles progress for Russia in places recently.

AFAIC quite bad news for Ukraine but strategically changes nothing.

I think it's too early to say how significant the breakthrough around Popasna is. Strategically it may not mean much in itself but if Russia can exploit the breakthrough and show some success on the battlefield it could change public perception of the war and give Putin the win he needs to mobilise more troops. In the unlikely event Ukraine can counter it they will have frankly pulled off the impossible and go up another notch in global estimation.

Another thing is that Ukraine have now shown that their tactics are weak against light infantry, something that every Russian commander will be taking note of. Ukrainian doctrine is specifically designed to resist a Russian invasion, but now that a Russian commander has innovated their tactics Ukraine needs to innovate in turn.

<><><>

Something you see a lot in chess, strategy computer games and tabletop wargaming is three distinct phases to a match. The initial positioning phase where a front line is established, force is met with force and an uneasy equilibrium holds for a short while, at some point one player demonstrates a weakness and the match moves to phase two, the bloodbath. Reserves are committed and whatever was set up in the first phase plays out, players have little ability to change the strategic situation so tactical ability is everything, you have to out fight your opponent. The results of phase two determines phase three where whoever is left with an extra rook, bishop or squad of stormboyz has the advantage. In a long match the three phases can play out multiple times.

I know that games don't = the real world but strategy doesn't change much through the ages. IMO the Popasna breakthrough is that initial break at the end of the first positional phase, the troops are in place, logistics are where they are, each side has limited reserves to commit and it's going to be a bloodbath (<- That unhappy smiley doesn't come close to the pit in my stomach when describing my thoughts)

For all that the Severodonetsk salient looks unimportant on a map the result of this fight is going to determine the rest of the war, not because of any strategic importance but because so many troops are committed (plus reserves likely to be committed) that the balance of power for the next phase is going to be decided in this one salient.

There is frankly zero chance that Ukraine can hold the Severodonetsk salient but if Ukrainian forces can fail gracefully then they can survive and fall back in good order or be surrounded to help others survive, a decision I would not like to take. Meanwhile the Russians will hopefully bleed for every kilometre they gain, that is what I hope for because that is what Ukraine needs to do, win the tactical battle.

Honestly my heart is in my mouth looking at the current map because Ukraine has to play its best chess and the west is not doing enough. Until the numbers of bayraktars and switchblades are equal to the thousands of Russian artillery pieces we are not doing enough.

<><><>

This post was written while wearing a large hat, enough gold braid to make Elton John look restrained and sat in a comfortable chair. Despite such failings I still wish to say... Salva Ukraine!

[Tartan Pixie]

El stovey said:

BikeBikeBIke said:

Missiles were crewed by Russian Soldiers.

Must be a tough gig doing that!

Quoting because the cartoon image made me smile

Given how awesome Japanese people are I will avoid the temptation to make any obvious jokes.

[sisu]

But this is not a game. This is not world of Tanks, it is reality. The Russians have 50% of their military in this area. They have a physical advantage of numbers. But it is the coordination that they lack. We have seen how dependent they are on fuel and if they let them advance and take out fuel tankers, then you get a free tank.