Russia invades Ukraine. Volume 2
Discussion
FiF said:
hidetheelephants said:
Tartan Pixie said:
Are you folk Dutch or something?
The next proper barrier is the Kazenyi Torets river. I know I shouldn't expect much from folk who call their ups downs but really these aren't hills.
Give over, the dutch dream of hills this big; these rival the South Downs in their immensity. The next proper barrier is the Kazenyi Torets river. I know I shouldn't expect much from folk who call their ups downs but really these aren't hills.
Elevation is king, even if it's only 300'; similar elevations are found around Falaise where some germans held up the allies for two weeks a while back.https://twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1528116...
Still trying to cross that river, with no success. Ukraine claiming another BTG destroyed trying to cross.
Still trying to cross that river, with no success. Ukraine claiming another BTG destroyed trying to cross.
Tartan Pixie said:
Really want to reply to sisu but have spent hours writing then deleting my posts because I can not put in to words what I want to say and the following is not even close to what I want to say:
Experience of war is not experience of understanding war. I could talk about PTSD and the difficulty of public spaces, a bus, a train station or an ability to recognise people by the parts of them that would be identifiable only after they'd been burned to a crisp.
f
k this st.
The importance of gaming scenarios is as important as it's ever been, there's no other way to see the bigger picture when you're stuck on the ground.
When I wargame please understand that I do not come from a position of innocence. I cannot say what I want to say other than that I am very angry, not at Russia, not at the Russian people but at the controlling forces. You want to be a tsar? You die like a Tsar.
<><><>
It's Saturday night / Sunday morning, might have had a dram. Please ignore as appropriate.
I’ve read as much in here by what you did say as what you didn’t. Thank you for sharing.Experience of war is not experience of understanding war. I could talk about PTSD and the difficulty of public spaces, a bus, a train station or an ability to recognise people by the parts of them that would be identifiable only after they'd been burned to a crisp.
f
k this st.The importance of gaming scenarios is as important as it's ever been, there's no other way to see the bigger picture when you're stuck on the ground.
When I wargame please understand that I do not come from a position of innocence. I cannot say what I want to say other than that I am very angry, not at Russia, not at the Russian people but at the controlling forces. You want to be a tsar? You die like a Tsar.
<><><>
It's Saturday night / Sunday morning, might have had a dram. Please ignore as appropriate.
sisu said:
Look, while I get the 30,000ft view idea of gaming applying to this conflict. In much the same way as online gambling gives you scenarios and solutions. The point I was making is that games and online gambling are designed to be logical and built with a structure of making the user achieve something as it is a business.
Someone else has decided the sequence and even with peer to peer, dedicated servers there is a formula to make it profitable.
There is no rest and rehabilitation feature of a wargames of your troops or any mental aspects to deal with as time goes on. In the same way cars don't need servicing, wear out or break down in Forza its a perfect world with imperfections built in.
I think you're confusing wargaming games vs military war games. Someone else has decided the sequence and even with peer to peer, dedicated servers there is a formula to make it profitable.
There is no rest and rehabilitation feature of a wargames of your troops or any mental aspects to deal with as time goes on. In the same way cars don't need servicing, wear out or break down in Forza its a perfect world with imperfections built in.
All the stuff you're talking about (and much much more) is specifically thought about as that's often what makes the difference.
In fact a lot of time is specifically on modelling f
k-ups and unplanned events. They're specifically designed to develop the necessary psychological bricolage to still win after you've been punched in the face (with thanks to Mike Tyson)
NRS said:
The maps showing the topography are kinda useless as is - no scale both for distance and height. Those clear high my differences could just be a few meters over many km, meaning very little in the real world. Or they could be a lot more significant. But without scales it’s impossible to say.
It's not the Alps, but there's a lot of landscape here. The site the map's from is pretty neat.
Area around Caen/Falaise for comparison.
NRS said:
FiF said:
hidetheelephants said:
Tartan Pixie said:
Are you folk Dutch or something?
The next proper barrier is the Kazenyi Torets river. I know I shouldn't expect much from folk who call their ups downs but really these aren't hills.
Give over, the dutch dream of hills this big; these rival the South Downs in their immensity. The next proper barrier is the Kazenyi Torets river. I know I shouldn't expect much from folk who call their ups downs but really these aren't hills.
Elevation is king, even if it's only 300'; similar elevations are found around Falaise where some germans held up the allies for two weeks a while back.For ref Hill 112 in Normandy is 100m above sea level iirc. Cannot recall the exact elevation over the surrounding fields.
Edited, beaten to it by hidetheelephants who makes the point well.
Edited by FiF on Sunday 22 May 11:06
Sway said:
I think you're replying to a post making it damned clear Tartan Pixie isn't just talking about wargame experience...
How many wars have you fought in? Cause it's very obvious the answer for TP is 'one or more'.
TP also gets bonus points for including a reference to Stormboyz, although moderate docking of points for implying that Orks operate to any form of tactics.
Very true Sway Tartan Pixie was not just talking about war games online, but from their own experience too. I am sure they can speak for themselves Sway, they don't need you getting Wagatha Christie on this.How many wars have you fought in? Cause it's very obvious the answer for TP is 'one or more'.
TP also gets bonus points for including a reference to Stormboyz, although moderate docking of points for implying that Orks operate to any form of tactics.
For me this has been a learning experience as the Ukrainians have leap frogged alot of the doctrine of targeting and control. They are alot more agile than any NATO or other military at the moment. The US takes 60 minutes to get authorisation, the Russians are quick at 40 minutes and the Ukrainians take just 3. This is a real shake up of how things are on the ground and how the battle is playing out
*Looks critically at the computer* I think the breathalyser stopped working.
To be clear I was variously civilian, camera man or medical, never military. Been shot at a few times but have never and unless someone invades the UK will never will fire a weapon in anger.
Seriously, my dad's Catholic, my mum's Buddhist and my late godmother was a Quaker. I can feel guilty looking at a gun and then have to sit and think about it.
Sorry for the ramble, been winding myself up about Ukraine all week and it just kinda went splat last night.
To be clear I was variously civilian, camera man or medical, never military. Been shot at a few times but have never and unless someone invades the UK will never will fire a weapon in anger.
Seriously, my dad's Catholic, my mum's Buddhist and my late godmother was a Quaker. I can feel guilty looking at a gun and then have to sit and think about it.
Sorry for the ramble, been winding myself up about Ukraine all week and it just kinda went splat last night.
craigjm said:
sisu said:
They are alot more agile than any NATO or other military at the moment. The US takes 60 minutes to get authorisation, the Russians are quick at 40 minutes and the Ukrainians take just 3.
Authorisation for what? Tartan Pixie said:
*Looks critically at the computer* I think the breathalyser stopped working.
To be clear I was variously civilian, camera man or medical, never military. Been shot at a few times but have never and unless someone invades the UK will never will fire a weapon in anger.
Seriously, my dad's Catholic, my mum's Buddhist and my late godmother was a Quaker. I can feel guilty looking at a gun and then have to sit and think about it.
Sorry for the ramble, been winding myself up about Ukraine all week and it just kinda went splat last night.
TP, I always read your posts with interest including the above - having lived there the entire Ukraine situation has been deeply upsetting and at times overwhelming and all consuming for me. It is worth stepping away from the news/computer/internet feeds sometimes as the frustration and upset and build within a person to a point where there is no viable or easy release - more especially with a somewhat distant conflict for Brits.To be clear I was variously civilian, camera man or medical, never military. Been shot at a few times but have never and unless someone invades the UK will never will fire a weapon in anger.
Seriously, my dad's Catholic, my mum's Buddhist and my late godmother was a Quaker. I can feel guilty looking at a gun and then have to sit and think about it.
Sorry for the ramble, been winding myself up about Ukraine all week and it just kinda went splat last night.
All our well-intentioned compassion and best thoughts will do nothing for Ukrainians and their country unless it is backed up with deeds and materiel support - and thankfully we as a country seem to have taken a lead and continue to 'fight the good fight' in face of the quite disgusting and brutal Russian aggression.
Unless directly involved we can only take some solace with the fact that as it stands Britain is doing its utmost militarily and diplomatically to make things as tough as possible for Russia and Putin and hopefully saving as much of Ukraine as possible while continuing to ensure Russia is as isolated as possible on the world stage, and also the moves to make Russia accountable for its deeds when the guns have stopped firing.
I have been in the military, the civil service and also in the emergency services but my youth has past and the days of setting off to a conflict are behind me (I fear I would be more hindrance than value now) but like you, and like millions of Ukrainians, would be quick to pick up a weapon and defend our sovereign soil should an aggressor invade.
On a lighter note, and if you are of an age, imagine Britain were to face invasion and then imagine which one of the Dads Army you might be? Me, now, pretty much a nailed on Private Godfrey but with a touch of Corporal Jones irritating interjections.
hidetheelephants said:
craigjm said:
sisu said:
They are alot more agile than any NATO or other military at the moment. The US takes 60 minutes to get authorisation, the Russians are quick at 40 minutes and the Ukrainians take just 3.
Authorisation for what? Bet the Russians have a quick process too in the same areas.
pquinn said:
hidetheelephants said:
craigjm said:
sisu said:
They are alot more agile than any NATO or other military at the moment. The US takes 60 minutes to get authorisation, the Russians are quick at 40 minutes and the Ukrainians take just 3.
Authorisation for what? Bet the Russians have a quick process too in the same areas.
rovermorris999 said:
craigjm said:
Exactly. They are having to adopt a gorilla approach to their activity because of the position they are in. It doesn’t really matter what they hit.
Beating their chests and making nest out of leafy branches?It's the determination of "the West" to continue to support sanctions, but more importantly, to continue to supply the relevant materiel that will determine the outcome of this war.
Russia WILL run out of missiles, aircraft and tanks before Ukraine, but only if "the West" keeps supplying the right kind of materiel and has a stomach for the fight. Ukraine has the stomach for this fight, but do we?
How much pain is "the West" prepared to suffer before it says "Enough"? Higher taxes to pay for arms. Higher prices to pay for food and fuel.
I fear that Putin, or his successor, will win because we don't think we can afford to have the thermostat at 21C over winter, or that £3 is too much for a loaf of bread, or that £3 per litre is too much for petrol.
Russia WILL run out of missiles, aircraft and tanks before Ukraine, but only if "the West" keeps supplying the right kind of materiel and has a stomach for the fight. Ukraine has the stomach for this fight, but do we?
How much pain is "the West" prepared to suffer before it says "Enough"? Higher taxes to pay for arms. Higher prices to pay for food and fuel.
I fear that Putin, or his successor, will win because we don't think we can afford to have the thermostat at 21C over winter, or that £3 is too much for a loaf of bread, or that £3 per litre is too much for petrol.
pquinn said:
hidetheelephants said:
craigjm said:
sisu said:
They are alot more agile than any NATO or other military at the moment. The US takes 60 minutes to get authorisation, the Russians are quick at 40 minutes and the Ukrainians take just 3.
Authorisation for what? Bet the Russians have a quick process too in the same areas.
pingu393 said:
It's the determination of "the West" to continue to support sanctions, but more importantly, to continue to supply the relevant materiel that will determine the outcome of this war.
Russia WILL run out of missiles, aircraft and tanks before Ukraine, but only if "the West" keeps supplying the right kind of materiel and has a stomach for the fight. Ukraine has the stomach for this fight, but do we?
How much pain is "the West" prepared to suffer before it says "Enough"? Higher taxes to pay for arms. Higher prices to pay for food and fuel.
I fear that Putin, or his successor, will win because we don't think we can afford to have the thermostat at 21C over winter, or that 3 is too much for a loaf of bread, or that 3 per litre is too much for think petrol.
Personally, I think we'll be surprised by our own commitment as we have been throughout. We need to reduce our dependency on fossil fuels *anyway* and it's not a hard sell - we're being threatened with nukes every other day, we'd be insane to give Russia the ability to buy more nukes.Russia WILL run out of missiles, aircraft and tanks before Ukraine, but only if "the West" keeps supplying the right kind of materiel and has a stomach for the fight. Ukraine has the stomach for this fight, but do we?
How much pain is "the West" prepared to suffer before it says "Enough"? Higher taxes to pay for arms. Higher prices to pay for food and fuel.
I fear that Putin, or his successor, will win because we don't think we can afford to have the thermostat at 21C over winter, or that 3 is too much for a loaf of bread, or that 3 per litre is too much for think petrol.
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