Russia invades Ukraine. Volume 2
Discussion
sisu said:
boholoblanka said:
Guys, small arms are less relevant nowadays? is that fair to say?
I cant help but ask this q in light of the fact that the battlefield is still populated with AK47 variants. Ive friends in the army here and they use Steyr AUG's etc and im wondering why an investment hasnt been made in terms of small arms.
We sent 2500 Sako R62 assault rifles and 150,000 rounds to Kyiv and also other assault weapons from Valmet as others that were comparable to what the troops were using in Ukraine, we will send more when needed.I cant help but ask this q in light of the fact that the battlefield is still populated with AK47 variants. Ive friends in the army here and they use Steyr AUG's etc and im wondering why an investment hasnt been made in terms of small arms.
I haven't used the Steyr pup or that type of rifle so can't comment on its virtues or flaws.
Presumably, with the move to transform them onto NATO standards, they'll end up standardising on one of the western models eventually, logistics must be a right muddle at the moment. But they were obviously in "whatever they can get their hands on mode" at the beginning.
TTmonkey said:
Yes to destruction of Russian assets used in the war efforts. Sabotage.
Well that is likely already happening. Fires all over the place. Some of the drone strikes could potentially have been launched from Russia. I bet locals in Russia are giving intelligence. Ditto Belarus.
Can't remember the last time I saw any media with Ukrainians toting AKs. Maybe internal security but certainly no one engaged in combat at the front. I remember when James Vasquez arrived in March and was presented with an AK-74, he managed to swap it out for something more modern pretty fast.
untakenname said:
Prolex-UK said:
Thinking about when it ends,hopefully with Russia kicked out completely, who pays for the rebuilding ?
Ukraine will be given a loan from the IMF then the big infrastructure projects will go to the Germans and French just like what happened with Poland back in 2009.HM-2 said:
jimmyjimjim said:
Leaving aside the fact that it's currently an AK-12 - it would be similar in looks and operation to the original AK-47, but the internals and construction are different.
Not quite true I don't think, the AK-12 is in very limited production and the primary weapon in use by Russia is still the AK-74M, which was released in 1991 (though it's functionally identical to the AK-74, about 50 years old in basic design).That said there are a LOT of wooden stock AK-74s cropping up in footage from the Russian side, so it's quite feasible they're handing out pretty ancient rifles to folks engaged in combat in Ukraine.
jimmyjimjim said:
HM-2 said:
jimmyjimjim said:
Leaving aside the fact that it's currently an AK-12 - it would be similar in looks and operation to the original AK-47, but the internals and construction are different.
Not quite true I don't think, the AK-12 is in very limited production and the primary weapon in use by Russia is still the AK-74M, which was released in 1991 (though it's functionally identical to the AK-74, about 50 years old in basic design).That said there are a LOT of wooden stock AK-74s cropping up in footage from the Russian side, so it's quite feasible they're handing out pretty ancient rifles to folks engaged in combat in Ukraine.
https://t.me/RVvoenkor/17786
Apparently there's been a prisoner exchange and some Azov defenders have been returned to Ukraine.
Judging by the thread this has dissatisfied Russians and best of all many of them have come to the realization that denazification is a total lie. (Which surprises me because I thought they all knew.)
Original story could be false but the reaction in the posts is obvs real.
EDIT: Seems to be true: https://www.kyivpost.com/ukraine-politics/breaking...
Apparently there's been a prisoner exchange and some Azov defenders have been returned to Ukraine.
Judging by the thread this has dissatisfied Russians and best of all many of them have come to the realization that denazification is a total lie. (Which surprises me because I thought they all knew.)
Original story could be false but the reaction in the posts is obvs real.
EDIT: Seems to be true: https://www.kyivpost.com/ukraine-politics/breaking...
Edited by BikeBikeBIke on Wednesday 29th June 16:38
TTmonkey said:
boholoblanka said:
thanks guys. to the untrained eye it looked like the same rifle since the 1950's. much obliged for the time taken to respond
I think we are effectively talking about the ‘generic Russian rifle’ which looks and feels very similar to each other. However although the new looks like the old it’s workings are very different, most obviously in the ammunition used.
But I believe the statements about its availability and reliability are the same though.
TTmonkey said:
Prolex-UK said:
Thinking about when it ends,hopefully with Russia kicked out completely, who pays for the rebuilding ?
From what I have seen you are talking billions of £/$/Euros
I understand that it is illegal for us to use the money/goods we have seized from the Russians.
Think that needs to be revisited.
Its not like at the end of WW2 when the victors help rebuild
Russia gets billions for its oil & gas so why can we not take it from them deduct 50%.
Doesnt seem right that the get off scot free
Laws can be changed. From what I have seen you are talking billions of £/$/Euros
I understand that it is illegal for us to use the money/goods we have seized from the Russians.
Think that needs to be revisited.
Its not like at the end of WW2 when the victors help rebuild
Russia gets billions for its oil & gas so why can we not take it from them deduct 50%.
Doesnt seem right that the get off scot free
Just help ourselves to the money and tell them to do one. Seems to be what Russia view as acceptable or maybe we could get our politicians to put out a statement saying they actually gave it to us and it's all fake news?
We talked about Putin's next step...
I suppose there is one way out for him. Vietnamization.
Press ganged local conscripts are already taking the strain. Putin can declare victory. Pull out Russian troops handing over the newly won territory free of Nazis to the locals.
Then guess what? There would be a power sharing deal between the newly de-Nazified Dombas and Ukraine and the Donbas would be close allies of Ukraine. In fact the rest of the world would continue to see them as exactly the same territory. Russia's victory would be so complete that no Russian troops would ever need to return.
Nobody outside Russia would be fooled but Russians seem willing to buy anything.
This isn't a prediction, it's my suggestion of what I'd do if I was Putin.
I suppose there is one way out for him. Vietnamization.
Press ganged local conscripts are already taking the strain. Putin can declare victory. Pull out Russian troops handing over the newly won territory free of Nazis to the locals.
Then guess what? There would be a power sharing deal between the newly de-Nazified Dombas and Ukraine and the Donbas would be close allies of Ukraine. In fact the rest of the world would continue to see them as exactly the same territory. Russia's victory would be so complete that no Russian troops would ever need to return.
Nobody outside Russia would be fooled but Russians seem willing to buy anything.
This isn't a prediction, it's my suggestion of what I'd do if I was Putin.
rxe said:
off_again said:
And just to add to this:
And as others have mentioned, thats before we get to the use of T-62 tanks in the battlefield - seriously, 1960's tanks? WTAF? And the current stocks of Russian armor is something that Perun and others have covered in detail, but they dont have 10's of thousands in stock. They have around 3000 in usable form, THATS IT. They have burned through something like 1500 already in just over 100 days.....And the Ukrainians have been pretty much static on their total number (replaced by European nations or captured Russian), the Russians are getting ground up on the battle field.
However, this means nothing in the face of Russian tactics - keep throwing men at the battle and hope for a breakthrough at some point. 50+ generals, 15 senior Kremlin leaders and tens of thousands dead, but keep throwing those men at the war, it will change, right?
The T-62 is perfectly good in the role they are using it for, which is as a self propelled gun that is used to level things within close-ish range. It is just as vulnerable to NLAWs as the more modern stuff, they’re all mobile coffins in that respect. No one seems to be having the sort of tank battles where the differences between old and new tanks would be material.And as others have mentioned, thats before we get to the use of T-62 tanks in the battlefield - seriously, 1960's tanks? WTAF? And the current stocks of Russian armor is something that Perun and others have covered in detail, but they dont have 10's of thousands in stock. They have around 3000 in usable form, THATS IT. They have burned through something like 1500 already in just over 100 days.....And the Ukrainians have been pretty much static on their total number (replaced by European nations or captured Russian), the Russians are getting ground up on the battle field.
However, this means nothing in the face of Russian tactics - keep throwing men at the battle and hope for a breakthrough at some point. 50+ generals, 15 senior Kremlin leaders and tens of thousands dead, but keep throwing those men at the war, it will change, right?
As others have pointed out, they have an increased crew requirement - remember Russia is struggling to recruit soldiers and placing a 20% increase on the number of people required for these things is a bad idea. Its slower and has a different main gun - which uses different ammunition from every other main battle tank that Russia has fielded to this date. So yeah, its a pretty bad idea for them to use them.
However, if they used it as infantry support, or in other suitable roles, it might just work. Or maybe to bolster protection of moving columns etc - I dont know, I am no strategic genius. But it totally depends on its use rather than as a replacement. The only real benefit that I can see is that it doesnt have an autoloader, the single component that seems to be the cause of those ejecting turrets from every other Russian tank - so maybe its more survivable is those situations. But hey, what would you like? A faster and better armored tank but with a nasty habit of exploding? Or a 50 year old tank that is slower and has significantly thinner armor? Hard choice.
NRS said:
I'm somewhat surprised we don't see more proper terrorism attacks in Russia, given the amount of Ukrainians there, rather than just military targets.
What better way to prove you're all a bunch of Nazi terrorists that should be rounded up and disappear than by being actual terrorists. If you follow on twitter the number of train derailments and factory and storage fires is quite remarkable given the personal risks that must be being taken. Far more strategically effective use of their time IMO.https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Russian_myste...
Driller said:
I spoke to a Russian fellow a few days ago who told me that Ukraine has 700,000 soldiers. I was very surprised to hear this snd even more surprised when I googled it and it said “900,000 across land, sea and air”.
Surely Putin can’t win against all that personnel + NATO weapons?
Problem is training and experience. Much of those numbers are from conscripted or volunteer troops that have virtually zero training when compared to Western forces. They can field a large number and have been growing it for years, but it only really ramped up in Dec / Jan due to the impending threat. Now you have to get hundreds of thousands of people through training and prepared for a bloody fight; not an easy task.Surely Putin can’t win against all that personnel + NATO weapons?
Pure numbers doesn't change that much though - they need equipment, ammo and the leaders & tactics to bring it all together. Cue some of the stories about the partisans in the Balkans and Greece in WW2. Lots of commitment and people to fight the Nazi's, but death toll was awful. In come the Allies with training, equipment and tactics and suddenly their attrition dropped massively and their effectiveness jumped.
As an example of a nation that has an incredibly effective reserve army - take a look at Finland. 280,000 war time strength and up to an additional 900,000 reserve strength. But they have been operating with an extensive training & re-training program for decades. They might not have the biggest tank or air force in the region, but what they do have is a well trained active and reserve army that has developed tactics over decades and access to a huge number of defensive structures, tunnels and bunkers. What they dont have in tanks or planes, they make up with people and it works, though not tested....
Lots of weapons with freaky sizes going to Ukraine from Russia. Shortage of Ammo? I hope so.
https://twitter.com/TrentTelenko/status/1542181620...
https://twitter.com/TrentTelenko/status/1542181620...
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