RMT union vote for a national rail strike
Discussion
Ouroboros said:
It is the BR mentality.
Back in the old days they got a s
t load of perks, free rail travel, some 1st class. Golden pensions etc. When the debts kept mounting up the rail unions just didn't want to change, because the government keeps bailing them out. There will be a point when it just isn't feasible to spend billions on something that is obviously failing.
I worked with some people who worked less than 6 months a year for full salary, because contract from 20 years said so.
1971 is on the phone. They need you back, pronto.Back in the old days they got a s
t load of perks, free rail travel, some 1st class. Golden pensions etc. When the debts kept mounting up the rail unions just didn't want to change, because the government keeps bailing them out. There will be a point when it just isn't feasible to spend billions on something that is obviously failing.I worked with some people who worked less than 6 months a year for full salary, because contract from 20 years said so.
Edited by Ouroboros on Saturday 25th June 13:14
This golden era you mention. I worked with some staff who worked through it. They told me of qualified drivers leaving the industry (and all its excellent perks) to pursue other careers - some drove local buses for a 30% increase in wage. Others passed their HGV licence and drove nationally for twice the wage. Some joined local government for the same pay but better perks and pension because they couldn’t hack the shifts, anti-social rosters and working all bank holidays.
Sorry if that scuppers your rose-tinted ramblings.
Digga said:
Because you, I, or anyone else can’t opt to run a train service, ad hoc. That’s how.
You call a strike at short notice, people who rely (not least because they’re told “cars are baaad McKay.”) on public transport, have only the limited coach network to fall back on. They are not directly interchangeable either, if you have set you life up to be carless and reliant on rail.
I can't really opt to run an airline either, so they are monopoly?You call a strike at short notice, people who rely (not least because they’re told “cars are baaad McKay.”) on public transport, have only the limited coach network to fall back on. They are not directly interchangeable either, if you have set you life up to be carless and reliant on rail.
The strike was not short notice, it was talked about for a while unlike Easyjet and others who just canceled the flights while people were at the airport, but that is OK because it was the managers fault.
legzr1 said:
The simple answer is there is no immunity.
I’ve said this several times, explained it and still find myself repeating it yet again.
There have been thousands of redundancies. I’ve been made redundant wisely quite a few times. Every time there’s a downturn in the economy the threat returns and more are forced out of the industry.
I can’t dumb it down any further.
I’m confused…the RMT are demanding immunity from CR…do you disagree with that position?I’ve said this several times, explained it and still find myself repeating it yet again.
There have been thousands of redundancies. I’ve been made redundant wisely quite a few times. Every time there’s a downturn in the economy the threat returns and more are forced out of the industry.
I can’t dumb it down any further.
I Know Nothing said:
Unions should be irrelevent these days but seems we are going in the opposite direction.
Working conditions seems to be getting worse, age of retirment is going up while some get to retire at 55 if not earlier. Pay has decreased in recent years and there is demand that some sectors work unsociable hours for little if no extra pay (I will put a seperate posting on this in a bit).
It’s often overlooked but unions are responsible for sick pay, annual leave and they have actually pushed health and safety etc. If more people were in a union the gradual eroding of working conditions would not be so prevalent. Working conditions seems to be getting worse, age of retirment is going up while some get to retire at 55 if not earlier. Pay has decreased in recent years and there is demand that some sectors work unsociable hours for little if no extra pay (I will put a seperate posting on this in a bit).
Just reading this thread and there’s already evidence of a race to the bottom and the government are very good at spinning the classes against each other.
valiant said:
If the government gets its way and closes all the ticket offices
Not sure that is the plan but some changes are required. I understand ticket office opening hours are largely unchanged for 30 years despite the rise of online sales, ticket machines etc.Scotrail are currently consulting on reducing ticket office hours. They surveyed the average number of ticket sales per hour across the network.
Random examples. Dalmuir Ticket Office. Currently staffed to 11pm. On average from 7pm to 11pm it sells 5 tickets.
Dalmarock. Open all day. Only sells tickets in double figures for two hours.
https://www.scotrail.co.uk/sites/default/files/ass...
Putting those staff on trains might even increase revenue as they could get cash from those who just walk past the ticket office without buying a ticket.
Ouroboros said:
I Know Nothing said:
Seen the price of rail travel, you have to be quite well off to travel by rail!
Of course you can say the bosses and the government don't care about this group because they can just as easily settle the dispute by giving the railway workers what they want.
As long as these strikes are announced in advance most people and organisations should be able to make arrangements to mitigate any disruption by finding alternatives?
Seen the price of fuel, car tax car expenses.Of course you can say the bosses and the government don't care about this group because they can just as easily settle the dispute by giving the railway workers what they want.
As long as these strikes are announced in advance most people and organisations should be able to make arrangements to mitigate any disruption by finding alternatives?
Look where these strikes impact the most, towns in the sticks, places that aren't readily accessible. The places where poor or older people live. It is shameful really and I think the rail industry needs a shake up.
It is funny seeing this fat middle aged union reps, never worked a hard day in there lives smiling at all this. Got to keep getting the subs. I will never forgot the miners living on nothing whilst Arthur Scargill lived in up on full wages in his penthouse. Who are the idiots there?
Again you can turn this round and say the same thing about the bosses, they are far less likely to have done any hard work most unions reps usually worked in the industry, guy who runs the union now did he not work as an electrician on on the railways - correct me if I am wrong as I am not sure.
Most places in the sticks have had their railway shut down years ago.
loafer123 said:
I’m confused…the RMT are demanding immunity from CR…do you disagree with that position?
You are confused.RMT have said redundancies can be discussed (as they have been on numerous other occasions).
The people who they discuss this with have been quite happy with this for decades (and certainly over the last 12 years).
NR would be quite happy to drop the unnecessary demand in this dispute.
Shapps/Tories/DfT have been happy with this process for decades.
Their words: ‘non of our business’.
There is no need for compulsory redundancies. Both sides agree. The argument of immunity from it is irrelevant.
Then Shapps/Tories/DfT demand it and hamstring NR from afar.
Drop the demand. Either government get involved fully or STFU and look elsewhere for another deflection.
A complex issue with a simple remedy - let those who know what they’re doing get on with it.
Tlandcruiser said:
It’s often overlooked but unions are responsible for sick pay, annual leave and they have actually pushed health and safety etc. If more people were in a union the gradual eroding of working conditions would not be so prevalent.
Just reading this thread and there’s already evidence of a race to the bottom and the government are very good at spinning the classes against each other.
Good post.Just reading this thread and there’s already evidence of a race to the bottom and the government are very good at spinning the classes against each other.
legzr1 said:
You are confused.
RMT have said redundancies can be discussed (as they have been on numerous other occasions).
The people who they discuss this with have been quite happy with this for decades (and certainly over the last 12 years).
NR would be quite happy to drop the unnecessary demand in this dispute.
Shapps/Tories/DfT have been happy with this process for decades.
Their words: ‘non of our business’.
There is no need for compulsory redundancies. Both sides agree. The argument of immunity from it is irrelevant.
Then Shapps/Tories/DfT demand it and hamstring NR from afar.
Drop the demand. Either government get involved fully or STFU and look elsewhere for another deflection.
A complex issue with a simple remedy - let those who know what they’re doing get on with it.
I thought the RMT don’t just want it guaranteed on the current proposed redundancies which maybe over subscribed voluntarily, but also in the future?RMT have said redundancies can be discussed (as they have been on numerous other occasions).
The people who they discuss this with have been quite happy with this for decades (and certainly over the last 12 years).
NR would be quite happy to drop the unnecessary demand in this dispute.
Shapps/Tories/DfT have been happy with this process for decades.
Their words: ‘non of our business’.
There is no need for compulsory redundancies. Both sides agree. The argument of immunity from it is irrelevant.
Then Shapps/Tories/DfT demand it and hamstring NR from afar.
Drop the demand. Either government get involved fully or STFU and look elsewhere for another deflection.
A complex issue with a simple remedy - let those who know what they’re doing get on with it.
irc said:
Not sure that is the plan but some changes are required. I understand ticket office opening hours are largely unchanged for 30 years despite the rise of online sales, ticket machines etc.
Scotrail are currently consulting on reducing ticket office hours. They surveyed the average number of ticket sales per hour across the network.
Random examples. Dalmuir Ticket Office. Currently staffed to 11pm. On average from 7pm to 11pm it sells 5 tickets.
Dalmarock. Open all day. Only sells tickets in double figures for two hours.
https://www.scotrail.co.uk/sites/default/files/ass...
Putting those staff on trains might even increase revenue as they could get cash from those who just walk past the ticket office without buying a ticket.
I recently went to Stoke on a train, had to change at Crewe!Scotrail are currently consulting on reducing ticket office hours. They surveyed the average number of ticket sales per hour across the network.
Random examples. Dalmuir Ticket Office. Currently staffed to 11pm. On average from 7pm to 11pm it sells 5 tickets.
Dalmarock. Open all day. Only sells tickets in double figures for two hours.
https://www.scotrail.co.uk/sites/default/files/ass...
Putting those staff on trains might even increase revenue as they could get cash from those who just walk past the ticket office without buying a ticket.
Got to the station, one window open for ticket sales large queue, £20 for 37 min journey one way, train delayed.
Got to Crewe, Crewe is a huge station, no idea were to go for my connection. There was one guy on the platform and about 10 people around him looking for guidance took about 30 minutes to get my turn. Got to Stoke, train doors stuck shut, no one to summon help.
Just what the railways need less people!
Tlandcruiser said:
It’s often overlooked but unions are responsible for sick pay, annual leave and they have actually pushed health and safety etc. If more people were in a union the gradual eroding of working conditions would not be so prevalent.
Just reading this thread and there’s already evidence of a race to the bottom and the government are very good at spinning the classes against each other.
My union actively campaigned and went mad when we were given a retention bonus. Claiming as it wasn’t given to people in other roles it was unfair. Just reading this thread and there’s already evidence of a race to the bottom and the government are very good at spinning the classes against each other.
They then refused a pay offer because it was only for my working group. Costing me abs people doing my job thousands.
They have now done the dirty and thrown us under the bus with a pay rise less than originally offered to look after others in the same union. Basically playing us like pawns and lying though their teeth. Not even the reps can defend it.
Some unions might be great, but at my workplace they are a disgrace and have insured I have less money. But hey it’s the government who are to blame…
loafer123 said:
I thought the RMT don’t just want it guaranteed on the current proposed redundancies which maybe over subscribed voluntarily, but also in the future?
As far as I know that isn’t and never has been a demand.The demand has always been (quite rightly in my opinion) that it shouldn’t even be mentioned where other alternatives are available (such as over subscriptions for voluntary redundancy).
Unfortunately, some on here, certain sections of the press and very poor Tory back-benchers seem to ignore that.
Ggrrr immunity.
milkround said:
My union actively campaigned and went mad when we were given a retention bonus. Claiming as it wasn’t given to people in other roles it was unfair.
They then refused a pay offer because it was only for my working group. Costing me abs people doing my job thousands.
They have now done the dirty and thrown us under the bus with a pay rise less than originally offered to look after others in the same union. Basically playing us like pawns and lying though their teeth. Not even the reps can defend it.
Some unions might be great, but at my workplace they are a disgrace and have insured I have less money. But hey it’s the government who are to blame…
sThey then refused a pay offer because it was only for my working group. Costing me abs people doing my job thousands.
They have now done the dirty and thrown us under the bus with a pay rise less than originally offered to look after others in the same union. Basically playing us like pawns and lying though their teeth. Not even the reps can defend it.
Some unions might be great, but at my workplace they are a disgrace and have insured I have less money. But hey it’s the government who are to blame…
t practise.Which union?
legzr1 said:
loafer123 said:
I thought the RMT don’t just want it guaranteed on the current proposed redundancies which maybe over subscribed voluntarily, but also in the future?
As far as I know that isn’t and never has been a demand.The demand has always been (quite rightly in my opinion) that it shouldn’t even be mentioned where other alternatives are available (such as over subscriptions for voluntary redundancy).
Unfortunately, some on here, certain sections of the press and very poor Tory back-benchers seem to ignore that.
Ggrrr immunity.
Clearly, if redundancies are required, it is better to do that via VR, but if not, like any other organisation, it would have to be CR…they don’t have guaranteed jobs for life…no one does.
As for the demand itself, it has been remarkably imprecise about what it covers…
loafer123 said:
I thought the RMT don’t just want it guaranteed on the current proposed redundancies which maybe over subscribed voluntarily, but also in the future?
According to Question Time answer from the union guy they have a 12 year agreement of no compulsary redundancies which they want honouredI Know Nothing said:
According to Question Time answer from the union guy they have a 12 year agreement of no compulsary redundancies which they want honoured
No, you misquote.What he said is that, over the last 12 years, they’ve negotiated on several occasions with NR and TOCs without the need for a demand of compulsory redundancies.
And (my opinion ) without the need for government interference.
If I remember correctly it was in response to some silly comment that railways need to move on and modernise.
His reply was correct - there have been massive changes to terms, use of technology, and changes to roles and responsibilities over the years.
irc said:
valiant said:
If the government gets its way and closes all the ticket offices
Not sure that is the plan but some changes are required. I understand ticket office opening hours are largely unchanged for 30 years despite the rise of online sales, ticket machines etc.Scotrail are currently consulting on reducing ticket office hours. They surveyed the average number of ticket sales per hour across the network.
Random examples. Dalmuir Ticket Office. Currently staffed to 11pm. On average from 7pm to 11pm it sells 5 tickets.
Dalmarock. Open all day. Only sells tickets in double figures for two hours.
https://www.scotrail.co.uk/sites/default/files/ass...
Putting those staff on trains might even increase revenue as they could get cash from those who just walk past the ticket office without buying a ticket.
https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-reveals-rail-indus...
It’s the RMT website but it has a link to the RDG proposals (Try and avoid buying a Free Cuba T-shirt whist browsing…)
loafer123 said:
Why shouldn’t it be mentioned?
Clearly, if redundancies are required, it is better to do that via VR, but if not, like any other organisation, it would have to be CR…they don’t have guaranteed jobs for life…no one does.
As for the demand itself, it has been remarkably imprecise about what it covers…
Why should it be mentioned when it isn’t required to be mentioned.Clearly, if redundancies are required, it is better to do that via VR, but if not, like any other organisation, it would have to be CR…they don’t have guaranteed jobs for life…no one does.
As for the demand itself, it has been remarkably imprecise about what it covers…
The mention of it (and refusal, so far, to remove it) leads directly to your last point.
RMT and NR seem quite happy to negotiate, as normal, without it.
Other think differently.
No serious negotiations as a result.
I guess someone, somewhere knows exactly the reason for this.
I can (and have) hinted and guessed.
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