RMT union vote for a national rail strike
Discussion
legzr1 said:
loafer123 said:
The problem with your theory is that it turns everything into a new dispute…rolling action to stop change…they will never agree to CR, as they are demonstrating now.
You asked a hypothetical question. I answered ‘ in kind’Truth is, I can’t predict with certainty what would happen. Nor can you.
However ,very recent history shows what can be achieved without the the threat of CR.
Now it’s up to those who are paid to sort this out to actually get it sorted.
Less interference would be welcomed too.
The fact is that the RMT refuses to negotiate anything with CR as a possibility.
legzr1 said:
Ouroboros said:
It is the BR mentality.
Back in the old days they got a s
t load of perks, free rail travel, some 1st class. Golden pensions etc. When the debts kept mounting up the rail unions just didn't want to change, because the government keeps bailing them out. There will be a point when it just isn't feasible to spend billions on something that is obviously failing.
I worked with some people who worked less than 6 months a year for full salary, because contract from 20 years said so.
1971 is on the phone. They need you back, pronto.Back in the old days they got a s
t load of perks, free rail travel, some 1st class. Golden pensions etc. When the debts kept mounting up the rail unions just didn't want to change, because the government keeps bailing them out. There will be a point when it just isn't feasible to spend billions on something that is obviously failing.I worked with some people who worked less than 6 months a year for full salary, because contract from 20 years said so.
Edited by Ouroboros on Saturday 25th June 13:14
This golden era you mention. I worked with some staff who worked through it. They told me of qualified drivers leaving the industry (and all its excellent perks) to pursue other careers - some drove local buses for a 30% increase in wage. Others passed their HGV licence and drove nationally for twice the wage. Some joined local government for the same pay but better perks and pension because they couldn’t hack the shifts, anti-social rosters and working all bank holidays.
Sorry if that scuppers your rose-tinted ramblings.
t?To move on a bit, and trying to be realistic.
Now that we've had 3 days of strikes there's all the obvious debates about how effective it was, plus the inevitable tales of woe highlighted by the media.
On the other hand it seems that a good many mainline trains were still running on strike days.
I'm not at all clear as to whether the action has made much real difference to the negotiations, but at least more of the public have become aware of the union's concerns (and many have said that Lynch was refreshingly clear).
As an outside bystander I'd guess that nothing very much has actually changed and it will be interesting to see if the RMT feels that further strikes will help them.
Am I being naive, biased, argumentative ??
Now that we've had 3 days of strikes there's all the obvious debates about how effective it was, plus the inevitable tales of woe highlighted by the media.
On the other hand it seems that a good many mainline trains were still running on strike days.
I'm not at all clear as to whether the action has made much real difference to the negotiations, but at least more of the public have become aware of the union's concerns (and many have said that Lynch was refreshingly clear).
As an outside bystander I'd guess that nothing very much has actually changed and it will be interesting to see if the RMT feels that further strikes will help them.
Am I being naive, biased, argumentative ??
loafer123 said:
All we can go on is facts.
The fact is that the RMT refuses to negotiate anything with CR as a possibility.
Yes.The fact is that the RMT refuses to negotiate anything with CR as a possibility.
Another fact is the two sides who were supposed to be negotiating a deal (and have done for decades) aren’t being allowed to. As I said, strings are being pulled by a government in deep s
t. In the past week ASLEF and TSSA have been left alone to get on with it.
Doesn’t take a cynic too see what’s going on.
legzr1 said:
Yes.
Another fact is the two sides who were supposed to be negotiating a deal (and have done for decades) aren’t being allowed to. As I said, strings are being pulled by a government in deep st.
In the past week ASLEF and TSSA have been left alone to get on with it.
Doesn’t take a cynic too see what’s going on.
O/T but I can never figure out if your name means you are 'leg' with a Corvette ZR1 or 'legz' with a Yamaha R1...put me out of my miseryAnother fact is the two sides who were supposed to be negotiating a deal (and have done for decades) aren’t being allowed to. As I said, strings are being pulled by a government in deep s
t. In the past week ASLEF and TSSA have been left alone to get on with it.
Doesn’t take a cynic too see what’s going on.
Vasco said:
To move on a bit, and trying to be realistic.
Now that we've had 3 days of strikes there's all the obvious debates about how effective it was, plus the inevitable tales of woe highlighted by the media.
On the other hand it seems that a good many mainline trains were still running on strike days.
I'm not at all clear as to whether the action has made much real difference to the negotiations, but at least more of the public have become aware of the union's concerns (and many have said that Lynch was refreshingly clear).
As an outside bystander I'd guess that nothing very much has actually changed and it will be interesting to see if the RMT feels that further strikes will help them.
Am I being naive, biased, argumentative ??
A fair summary.Now that we've had 3 days of strikes there's all the obvious debates about how effective it was, plus the inevitable tales of woe highlighted by the media.
On the other hand it seems that a good many mainline trains were still running on strike days.
I'm not at all clear as to whether the action has made much real difference to the negotiations, but at least more of the public have become aware of the union's concerns (and many have said that Lynch was refreshingly clear).
As an outside bystander I'd guess that nothing very much has actually changed and it will be interesting to see if the RMT feels that further strikes will help them.
Am I being naive, biased, argumentative ??
I haven’t seen the union shout chaos! ransom!
Some other commentators have.
Because the action didn’t have huge ramifications the narrative seems to have changed.
I really wish those in government trying to push an agenda would just butt out and leave them to negotiate a deal.
Tankrizzo said:
O/T but I can never figure out if your name means you are 'leg' with a Corvette ZR1 or 'legz' with a Yamaha R1...put me out of my misery
I’ve had 6 R1s from ‘98 to 2019. R1M was the final one.
Hung up the boots and leathers around 2 years ago.
Don’t bounce like I used to.
If I get an 11% pay rise I may look to a bike again
valiant said:
Well, judge for yourself. Linky attached,
https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-reveals-rail-indus...
It’s the RMT website but it has a link to the RDG proposals (Try and avoid buying a Free Cuba T-shirt whist browsing…)
Fair enough. Big closures wanted. Is that necessarily a bad thing though? If they don't need ticket offices to sell tickets?https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-reveals-rail-indus...
It’s the RMT website but it has a link to the RDG proposals (Try and avoid buying a Free Cuba T-shirt whist browsing…)
Security? Can't comment on most of them but some of the low use Scottish ticket offices are not crime hotspots. Aviemore?
Buses manage to run without having security staff at bus stops apart from the big city and town centre stations.
legzr1 said:
I really wish those in government trying to push an agenda would just butt out and leave them to negotiate a deal.
For the umpteenth time, the railways are on the government books, they are up to the eyeballs in debt, they have ever right to start questioning as it is the tax payer paying for the billions going down the pan.I see your posts and have never seen such a blinkered viewpoint in my life.
The facts are 16 billion MORE costs on the railway in TWO the last two years. 5 billion emergency funding to TfL. This was added to the 50 billion debt.
I can guarantee you, the government with 2 trillion in debt, cannot and will not keep pumping billions into the money pit that the railway is currently.
The pigheadedness of the unions saying that the government should fully fund the railway, well there are clearly limits. It isn't a bubble.
legzr1 said:
loafer123 said:
All we can go on is facts.
The fact is that the RMT refuses to negotiate anything with CR as a possibility.
Yes.The fact is that the RMT refuses to negotiate anything with CR as a possibility.
Another fact is the two sides who were supposed to be negotiating a deal (and have done for decades) aren’t being allowed to. As I said, strings are being pulled by a government in deep s
t. In the past week ASLEF and TSSA have been left alone to get on with it.
Doesn’t take a cynic too see what’s going on.
Network Rail would then have to ring Grant Shapps, who as the SoS Transport is the effective owner of Network Rail, 45 minutes later they'd come back with an even worse deal.
Ouroboros said:
legzr1 said:
I really wish those in government trying to push an agenda would just butt out and leave them to negotiate a deal.
For the umpteenth time, the railways are on the government books, they are up to the eyeballs in debt, they have ever right to start questioning as it is the tax payer paying for the billions going down the pan.I see you posted and have never seen such blinkered viewpoint in my life.
The facts are 16 billion MORE costs on the railway in TWO years. 5 billion emergency funding to TfL.
I can guarantee you, the government with 2 trillion in debt, cannot and will not keep pumping billions into the money pit that the railway is currently.
The pigheadedness of the unions saying that the government should fully fund the railway, well there are clearly limits. It isn't a bubble.
While cutting public services to the bone.
stitched said:
Perhaps some figures to back up what most here would term utter bullst?
I have none. It was almost 40 years ago.t?Around 250 ‘young ‘uns’ where taken on in my area to plug the gap of those leaving for better money and natural wastage.
Don’t believe me if you don’t want to.
Doesn’t really matter to me too much.
Ouroboros said:
For the umpteenth time, the railways are on the government books, they are up to the eyeballs in debt, they have ever right to start questioning as it is the tax payer paying for the billions going down the pan.
I see your posts and have never seen such a blinkered viewpoint in my life.
The facts are 16 billion MORE costs on the railway in TWO the last two years. 5 billion emergency funding to TfL. This was added to the 50 billion debt.
I can guarantee you, the government with 2 trillion in debt, cannot and will not keep pumping billions into the money pit that the railway is currently.
The pigheadedness of the unions saying that the government should fully fund the railway, well there are clearly limits. It isn't a bubble.
Talk about blinkered I see your posts and have never seen such a blinkered viewpoint in my life.
The facts are 16 billion MORE costs on the railway in TWO the last two years. 5 billion emergency funding to TfL. This was added to the 50 billion debt.
I can guarantee you, the government with 2 trillion in debt, cannot and will not keep pumping billions into the money pit that the railway is currently.
The pigheadedness of the unions saying that the government should fully fund the railway, well there are clearly limits. It isn't a bubble.
You seem so desperate to make a point you missed the fact that several bank-benchers, a couple of front-benchers and mainstream media have said, on countless occasions that government cannot get involved in disputes between employees and employers. They will not. They cannot.
Has that sunk in?
Clear to you now?
Ready for the next part?
Ok then.
Here we go…
RMT have said (and NR and TOCs quietly agree) that government are actively getting involved.
Tories deny it. Tory no-ones put themselves in front of camera and repeat the briefing.
It culminates in M Lynch making another Tory look an absolute f
king idiot on Question Time. Any of that not clear?
Ouroboros said:
For the umpteenth time, the railways are on the government books, they are up to the eyeballs in debt, they have ever right to start questioning as it is the tax payer paying for the billions going down the pan.
I see your posts and have never seen such a blinkered viewpoint in my life.
The facts are 16 billion MORE costs on the railway in TWO the last two years. 5 billion emergency funding to TfL. This was added to the 50 billion debt.
I can guarantee you, the government with 2 trillion in debt, cannot and will not keep pumping billions into the money pit that the railway is currently.
The pigheadedness of the unions saying that the government should fully fund the railway, well there are clearly limits. It isn't a bubble.
The government could have quite easily shut the railways down during covid and furloughed all the staff and save billions. It chose on day 1 of lockdown to effectively nationalise the train operating companies (what’s that about privatising profits and nationalising loses I see your posts and have never seen such a blinkered viewpoint in my life.
The facts are 16 billion MORE costs on the railway in TWO the last two years. 5 billion emergency funding to TfL. This was added to the 50 billion debt.
I can guarantee you, the government with 2 trillion in debt, cannot and will not keep pumping billions into the money pit that the railway is currently.
The pigheadedness of the unions saying that the government should fully fund the railway, well there are clearly limits. It isn't a bubble.
)TfL emergency funding are mostly loans and TfL had to run into virtual bankruptcy before the government stepped in and they forced TfL to run a full as timetable as possible - no covid timetables on the tube). Who playing politics now?
And besides, £16bn on a £2tn debt is absolutely nothing, it doesn’t even register when compared to the nations debt especially as Rishi wrote off over £5bn of bad covid loans without much thought and just recently lost £11bn as well as all the other enormous covid costs that make the railway costs look like chicken feed.
anonymoususer said:
I must say our friend legzr1 has given us all a great insight into the industry.It's not an industry I have much interest in simply because for me the car is king
The times I have travelled by train I have been astonished at just how quiet carriages are.
Let’s be fair here, there have been lots of other posts in this thread from a couple of members with more insight, experience and an ability for clarity.The times I have travelled by train I have been astonished at just how quiet carriages are.
Judging by responses to my posts, I need to work on that last point…
Cars (and bikes) for me too.
I get free rail travel as ‘protected staff’ - part of the deal when a national industry was sold off piecemeal to ‘friends and family’. I never use them.
As some have pointed out in this thread, if you plan ahead and travel off-peak on certain parts of the network you can have a seat, table or even carriage to yourself. However, try the last Edinburgh train on a Friday night…
Edited by legzr1 on Saturday 25th June 19:45
legzr1 said:
L
RMT have said (and NR and TOCs quietly agree) that government are actively getting involved.
Tories deny it. Tory no-ones put themselves in front of camera and repeat the briefing.
It culminates in M Lynch making another Tory look an absolute fking idiot on Question Time.
Any of that not clear?
Ermm you are talking union talk again.RMT have said (and NR and TOCs quietly agree) that government are actively getting involved.
Tories deny it. Tory no-ones put themselves in front of camera and repeat the briefing.
It culminates in M Lynch making another Tory look an absolute f
king idiot on Question Time. Any of that not clear?
The government issued this pretty clear statement.
""the Department for Transport (DfT) says employers have been able to negotiate freely but “with clear direction from government about the modernisation that needs to be achieved""
To normal intelligent people, it is clear the government and "Tory party" (who I dispise ,probably as equally as unions) have a very vested interested, as pointed out ad nauseam. The budget was set for network rail at 4.7 billion, that isn't being increased.
Any of THAT not clear, seems clear to me.
Edited by Ouroboros on Saturday 25th June 20:36
Ouroboros said:
Ermm you are talking union talk again, bs outsiders.
The government issued this pretty clear statement.
""the Department for Transport (DfT) says employers have been able to negotiate freely but “with clear direction from government about the modernisation that needs to be achieved""
To normal intelligent people, it is clear the government and "Tory party" (who I dispise ,probably as equally as unions) have a very vested interested, as pointed out ad nauseam.
Any of THAT not clear, seems clear to me.
Jesus…The government issued this pretty clear statement.
""the Department for Transport (DfT) says employers have been able to negotiate freely but “with clear direction from government about the modernisation that needs to be achieved""
To normal intelligent people, it is clear the government and "Tory party" (who I dispise ,probably as equally as unions) have a very vested interested, as pointed out ad nauseam.
Any of THAT not clear, seems clear to me.
Modernisation has been and will be discussed. NR happy. RMT happy. TOCs happy.
Then CR is thrown on the table yet again.
Why?
Take that threat away, stop interfering and allow RMT to progress just as ASLEF and TSSA have.
Funny little stories from 16 years ago may still irk you but have little bearing on current issues.
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