RMT union vote for a national rail strike
Discussion
legzr1 said:
Ouroboros said:
Ermm you are talking union talk again, bs outsiders.
The government issued this pretty clear statement.
""the Department for Transport (DfT) says employers have been able to negotiate freely but “with clear direction from government about the modernisation that needs to be achieved""
To normal intelligent people, it is clear the government and "Tory party" (who I dispise ,probably as equally as unions) have a very vested interested, as pointed out ad nauseam.
Any of THAT not clear, seems clear to me.
Jesus…The government issued this pretty clear statement.
""the Department for Transport (DfT) says employers have been able to negotiate freely but “with clear direction from government about the modernisation that needs to be achieved""
To normal intelligent people, it is clear the government and "Tory party" (who I dispise ,probably as equally as unions) have a very vested interested, as pointed out ad nauseam.
Any of THAT not clear, seems clear to me.
Modernisation has been and will be discussed. NR happy. RMT happy. TOCs happy.
Then CR is thrown on the table yet again.
Why?
Take that threat away, stop interfering and allow RMT to progress just as ASLEF and TSSA have.
Funny little stories from 16 years ago may still irk you but have little bearing on current issues.
We aren’t stupid, we get that the RMT wants CR off the table, then it will agree a pay rise and working towards modernisation, then, when modernisation plans are proposed, they will say “no” and it all starts again.
It’s like they, and you, think everyone is stupid. We see what is going on.
Many of us seem to keep saying the same thing - but then end up going around in circles again.
Let's try some alternative wording:-
A.......The government is, effectively, pulling the strings - and have every right to do so. It matters not one jot if it's down to Boris or Sunak.
B.......Compulsory Redundancy should always be on the table and may yet be needed.
C......The RMT need to agree changes to Terms & Conditions. What can be agreed should then determine whether CR/VR is needed - and a pay increase relevant to the significance and efficiences achieved can then be finalised.
D........There's no point in the RMT ranting on about the past 12 years, or how negotiators avoided CR in the past. That's just history - and the situation and personnel is now different.
E........Boris + co have no need to rush, it probably suits them to prolong any battle with the RMT. Train passengers only make up about 10% of the UK population and many can now easily work from home, or drive.
Let's try some alternative wording:-
A.......The government is, effectively, pulling the strings - and have every right to do so. It matters not one jot if it's down to Boris or Sunak.
B.......Compulsory Redundancy should always be on the table and may yet be needed.
C......The RMT need to agree changes to Terms & Conditions. What can be agreed should then determine whether CR/VR is needed - and a pay increase relevant to the significance and efficiences achieved can then be finalised.
D........There's no point in the RMT ranting on about the past 12 years, or how negotiators avoided CR in the past. That's just history - and the situation and personnel is now different.
E........Boris + co have no need to rush, it probably suits them to prolong any battle with the RMT. Train passengers only make up about 10% of the UK population and many can now easily work from home, or drive.
Vasco said:
To move on a bit, and trying to be realistic.
Now that we've had 3 days of strikes there's all the obvious debates about how effective it was, plus the inevitable tales of woe highlighted by the media.
On the other hand it seems that a good many mainline trains were still running on strike days.
I'm not at all clear as to whether the action has made much real difference to the negotiations, but at least more of the public have become aware of the union's concerns (and many have said that Lynch was refreshingly clear).
As an outside bystander I'd guess that nothing very much has actually changed and it will be interesting to see if the RMT feels that further strikes will help them.
Am I being naive, biased, argumentative ??
I think today’s strike will have focussed minds the most of all. It perhaps disrupted passengers the least, but pretty much all engineering work of any scale planned for this weekend has been cancelled, and can’t just be done next week instead as critical resources will have already been allocated for next weekend’s works and anything needed supporting timetable alternations needs months of planning too.Now that we've had 3 days of strikes there's all the obvious debates about how effective it was, plus the inevitable tales of woe highlighted by the media.
On the other hand it seems that a good many mainline trains were still running on strike days.
I'm not at all clear as to whether the action has made much real difference to the negotiations, but at least more of the public have become aware of the union's concerns (and many have said that Lynch was refreshingly clear).
As an outside bystander I'd guess that nothing very much has actually changed and it will be interesting to see if the RMT feels that further strikes will help them.
Am I being naive, biased, argumentative ??
Edited by Gareth1974 on Saturday 25th June 22:49
Ouroboros said:
For the umpteenth time, the railways are on the government books, they are up to the eyeballs in debt, they have ever right to start questioning as it is the tax payer paying for the billions going down the pan.
I see your posts and have never seen such a blinkered viewpoint in my life.
The facts are 16 billion MORE costs on the railway in TWO the last two years. 5 billion emergency funding to TfL. This was added to the 50 billion debt.
I can guarantee you, the government with 2 trillion in debt, cannot and will not keep pumping billions into the money pit that the railway is currently.
The pigheadedness of the unions saying that the government should fully fund the railway, well there are clearly limits. It isn't a bubble.
The government seems happy to keep adding to the debt, countless schemes are taking place which will never pay for themselves though fares, but are deemed to be of societal benefit, like many others before them which have contributed to the debt. Every new scheme makes it that bit harder for the railway as a whole to pay for itself.I see your posts and have never seen such a blinkered viewpoint in my life.
The facts are 16 billion MORE costs on the railway in TWO the last two years. 5 billion emergency funding to TfL. This was added to the 50 billion debt.
I can guarantee you, the government with 2 trillion in debt, cannot and will not keep pumping billions into the money pit that the railway is currently.
The pigheadedness of the unions saying that the government should fully fund the railway, well there are clearly limits. It isn't a bubble.
Things like this https://www.railadvent.co.uk/2022/06/reopening-of-...
The thing is this situation is who will blink first. The government has spunked a s
t tonne of money so can justify not settling to the demands. The union can't. If the union blinks first that it has become moribund to it's members, and the members are 100k a year down to 20k a year which will be a problem, and just the start of changes.
My money is on the government winning his battle.
t tonne of money so can justify not settling to the demands. The union can't. If the union blinks first that it has become moribund to it's members, and the members are 100k a year down to 20k a year which will be a problem, and just the start of changes.My money is on the government winning his battle.
Ouroboros said:
legzr1 said:
I really wish those in government trying to push an agenda would just butt out and leave them to negotiate a deal.
For the umpteenth time, the railways are on the government books, they are up to the eyeballs in debt, they have ever right to start questioning as it is the tax payer paying for the billions going down the pan.I am not quite sure how the government is supposed to "butt-out" when it will need to pay for any settlement, whether that be to fund pay rises or to preserve current practices when the railways are loss making.
valiant said:
The government could have quite easily shut the railways down during covid and furloughed all the staff and save billions. It chose on day 1 of lockdown to effectively nationalise the train operating companies (what’s that about privatising profits and nationalising loses 
)
TfL emergency funding are mostly loans and TfL had to run into virtual bankruptcy before the government stepped in and they forced TfL to run a full as timetable as possible - no covid timetables on the tube). Who playing politics now?
And besides, £16bn on a £2tn debt is absolutely nothing, it doesn’t even register when compared to the nations debt especially as Rishi wrote off over £5bn of bad covid loans without much thought and just recently lost £11bn as well as all the other enormous covid costs that make the railway costs look like chicken feed.
The attitude that government spending doesn't matter is what has got us into this mess. The deficit is already significantly higher than forecast and debt interest costs are rising sharply and it will likely only get worse from here on out. )TfL emergency funding are mostly loans and TfL had to run into virtual bankruptcy before the government stepped in and they forced TfL to run a full as timetable as possible - no covid timetables on the tube). Who playing politics now?
And besides, £16bn on a £2tn debt is absolutely nothing, it doesn’t even register when compared to the nations debt especially as Rishi wrote off over £5bn of bad covid loans without much thought and just recently lost £11bn as well as all the other enormous covid costs that make the railway costs look like chicken feed.
It is also the scale of Covid spending that were the final nails in the coffin of why we are in such a bad place. Cheered on all the way by the MSM and many posters on here.
Edited by JagLover on Sunday 26th June 07:09
Ouroboros said:
The budget was set for network rail at 4.7 billion, that isn't being increased.
Interesting to look at this in the context of the total costs for the industrygov said:
Franchised train operator staff costs were £3.6 billion in 2020-21
gov said:
Network Rail’s staff expenditure in 2020-21 was £2.7 billion
https://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/media/2036/rail-industry-finance-uk-statistical-release-2020-21.pdfHaven't gone through everything and perhaps some staff costs are in other categories or contractors are excluded, but this seems to be the number from a quick look.
An extra 5% pay rise, with no changes in staff numbers, would therefore cost over £300m on this rough calculation basis. If agreement could be reached on reallocating redundant roles then likely more could be paid while still keeping the subsidy payment the same.
legzr1 said:
Jesus…
Modernisation has been and will be discussed. NR happy. RMT happy. TOCs happy.
Then CR is thrown on the table yet again.
Why?
Take that threat away, stop interfering and allow RMT to progress just as ASLEF and TSSA have.
Funny little stories from 16 years ago may still irk you but have little bearing on current issues.
This is just the last post from you I could find so not really related.Modernisation has been and will be discussed. NR happy. RMT happy. TOCs happy.
Then CR is thrown on the table yet again.
Why?
Take that threat away, stop interfering and allow RMT to progress just as ASLEF and TSSA have.
Funny little stories from 16 years ago may still irk you but have little bearing on current issues.
How do you know the government is involved, you keep saying they are interfering but every public announcement is that they aren't, so why do you think they are?
Gareth1974 said:
The government seems happy to keep adding to the debt, countless schemes are taking place which will never pay for themselves though fares, but are deemed to be of societal benefit, like many others before them which have contributed to the debt. Every new scheme makes it that bit harder for the railway as a whole to pay for itself.
Things like this https://www.railadvent.co.uk/2022/06/reopening-of-...
There isn't a railway in the world that makes a profit from the revenue generated from fares and freight income (and I mean a real profit once you take into account ALL operating costs).Things like this https://www.railadvent.co.uk/2022/06/reopening-of-...
Trains are seen as a loss-leader for the economy in general. They transport the workers around that keep the economy spinning and the roads clearer.
JagLover said:
Ouroboros said:
The budget was set for network rail at 4.7 billion, that isn't being increased.
Interesting to look at this in the context of the total costs for the industrygov said:
Franchised train operator staff costs were £3.6 billion in 2020-21
gov said:
Network Rail’s staff expenditure in 2020-21 was £2.7 billion
https://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/media/2036/rail-industry-finance-uk-statistical-release-2020-21.pdfHaven't gone through everything and perhaps some staff costs are in other categories or contractors are excluded, but this seems to be the number from a quick look.
An extra 5% pay rise, with no changes in staff numbers, would therefore cost over £300m on this rough calculation basis. If agreement could be reached on reallocating redundant roles then likely more could be paid while still keeping the subsidy payment the same.
I do like Mick's abity to take,err, tge mick
After Piers Morgan made an tit of himself trying to engineer some point using Mick's Facebook profile pic, he changed it to one of Piers with Ghislaine Maxwell.
After he handed Kay Burley her arse on a plate after she tried to insinute a peaceful picket line of 6 would descend into Oregreave, he was sporting a vintage Coal not Dole lapel sticker in his interviews yesterday..
JagLover said:
Gareth1974 said:
Network rail is now considered part of the public sector and any notional "profit" it makes is after public subsidy.Network rail received £6.6bn directly in 2020/21
On the other end, the TOCs etc (half of which are part owned by foreign governments) are raking it in. The contracts are win-win.
The £16bn that the government says it threw at Network Rail during the pandemic was to keep these nutty contracts afloat. The staff didn't see a penny, they were all either at work or WFH.
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