RMT union vote for a national rail strike
Discussion
legzr1 said:
Cobnapint said:
It would have been the railways comeback moment had the government not chosen to use the pandemic as a reason to attack pay, conditions, and coming up in 2024, the pension.
The government are behaving as if all railway workers should be on their knees, clasping their hands together in gratefulness that Westminster threw £16bn at the railway during Covid.
This is a complete twisting of the facts. The money was to replace the money lost in fare revenue.
The staff worked through it, many catching Covid in the process, to keep much needed freight on the move and the skeleton passenger service.
Each member of staff received a glowing thank you from the top man. Everybody knew what was coming next.
You do realise that factual responses to dumb posts only results in further dumb posts don’t you?The government are behaving as if all railway workers should be on their knees, clasping their hands together in gratefulness that Westminster threw £16bn at the railway during Covid.
This is a complete twisting of the facts. The money was to replace the money lost in fare revenue.
The staff worked through it, many catching Covid in the process, to keep much needed freight on the move and the skeleton passenger service.
Each member of staff received a glowing thank you from the top man. Everybody knew what was coming next.
Ouroboros said:
Reminds me of the virgin train drivers who when they retire got 100% pensions.
"But what about my overtime payments".
Basically moaning that because it didn't include overtime payments only salary. Used to make me laugh how good they had it, whilst millions in the real world struggle with real problems.
Nearly as good as the drivers who when suspended for a incident, would upon their return to work, claim for all the overtime they would have worked , if they had not been suspended."But what about my overtime payments".
Basically moaning that because it didn't include overtime payments only salary. Used to make me laugh how good they had it, whilst millions in the real world struggle with real problems.
And they got it.
But this is not about the drivers.
rigga said:
Nearly as good as the drivers who when suspended for a incident, would upon their return to work, claim for all the overtime they would have worked , if they had not been suspended.
And they got it.
But this is not about the drivers.
just highlights the mentality of the workers mindset.And they got it.
But this is not about the drivers.
Ouroboros said:
Reminds me of the virgin train drivers who when they retire got 100% pensions.
"But what about my overtime payments".
Basically moaning that because it didn't include overtime payments only salary. Used to make me laugh how good they had it, whilst millions in the real world struggle with real problems.
The train drivers you're taking about ARE living in the real world with real world problems. They don't finish a shift and go home to languish by their poolside bar in a posh Surrey gated estate you know."But what about my overtime payments".
Basically moaning that because it didn't include overtime payments only salary. Used to make me laugh how good they had it, whilst millions in the real world struggle with real problems.
Taking a train full of commuters up the WCML at 140mph isn't a walk in the park. It demands a little bit more nous than delivering Amazon parcels or pizza leaflets or cleaning the bogs.
It's shift work and a safety critical role with high levels of training and very strict working practices. He earns every penny, unlike some of the Prima Donnas we're happy to watch kicking a football about every weekend.
bad company said:
legzr1 said:
He’s editor of the left wing Tribune Magazine. That poll is highly suspect at best.Support or oppose strike?
Support 25%
Oppose 39%
Appropriate time or not?
Appropriate 24%
Inappropriate 49%
11% pay rise reasonable or not?
Reasonable 26%
Unreasonable 52%
11% rise affordable?
Affordable 17%
Unaffordable 57%
YouGov
FiF said:
JagLover said:
egomeister said:
Changes to maintenance schedules don't necessarily have to be at the cost of safety.
I can't speak for the proposed changes in this case, but if you take the example of something like a bearing you can see how this might work (and in fact improve safety and reliability). Conventionally a bearing might be serviced or replaced on a miles or hours basis, but with modern tech it's performance can now be monitored live allowing you to carry out maintenance based on condition rather than time as an approximation for condition.
The politicians may be lying of course but they are saying that under the current rules you have to send a team out to fix a problem that could be fixed by one person. I can't speak for the proposed changes in this case, but if you take the example of something like a bearing you can see how this might work (and in fact improve safety and reliability). Conventionally a bearing might be serviced or replaced on a miles or hours basis, but with modern tech it's performance can now be monitored live allowing you to carry out maintenance based on condition rather than time as an approximation for condition.
The real world example given was if you needed three people to come and fit a new washing machine, each to perform a different role.
That very much sounds like extra costs caused by union demarcation rules rather than proposals to save money by skimping on essential maintenance.
If these allegations aren't true then a rebuttal is presumably forthcoming.
In previous working positions many of us have been sent to work in different cities, regions, even countries. If you didn't want to do it and prepared to work under the terms offered the location of the exit door was very evident.
Cobnapint said:
So if a member of your close family were killed or significantly injured in a train crash and the inquiry reported that there were deficiencies in the maintenance regime carried out on the set of points or level crossing responsible, you'd sit back and take one for the team would you...?
Certainly would. We've all got to go sometime and rail - along with aviation - is a very safe system.
The numbers - not the emotion you are keen on to justify jobs - show that
other transport systems are far more risky.
I'd guess that a teenager with a new motorbike has to be one of the most
dangerous forms of transport. Teenagers and Motorbikes don't get banned.
Ouroboros said:
Reminds me of the virgin train drivers who when they retire got 100% pensions.
"But what about my overtime payments".
Basically moaning that because it didn't include overtime payments only salary. Used to make me laugh how good they had it, whilst millions in the real world struggle with real problems.
Makes me wonder why you didn’t apply for the role when you were stuck in that backward maintenance shed all those years ago?"But what about my overtime payments".
Basically moaning that because it didn't include overtime payments only salary. Used to make me laugh how good they had it, whilst millions in the real world struggle with real problems.
Isn’t that the PhBubble answer to everything? Don’t like it? p
s off and ‘better’ yourself?Or maybe I’ve misread NP&E in general, this thread in particular…
FiF said:
And as posted previously
Support or oppose strike?
Support 25%
Oppose 39%
Appropriate time or not?
Appropriate 24%
Inappropriate 49%
11% pay rise reasonable or not?
Reasonable 26%
Unreasonable 52%
11% rise affordable?
Affordable 17%
Unaffordable 57%
YouGov
Are we allowed to average the polls, take a median figure and proclaim that the result?Support or oppose strike?
Support 25%
Oppose 39%
Appropriate time or not?
Appropriate 24%
Inappropriate 49%
11% pay rise reasonable or not?
Reasonable 26%
Unreasonable 52%
11% rise affordable?
Affordable 17%
Unaffordable 57%
YouGov
Or can that only happen when discussing the wages of rail staff to include huge swathes of high page workers not even balloted for action?
Legacywr said:
FiF said:
JagLover said:
egomeister said:
Changes to maintenance schedules don't necessarily have to be at the cost of safety.
I can't speak for the proposed changes in this case, but if you take the example of something like a bearing you can see how this might work (and in fact improve safety and reliability). Conventionally a bearing might be serviced or replaced on a miles or hours basis, but with modern tech it's performance can now be monitored live allowing you to carry out maintenance based on condition rather than time as an approximation for condition.
The politicians may be lying of course but they are saying that under the current rules you have to send a team out to fix a problem that could be fixed by one person. I can't speak for the proposed changes in this case, but if you take the example of something like a bearing you can see how this might work (and in fact improve safety and reliability). Conventionally a bearing might be serviced or replaced on a miles or hours basis, but with modern tech it's performance can now be monitored live allowing you to carry out maintenance based on condition rather than time as an approximation for condition.
The real world example given was if you needed three people to come and fit a new washing machine, each to perform a different role.
That very much sounds like extra costs caused by union demarcation rules rather than proposals to save money by skimping on essential maintenance.
If these allegations aren't true then a rebuttal is presumably forthcoming.
In previous working positions many of us have been sent to work in different cities, regions, even countries. If you didn't want to do it and prepared to work under the terms offered the location of the exit door was very evident.
Signalling is incredibly complex and, as with Kings Cross, bespoke to the area. You HAVE to be totally competent with the equipment and completely familiar with the track layout and geometry. Not everything can be fixed by Dave with a lump hammer.
There’s a case for training up the Euston mob but then they have to be continually recertified for what would be a rare event and the economics don’t really work and you’d lose staff as they went for retraining every six months.
dcb said:
Certainly would. We've all got to go sometime and rail - along with aviation -
is a very safe system.
The numbers - not the emotion you are keen on to justify jobs - show that
other transport systems are far more risky.
I'd guess that a teenager with a new motorbike has to be one of the most
dangerous forms of transport. Teenagers and Motorbikes don't get banned.
And you honestly think it’s a good idea to pull back on safety of the line after all the deaths, all the updated rules and regulations, the £millions spent on training and education and the excellent progress made to make rail in the UK one of the safest forms of transport?is a very safe system.
The numbers - not the emotion you are keen on to justify jobs - show that
other transport systems are far more risky.
I'd guess that a teenager with a new motorbike has to be one of the most
dangerous forms of transport. Teenagers and Motorbikes don't get banned.
Why?
Because grrr union! ?
Your teenager / motorcycle analogy…
30 years ago you could just rock up with a helmet, a mates 250cc bike and ride around the block. Manage that without serious injury or death and you had your licence. On to the 1300cc monsters the same day if insurance was affordable/available.
Lots died. Countless laws then introduced whereby most teenagers look at the hassle, time and costs now involved and just don’t bother.
Your suggestion to save money on DVLA examiners would be to take away the legislation introduced the increase safety because you could live with the consequences?
JagLover said:
The politicians may be lying of course but they are saying that under the current rules you have to send a team out to fix a problem that could be fixed by one person.
The real world example given was if you needed three people to come and fit a new washing machine, each to perform a different role.
That very much sounds like extra costs caused by union demarcation rules rather than proposals to save money by skimping on essential maintenance.
Try fixing your washing machine inches from a high speed train line and tell me you wouldn’t like to have an extra body to a)warn the train driver that you’re near the track and b) warn you of a train is coming so you can move to a place of safety.The real world example given was if you needed three people to come and fit a new washing machine, each to perform a different role.
That very much sounds like extra costs caused by union demarcation rules rather than proposals to save money by skimping on essential maintenance.
bad company said:
He’s editor of the left wing Tribune Magazine. That poll is highly suspect at best.
Makes you wonder why they’re used by Unilever, Barclays and Government Equalities amongst others doesn’t it?Are you going to pick fault only on polls that don’t align with your prejudice?
Maybe you have another half-arsed, inaccurate and silly little meme to back up your point?
The trouble is the public will not feel sorry for the network Rail strikers.
Irrespective of the details the perception is that trains are expensive and not perfectly run, add a tabloid front page saying drivers earn £70k and the average Joe will have no sympathy.
No one talked about posh houses in Surrey etc… do you think everyone in Surrey lives like that?
For me the strikes are just an unwillingness to make NR more efficient and is about protecting jobs that perhaps are surplus to requirement. Also this chip in the shoulder about people earning more on private companies needs to stop… it’s childish.
I don’t use the train because I don’t need to. Maybe 2-3 times a year so my view is irrelevant. The unions should look after their members but if you do that at the cost of alienating the business customers you are like a turkey voting for Xmas.
They all talk about pay and T&Cs but has any union ever discussed how to improve the service and value for money to the customer… ever?!
Irrespective of the details the perception is that trains are expensive and not perfectly run, add a tabloid front page saying drivers earn £70k and the average Joe will have no sympathy.
No one talked about posh houses in Surrey etc… do you think everyone in Surrey lives like that?
For me the strikes are just an unwillingness to make NR more efficient and is about protecting jobs that perhaps are surplus to requirement. Also this chip in the shoulder about people earning more on private companies needs to stop… it’s childish.
I don’t use the train because I don’t need to. Maybe 2-3 times a year so my view is irrelevant. The unions should look after their members but if you do that at the cost of alienating the business customers you are like a turkey voting for Xmas.
They all talk about pay and T&Cs but has any union ever discussed how to improve the service and value for money to the customer… ever?!
valiant said:
Try fixing your washing machine inches from a high speed train line and tell me you wouldn’t like to have an extra body to a)warn the train driver that you’re near the track and b) warn you of a train is coming so you can move to a place of safety.
Pah!Easy innit?
Mind your head on the 25Kv AC overhead and don’t trip on the 750v DC third rail as you balls up the job on the Hotpoint as you’re trained and passed on the more modern Bosch.
legzr1 said:
Makes me wonder why you didn’t apply for the role when you were stuck in that backward maintenance shed all those years ago?
Isn’t that the PhBubble answer to everything? Don’t like it? ps off and ‘better’ yourself?
Or maybe I’ve misread NP&E in general, this thread in particular…
I would if i had a chance, but i have a long term illness as well as colour blind.Isn’t that the PhBubble answer to everything? Don’t like it? p
s off and ‘better’ yourself?Or maybe I’ve misread NP&E in general, this thread in particular…
There was a shunter/driver on site who had experience etc but was turned down, the people applying to these jobs was massive, as it obviously a very well paid job.
But as pointed out this strike isn't about drivers it is about cleaners through to maintaince and the rest. As i've already stated already, the maintaince crews made up jobs to bill the lease owner to ensure headcounts were kept up, that i saw with my own eyes and one of the reasons i left.
Cobnapint said:
dcb said:
I'd be happy with that. What price safety ? There is a point where
the railways are "safe enough" and more safety effort isn't very beneficial.
There were AFAIK 2 passenger fatalities on National Rail in 2021.
https://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/statistics/health-an...
Numbers could be ten times as many, and it wouldn't make much difference to anything
in a nation of 60 million folks.
For reference, IIRC about 1,700 die on UK roads every year and no one fusses enough
to avoid driving. It's a reasonable risk.
RMT need to stop trying to achieve perfection at any tax payer funded price and realise
their members live in the real world of reasonable risk.
So if a member of your close family were killed or significantly injured in a train crash and the inquiry reported that there were deficiencies in the maintenance regime carried out on the set of points or level crossing responsible, you'd sit back and take one for the team would you...?the railways are "safe enough" and more safety effort isn't very beneficial.
There were AFAIK 2 passenger fatalities on National Rail in 2021.
https://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/statistics/health-an...
Numbers could be ten times as many, and it wouldn't make much difference to anything
in a nation of 60 million folks.
For reference, IIRC about 1,700 die on UK roads every year and no one fusses enough
to avoid driving. It's a reasonable risk.
RMT need to stop trying to achieve perfection at any tax payer funded price and realise
their members live in the real world of reasonable risk.
Thought not.
It may well be that some work practices could be improved, streamlined, or are no longer necessary. It might also be that gradual changes and practices over many years mean that we actually need even better/tighter controls over a few items. Times change, and safety procedures shouldn't lag behind.
I would assume that the best people to make a reasoned and balanced judgement of safety vs costs should be those senior NR managers paid (well) to take on those responsibilities - in conjunction with subordinates who have routine practical experience.
Ouroboros said:
But as pointed out this strike isn't about drivers it is about cleaners through to maintaince and the rest. As i've already stated already, the maintaince crews made up jobs to bill the lease owner to ensure headcounts were kept up, that i saw with my own eyes and one of the reasons i left.
t with poor staff even if we’re talking about 16 years ago.But, the bit I’ve quoted is important - you agree this is nothing to do with drivers and, yet, feel the need to post another story about drivers.
It does nothing to further any debate.
All it does it cloud the issues and leaves the uninformed judging a whole industry.
I think it was deliberate in certain sections of news and social media in the weeks leading up to this.
Vasco said:
I would assume that the best people to make a reasoned and balanced judgement of safety vs costs should be those senior NR managers paid (well) to take on those responsibilities - in conjunction with subordinates who have routine practical experience.
Always a little dangerous to assume.In the past, senior NR managers (and their earlier counterparts) where paid to ‘reason and balance’ risks.
Some got it wrong.
Some passengers and staff died.
Safety was improved, regulations tightened, laws enacted to make it better.
It’s not perfect.
Have a browse at this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rail_acciden...
As far as I’m aware, every incident was followed by an enquiry, risks reassessed, improvements made.
Are you (and others) seriously suggesting the relaxation of regulation introduced precisely to save life and prevent serious life-changing injuries?
And to entrust those cuts to the same body in charge during all the other major incidents? The same body answerable to this current Government and DfT?
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