RMT union vote for a national rail strike

[dcb]

Talksteer said:

The big issue is that we never moved away from rail in the first place, cars didn't replace rail they massively expanded transport.

https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/assets.eti.co.u...

Worth bookmarking and sending to anyone who has the idea that a shift from road to rail is in anyway feasible.

Interesting report.

I had the recent experience of costing a return journey of some 420 miles for two people.
Trains £120 each, so £240, petrol for the car £60.

Of course, there are far more costs to running a car than petrol, but it looks like a no brainer
to use the car. Certainly, I don't care about CO2, the UK is about 1% of the world's population
and so insignificant in the big picture.

RMT can strike if they like, I will use the car more. Many of us now WFH, so the effect
of their strike will be reduced substantially. Only those folks who *have* to use the train
and can't WFH, will be badly affected.

[Gerradi]

williamp said:

Utter, utter nonsense. Greedy communist unions are a much bigger cause, but there are many

Not to mention GREEDY Directors who run the companies with Goverment subsides to build them up to then sell it off creaming vast profits for themselves after you & I have paid my had earned tax £ into them WUTTERLY WUTTERLY AWFUL...

[SmoothCriminal]

Why is everything compared to nurses, gp's and the bloated NHS if they don't like the job or its not paid well enough then like posters are suggesting rail staff do they should go get another job.

Most GP'S probably earn more than 95% of members of the RMT seeing as tho salaried gp's (not the money making partners) earn £62,268 to £93,965 according to NHS England.

[otolith]

SmoothCriminal said:

Most GP'S probably earn more than 95% of members of the RMT

Anyone would think that you need to be an academic high achiever and to spend years at medical school and being shat on as a junior doctor before you get to earn more than someone working on the railway.

SmoothCriminal said:

seeing as tho salaried gp's (not the money making partners) earn 62,268 to 93,965 according to NHS England.

You might be surprised at how little some partners earn, it's quite variable between practices - in many cases it's a much worse deal than being salaried, and recruiting and retaining partners is increasingly difficult.

[faa77]

2xChevrons said:

faa77 said:

They replied and implied driving a train is not simple. I'm not researching someone else's point.

So what's difficult?

Edited by faa77 on Thursday 26th May 14:54

faa77 said:

They replied and implied driving a train is not simple. I'm not researching someone else's point.

So what's difficult?

Edited by faa77 on Thursday 26th May 14:54

faa77 said:

They replied and implied it's not simple. I'm not researching someone else's point.

So state what's difficult?

In general - people who think that driving a train is just pulling a lever to 'go' and another to 'stop' are operating on about the same level of insight as those who think that airliner pilots don't have to do anything because it's all done by autopilot these days. I hope no one would say that flying a Airbus A380 wasn't without skill, risk, judgement or difficulty.

More specifically:

Train drivers have to 'sign' for both a route and a type of traction (the specific model of train). Signing a route means the driver is fully conversant with every yard of track, the location and amount of every change in speed limit, the location, type, number and meaning of every signal, the location, designation and number of every set of points, the location and number of every platform, the name and length of every tunnel, the location and type of every crossing, every change in gradient (and what that gradient is) and so on. And that includes all the passing loops, every running line and all possible routings through stations - it's no good only knowing the 'proper' route up a main line if there's a diversion one day and you're routed onto another one.

Here's an old route-learning video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANKeWdBylHs - this one's fairly short but everything the narrator mentions has to be memorised and understood. And drivers can end up having to know routes hundreds of miles long, and can sign for multiple routes at once. As well as all these fixed features, route knowledge includes knowing the braking points (when to decelerate or brake - and by how much - for stations, junctions or speed limit changes), and the location of bridges, tunnels, wayside structures and even distinctive bumps or humps in the line, wobbly bits of track and so on so they can be sure of exactly where they are (and, therefore, where they are in relation to crucial things like signals and speed restrictions) even if they're driving completely blind in a thick fog or a dark night. They have to know where, say, traffic lights and street lamps could be confused with railway signals, and how other trains on other running tracks will appear, so they don't get a heart-stopping moment as they round a curve and see a train and a taillight seemingly right in front of them - it's actually on an adjacent running line but the curvature of the track makes it seem directly ahead. I've seen some drivers' route-learning notes that included notes of sounds and smells from trackside factories, farms etc.

Signing for 'traction' is like type rating for aircraft - it means the driver is fully conversant with the technical aspects of the unit, what its limitations are, how its systems work; does it have EP brakes, twin-pipe Westinghouse brakes, selectable air or vacuum brakes, blended air and dynamic braking, separate air and dynamic braking? Does it have distinct power and brake notches or are they infinitely variable? Does it have automatic sanding and/or automatic wheelslip detection? Can you just throw the power handle wide open from a standing start or will that pop a breaker? Does it have multiple working gear - what sort and with what other traction can it work? How is it coupled? How do you prepare the unit from 'cold and dark' and how do you shut it down safely? What safety and train control systems does it have? How are they isolated if they're faulty or reset if they're triggered? What faultfinding/limp home techniques do you need to know, and what failures are beyond a driver's ability to deal with out on the line? And so on and on and on and on.

And that's all before you get to the skills and challenges of actually driving the thing. You could be eating up distance at over two miles per minute, having to keep your mind a good five or ten miles ahead of where you actually are to make sure you run exactly at the timetabled speed while staying safe for the weather, track and traffic conditions. You could be doing some high-intensity commuter belt work where hitting every braking point at the exact right speed with the exact right amount of brake to bring the front of the unit to a smooth stop directly in align with the stopping board at the end of the platform is key to keeping up to time. Or you could be running a 2400-ton freight train over a line with a 'saw tooth' gradient profile, leaving one end of the train going downhill while the other is still going up hill, and having to judge the amount of power required at any given time to keep the couplings taught, but not over-tensioned. Or keeping the same train under control down a long 1-in-100 bank, always keeping in mind that you've only got enough air in the brake system for three, maybe five, good brake applications and you can't modulate them up and down - you have to fully release the brakes before re-applying them.

That's still not touching on even a decent fraction of the technical skills and challenges that can face a train crew, let alone all the adjacent safety-critical procedural stuff. To return to my airliner analogy, it can look very easy to an outsider when it's all going well, but when it all goes wrong is when the human operator earns the big bucks.

I'm not a train driver, either. I've been fortunate enough to talk to a good many railwaymen and I have an interest in how things - rail, road, sea, air - work. I'd like to think I've something of an appreciation for what's required.

Here's a job spec:

https://www.firstgroupcareers.com/vacancy/lumo-cus...

This seems a pretty accessible career to anyone who isn't a complete ****/has their head screwed on.

[2xChevrons]

Sorry about the wall-o-duplicate-quotes in my original post - now removed.

faa77 said:

Here's a job spec:

https://www.firstgroupcareers.com/vacancy/lumo-cus...

This seems a pretty accessible career to anyone who isn't a complete ****/has their head screwed on.

Job specs have a habit of making things seem simple. One bullet point:

Lumo said:

"Prepare, drive and dispose of traction units safely, using the prescribed techniques as set out in the appropriate instructions."

Hides an awful lot of detail. It basically boils down to "drive the train", which isn't an easy or unskilled thing.

It's like having a job spec for a orthopaedic surgeon say "carry out invasive medical procedures to replace and repair human bone joints using appropriate surgical techniques" All true. Sounds simple. But of course, it's not.

Yes, train driving is a relatively accessible job. There's a reason why it was (and still mostly is) a 'blue collar' role - it is a largely practical job that requires a great deal of learned knowledge and skill but few existing qualifications or abilities. There's a reason why drivers were considered one of the 'elites' of the old working class - it was one of the most skilled, prestigious and secure careers out there for someone of an ordinary background and education. There used to be lots of such jobs in this country - ones which didn't need an academic brain or pre-existing skills but built up a lot of specific skills and knowledge over many years and were fairly rewarded as such. Vocations, in other words. It's a shame that there aren't more of them left, but that's no reason to be bitter about the ones that are.

[CarCrazyDad]

98elise said:

A nurse needs a degree, and is doing a job that involves people lives. It doesn't pay that well becasue enough people want to do it. It is a desirable job at that wage.


Different professions pay more because of the skills required, and the desirability of the work

Rail workers get paid more because they work in a monopoly and can blackmail the country.

If there was any competition unionised rail would fail within a very short space of time.

Unions started out with good intent, but they have developed into a mafia. I'd love to see the back of them.

It isn't desirable. It's hard, long hours, with crap pay.
But it appeals to peoples altruism.

They could sack off virtually all middle management and pay the Nurses the 35k they deserve..

[rxe]

2xChevrons said:

Hides an awful lot of detail. It basically boils down to "drive the train", which isn't an easy or unskilled thing.

It's like having a job spec for a orthopaedic surgeon say "carry out invasive medical procedures to replace and repair human bone joints using appropriate surgical techniques" All true. Sounds simple. But of course, it's not.

Yes, train driving is a relatively accessible job. There's a reason why it was (and still mostly is) a 'blue collar' role - it is a largely practical job that requires a great deal of learned knowledge and skill but few existing qualifications or abilities. There's a reason why drivers were considered one of the 'elites' of the old working class - it was one of the most skilled, prestigious and secure careers out there for someone of an ordinary background and education. There used to be lots of such jobs in this country - ones which didn't need an academic brain or pre-existing skills but built up a lot of specific skills and knowledge over many years and were fairly rewarded as such. Vocations, in other words. It's a shame that there aren't more of them left, but that's no reason to be bitter about the ones that are.

Well the complexity is wrapped up in the “Must hold a European train drivers licence”, The orthopaedic equivalent would be 7 years at med school + suitable experience afterwards.

Here’s the trainee page:

https://www.avantiwestcoast.co.uk/about-us/careers...

Suggests they get 2000 applications a day. Not surprising if you can get to 70k in a few years with zero qualifications at the start. Presumably you have to be able to read, but they don’t actually say that.

[XCP]

Lots of cops leaving the force( who can blame them) and becoming train drivers.

[valiant]

rxe said:

Well the complexity is wrapped up in the “Must hold a European train drivers licence”, The orthopaedic equivalent would be 7 years at med school + suitable experience afterwards.

Here’s the trainee page:

https://www.avantiwestcoast.co.uk/about-us/careers...

Suggests they get 2000 applications a day. Not surprising if you can get to 70k in a few years with zero qualifications at the start. Presumably you have to be able to read, but they don’t actually say that.

Hang on a sec, you said the driving jobs go to mates in the business and yet here you are now with the careers page of a train company describing becoming a trainee train driver.

rxe said:

Train drivers are an aberration. They are less skilled than nurses, and get paid far more. Train driving jobs are so scarce that the general labour market never gets a look in - they’re all grabbed by mates in the business.

Were you wrong before perhaps or do you have issues reading and remembering your own posts?

Edited by valiant on Thursday 26th May 20:15

Edited by valiant on Thursday 26th May 20:16

[ChocolateFrog]

XCP said:

Lots of cops leaving the force( who can blame them) and becoming train drivers.

I reckon cops, prison officers and ex forces make up atleast half if not more of drivers that come in off the street.

Certainly it was 3 out of 4 on my course.

[P5BNij]

ChocolateFrog said:

XCP said:

Lots of cops leaving the force( who can blame them) and becoming train drivers.

I reckon cops, prison officers and ex forces make up atleast half if not more of drivers that come in off the street.

Certainly it was 3 out of 4 on my course.

Over the years at our depot we've had six coppers (one was a high ranking detective), two firemen, two Falklands veterans and two paramedics become drivers, and one of our previous managers was a commercial pilot. On the whole we get some great people come through who are attracted to the job for different reasons and they're very dedicated, but there are a few who get through the entire interview, medical, training and qualifying process who then jack it in after a few weeks because they either don't like being on their own for hours at a time, or they don't enjoy the responsibility. It's a shame really as they're all decent sorts, it must be disheartening for them when they realise it's not for them. No doubt some would say that they should have been weeded out earlier on, but it doesn't always pan out that way, as in any other job.

[2xChevrons]

P5BNij said:

....but there are a few who get through the entire interview, medical, training and qualifying process who then jack it in after a few weeks because they either don't like being on their own for hours at a time, or they don't enjoy the responsibility....

I'd like to just point out that, simultaneous - almost to the minute - with this post, the CEO Pay thread is saying that the high pay is deserved because it's a lonely job with a lot of responsibility on one person.

[Rick101]

I'm not sure why this has got onto the perceived difficulty, or not of driving a train.
This was an RMT ballot, not ASLEF.

I suspect the annoyance is by the usual commentators that like to moan but have little idea of the actual facts of the matter.

[rxe]

valiant said:

Were you wrong before perhaps or do you have issues reading and remembering your own posts?

Edited by valiant on Thursday 26th May 20:15

Edited by valiant on Thursday 26th May 20:16

Certainly that’s the case for tube drivers. And I’d love to see the stats for the number of randoms off the street who get employed without the union blessing.

At the end of the day it is a skilled-ish job that requires zero entry criteria. I have no idea why it should be paid more than say a nurse, who actually has to get a degree.

[legzr1]

Rick101 said:

I suspect the annoyance is by the usual commentators that like to moan but have little idea of the actual facts of the matter.

Driven by ignorance and envy perhaps?

[legzr1]

faa77 said:

They replied and implied driving a train is not simple. I'm not researching someone else's point.

So what's difficult?

Edited by faa77 on Thursday 26th May 14:54

They made a point. If you want to question it, do some research and stop being idle.

I ignored your question because I suspected you have no real interest other than to be hand fed information you can dissect in attempt to prove something.

Prove me wrong.

[CarCrazyDad]

ChocolateFrog said:

It's not that being a driver is hard, it really isn't.

Setting the alarm for 0200 is hard, as is finishing at 0600.

Making a single mistake in a 40 year career that could at worst kill people and land you in jail.

Dealing with the boredom and monotony of driving for upto 8hrs a day over the exact same routes without losing concentration, falling asleep etc etc.

It's reasonably well remunerated for the job that's asked. I'm struggling to think of another blue collar job that hasn't joined the race to the bottom. If it did join the hoardes of 20k a year jobs out there I'd find something else to do.

All of these things are true for health care professionals.

It's a much harder job being a Nurse for example, than a train driver. And yet, paid significantly less.

Swings and roundabouts.

[valiant]

rxe said:

valiant said:

Were you wrong before perhaps or do you have issues reading and remembering your own posts?

Edited by valiant on Thursday 26th May 20:15

Edited by valiant on Thursday 26th May 20:16

Certainly that’s the case for tube drivers. And I’d love to see the stats for the number of randoms off the street who get employed without the union blessing.

At the end of the day it is a skilled-ish job that requires zero entry criteria. I have no idea why it should be paid more than say a nurse, who actually has to get a degree.

Well, as I am a tube driver who was a random off the street who knew no one in the job I’d say you’re still talking ste.

For the record, the Tube has held three recruitment drives for part time drivers specifically for the introduction for Night Tube a few years back where we needed a lot of new drivers quickly. All those drivers are now full time unless they wanted to stay part time.

Union blessing? More ste. Believe it or not, LUL has a Human Resources department that recruits according to a criteria that is set by management. You know, like virtually every single large company out there. Are you really trying to say that the union dictates company recruitment policy?

The Tube does have a habit of recruiting internally but that’s because it has a willing pool of staff waiting who are already known to the company, are used to shift work and the culture and is used as a promotional tool for staff and the system works. Where we don’t get enough internals coming through then an external drive is advertised. This is not unique to the Underground.

Now, is there any other nonsense you wish to impart with us? You’ve been wrong on everything else so don’t stop now.

[Vasco]

CarCrazyDad said:

ChocolateFrog said:

It's not that being a driver is hard, it really isn't.

Setting the alarm for 0200 is hard, as is finishing at 0600.

Making a single mistake in a 40 year career that could at worst kill people and land you in jail.

Dealing with the boredom and monotony of driving for upto 8hrs a day over the exact same routes without losing concentration, falling asleep etc etc.

It's reasonably well remunerated for the job that's asked. I'm struggling to think of another blue collar job that hasn't joined the race to the bottom. If it did join the hoardes of 20k a year jobs out there I'd find something else to do.

All of these things are true for health care professionals.

It's a much harder job being a Nurse for example, than a train driver. And yet, paid significantly less.

Swings and roundabouts.

Of course, the nurse is dedicated to helping others.
Rail staff are dedicated to.....me me me.

The nurse will go out of their way to help their customer.
Rail staff will go out of their way to ignore their customer