RMT union vote for a national rail strike

[legzr1]

Vasco said:

legzr1 said:

Legacywr said:

Where’s the victory here?

Maybe a question better asked of RMT members but for me, a semi-interested outsider, RMT members have gone from facing compulsory redundancies, huge changes in T&Cs for those working ‘on the line’ and a refusal to negotiate or any offers of a pay rise until all terms accepted to what we have now - 5% backdated, no ticket office closures, a relaxing of the threat of swathing cuts to on-the-line workers and, with a bit of luck, a return to normality for paying customers (as far as is possible with the railways…).

All it’s taken is a few different PMs, a couple of transport ministers and a large social media campaign to keep offices open.

It’s been fun to watch yet another Tory government rip itself to pieces whist union members with strong leadership have stuck together.

Some, including yourself perhaps, will hate this.
Nevermind.

Well played RMT.
Well played Mick Lynch.

No U turn. No victory. Nothing to see here…

In all honesty, I guess that many people will (rightly) judge the government's actions to be less than ideal - too many involved, too little forethought, too keen to break the mould etc.


.

Something we can agree on.

One of the main disrupters being a certain Mr Shapps, I wonder how he’s getting on these days?

The stupid thing about this entire dispute is something predicted over 100 pages back on this thread - if a pig-headed, ignorant government would drop the demands for wholesale redundancies and closures and make a sensible pay offer this could have all been settled months/years ago.

A Tory government looking and sounding like ignorant militants and way, way out of their depth vs a Union leader with a clear,concise approach able to bat away the many, many idiots from DfT and certain sections of the press.

Strange old world…

Southerner said:

I think the rail unions’ cause has been bolstered significantly this time by the widespread strike action from various other, unrelated workforces over the same period. The usual “greedy railway workers” line is a lot less powerful when you’ve also got teachers, nurses & various other assorted NHS people, driving examiners etc etc all going out as well. The teachers in particular have also arguably outstripped rail in the ‘directly inconveniencing the public’ stakes; which obviously is the whole point and entirely necessary; again that will have dampened the usual anger and disdain aimed at the rail strikes. You also had the government hiding behind the Rail Delivery Group and telling blatant lies about how it all had nothing to do with them, and constantly being very publically outed by Mick Lynch for doing so. Finally, the government cocked up big time with the ticket offices, wholesale closures en masse was straight out of the “Tories of 1980s” playbook and did them no favours at all; utterly stupid idea.

So on balance, I think it makes sense that there has been far more support this time around. Of course, when it happens all over again next year, it might be a different story!

A fair assessment.

ASLEF will have a more difficult task in convincing the majority of people that this current action is necessary.
It’s one thing RMT members battling to save their jobs and livelihoods, quite another when (imho) fairly well-paid drivers are demanding significant pay rises.

[Vasco]

legzr1 said:

Vasco said:

legzr1 said:

Legacywr said:

Where’s the victory here?

Maybe a question better asked of RMT members but for me, a semi-interested outsider, RMT members have gone from facing compulsory redundancies, huge changes in T&Cs for those working ‘on the line’ and a refusal to negotiate or any offers of a pay rise until all terms accepted to what we have now - 5% backdated, no ticket office closures, a relaxing of the threat of swathing cuts to on-the-line workers and, with a bit of luck, a return to normality for paying customers (as far as is possible with the railways…).

All it’s taken is a few different PMs, a couple of transport ministers and a large social media campaign to keep offices open.

It’s been fun to watch yet another Tory government rip itself to pieces whist union members with strong leadership have stuck together.

Some, including yourself perhaps, will hate this.
Nevermind.

Well played RMT.
Well played Mick Lynch.

No U turn. No victory. Nothing to see here…

In all honesty, I guess that many people will (rightly) judge the government's actions to be less than ideal - too many involved, too little forethought, too keen to break the mould etc.


.

Something we can agree on.

One of the main disrupters being a certain Mr Shapps, I wonder how he’s getting on these days?

The stupid thing about this entire dispute is something predicted over 100 pages back on this thread - if a pig-headed, ignorant government would drop the demands for wholesale redundancies and closures and make a sensible pay offer this could have all been settled months/years ago.

A Tory government looking and sounding like ignorant militants and way, way out of their depth vs a Union leader with a clear,concise approach able to bat away the many, many idiots from DfT and certain sections of the press.

Strange old world…

Southerner said:

I think the rail unions’ cause has been bolstered significantly this time by the widespread strike action from various other, unrelated workforces over the same period. The usual “greedy railway workers” line is a lot less powerful when you’ve also got teachers, nurses & various other assorted NHS people, driving examiners etc etc all going out as well. The teachers in particular have also arguably outstripped rail in the ‘directly inconveniencing the public’ stakes; which obviously is the whole point and entirely necessary; again that will have dampened the usual anger and disdain aimed at the rail strikes. You also had the government hiding behind the Rail Delivery Group and telling blatant lies about how it all had nothing to do with them, and constantly being very publically outed by Mick Lynch for doing so. Finally, the government cocked up big time with the ticket offices, wholesale closures en masse was straight out of the “Tories of 1980s” playbook and did them no favours at all; utterly stupid idea.

So on balance, I think it makes sense that there has been far more support this time around. Of course, when it happens all over again next year, it might be a different story!

A fair assessment.

ASLEF will have a more difficult task in convincing the majority of people that this current action is necessary.
It’s one thing RMT members battling to save their jobs and livelihoods, quite another when (imho) fairly well-paid drivers are demanding significant pay rises.

You see, we can agree - sometimes...

Only a couple of points..... of course it would be heavy going for anybody to get [seemingly necessary] changes to T+Cs through, but making it integral to a pay award was not so silly. It will always be difficult, particularly when dealing with very 'traditional (i.e old fashioned....) Trade Unions.

I respect Lynch as someone highly knowledgeable in his subject matter (as indeed he should be !) but his main advantage was really that those representing the government have been poor, at best.

If these changes to T+Cs are considered to be essential then we'll be back here in a few months time, possibly as a stand-alone debate outside of a pay award (or it will just fail again).

[Digga]

FWIW, to those outside of the choo-choo bubble, I’ve not even bothered looking at using trains since this thread began. I tell I lie, there was one weekend, picking a car up from Wilmslow, prohibited by strike action.

I don’t think I am alone in no longer even considering rail travel, let alone trusting it.

Whatever the truth about this strike, its effects are corrosive.

[legzr1]

Digga said:

FWIW, to those outside of the choo-choo bubble, I’ve not even bothered looking at using trains since this thread began. I tell I lie, there was one weekend, picking a car up from Wilmslow, prohibited by strike action.

I don’t think I am alone in no longer even considering rail travel, let alone trusting it.

Whatever the truth about this strike, its effects are corrosive.

Were you a regular user before this thread began?
If not, I don’t really see the relevance tbh.

Whether you consider using railways or not doesn’t really matter to the millions who do use them - their opinions are what matter. Hundreds of thousands of them spoke up against ticket office closures and Government U-turned.

No matter how corrosive you think the effects are, I can guarantee the effects were concentrated by a lying, ignorant Tory Government, litany of st ministers and TOCs sent out to do the dirty work with hands tied behind their backs.

[alangla]

legzr1 said:

Digga said:

FWIW, to those outside of the choo-choo bubble, I’ve not even bothered looking at using trains since this thread began. I tell I lie, there was one weekend, picking a car up from Wilmslow, prohibited by strike action.

I don’t think I am alone in no longer even considering rail travel, let alone trusting it.

Whatever the truth about this strike, its effects are corrosive.

Were you a regular user before this thread began?
If not, I don’t really see the relevance tbh.

Whether you consider using railways or not doesn’t really matter to the millions who do use them - their opinions are what matter. Hundreds of thousands of them spoke up against ticket office closures and Government U-turned.

No matter how corrosive you think the effects are, I can guarantee the effects were concentrated by a lying, ignorant Tory Government, litany of st ministers and TOCs sent out to do the dirty work with hands tied behind their backs.

I’m kind of in a similar boat to Digga. I am, however, a regular rail user, albeit ScotRail suburban services, so largely unaffected by the current round of both ASLEF and RMT strikes. I did, however, attempt to arrange a longer distance trip for a group of us at the end of September via TransPennine and Northern, only to find ASLEF decided not to bother working on the Saturday. After refunding the tickets, I found that Enterprise would supply me with a suitable car and after fuelling it I’d still saved on the lowest price advance tickets including group discount. Next time I’ll look directly at car hire rather than Avanti or TransPennine being my first port of call. That’s the kind of corrosiveness that then leads occasional long haul users to question exactly why Avanti and TPX are funded really. It’s also undoing a lot of the growth and goodwill that built up during the Virgin years when the WCML was seen as a serious challenger to domestic air. 5 years ago it would have been rail first for any trip on that line of route, now the first thought is air for Birmingham or London and the M6 for anything north. Now THAT multiplied x thousand times is corrosive for longer haul rail.

Short haul into big cities will obviously be different.

[Digga]

legzr1 said:

Were you a regular user before this thread began?
If not, I don’t really see the relevance tbh.

Whether you consider using railways or not doesn’t really matter to the millions who do use them - their opinions are what matter. Hundreds of thousands of them spoke up against ticket office closures and Government U-turned.

No matter how corrosive you think the effects are, I can guarantee the effects were concentrated by a lying, ignorant Tory Government, litany of st ministers and TOCs sent out to do the dirty work with hands tied behind their backs.

I was and a few of my relatives even more so. Not now.

You might consider the views of customers to be an inconvenience. No industry, long term, has such a luxury, no matter the monopoly.

[Southerner]

Digga said:

legzr1 said:

Were you a regular user before this thread began?
If not, I don’t really see the relevance tbh.

Whether you consider using railways or not doesn’t really matter to the millions who do use them - their opinions are what matter. Hundreds of thousands of them spoke up against ticket office closures and Government U-turned.

No matter how corrosive you think the effects are, I can guarantee the effects were concentrated by a lying, ignorant Tory Government, litany of st ministers and TOCs sent out to do the dirty work with hands tied behind their backs.

I was and a few of my relatives even more so. Not now.

You might consider the views of customers to be an inconvenience. No industry, long term, has such a luxury, no matter the monopoly.

I think perhaps the southeast largely does have that luxury, as if you want to get into London then quite frankly it’s a long trip on a coach or the train. National Express & co have certainly siezed the opportunity these strikes have given, but realistically rail will always be able to rest on its laurels for the capital tourist traffic. Very different picture elsewhere though.

[legzr1]

Digga said:

You might consider the views of customers to be an inconvenience

Where did I say that?

What I did say is that many, many thousands spoke up and now we have a U turn and a settlement with RMT ending a long term dispute.

I questioned the relevance of an opinion from someone who won’t be using railways because of industrial action and won’t be using railways after a settlement has been reached.

[crankedup5]

The last time I used a train service it was running under steam power.

Heritage line I should add.

[ChocolateFrog]

Digga said:

FWIW, to those outside of the choo-choo bubble, I’ve not even bothered looking at using trains since this thread began. I tell I lie, there was one weekend, picking a car up from Wilmslow, prohibited by strike action.

I don’t think I am alone in no longer even considering rail travel, let alone trusting it.

Whatever the truth about this strike, its effects are corrosive.

Maybe so.

But I can tell from first hand experience we leave people on platforms every Saturday because the trains are so full so someone's using them.

[Chrisgr31]

I have always voted tory at general elections and indeed was a Conservative party member however as a rail season ticket holder I have resigned from the Conservative party and will be voting at the General Election for whichever party has the greatest chance of kicking them out.

The reason is because the DfT have changed the rules relating to compensation for Season Ticket Holders. So for example on days of the overtime ban by drivers I dont have a direct train to London Bridge, I have to change twice, and the journey takes 1 hr 40 instead of 1 hr 10. I get no compensation for this. On the days when the service after a strike day meant I cant get in to the office until midday I get no compensation. If the train company give Do Not Travel Advice for poor weather etc and I choose not to travel I get no compensation.

In every one of those cases those who have single or return tickets are entitled to cancel their tickets and get a refund. This government complains that passengers are not buying season tickets. Its not surprising when we are subject to such major disturbance with no compensation.

The government have given significant compensation to the train operating companies for the strike, the government have prevented the train companies from settling the dispute until recently when the ticket office shambles revealed the support for rail staff.

For anyone that really believes the Ticket Office closures were the idea of the RDG or the Train Companies then I suggest you wake up and smell the coffee. A review of the social media of rail journalists and may others will reveal that the RDG and train companies were infuriated with the U turn by government and being made to take the blame. All train companies were told by the DfT to come up with plans to close ticket offices which they did.

[Stedman]

TOCs also happy to put deals together for Drivers but Govt kibosh them at every opportunity.

[Ian974]

I'm a bit intrigued by this whole situation as in my experience using the trains semi regularly, I can't say I've even found an active ticket station (with the caveat of I don't know how much this varies from Scotland to England).
95% of the time I'll turn up at my local station, get a return ticket from a Self service machine that requires one button to be pushed and paid by card or cash, present that at the ticket barriers/ train conductor as required and that's that.
If a ticket machine isn't working for that other 5%, the conductor can provide a ticket on the train.
While I can appreciate the concern of the people employed in that service, how is this a bigger issue than for example having bus conductors, or a blockbuster?
Is this destined to be a victim of general progress?

[otolith]

Well, we have made the stupid mistake of relying on rail for our plans. I’m up north at my house for an operation and won’t be able to drive for a couple of weeks. My OH has come up with me in the car, planning to go back on the train Friday night. I’ll stay here for post operative follow up. Her ex is looking after the kids for the week. So that’s a spanner in the works.

It’s just not good enough to rely upon for anything important. In the past I’ve taken the train to the airport, these days I just wouldn’t consider it.

[blueg33]

otolith said:

Well, we have made the stupid mistake of relying on rail for our plans. I’m up north at my house for an operation and won’t be able to drive for a couple of weeks. My OH has come up with me in the car, planning to go back on the train Friday night. I’ll stay here for post operative follow up. Her ex is looking after the kids for the week. So that’s a spanner in the works.

It’s just not good enough to rely upon for anything important. In the past I’ve taken the train to the airport, these days I just wouldn’t consider it.

Similarly my mother has an operation (non elective) coining up in London. She can’t now rely on the train so will have to be driven both ways rather than just one. This means I or my brother have uk take 2 days off work, book a hotel, find 2 days parking in london, add to the congestion in the centre. For the follow up appointments rail won’t be used because we can’t rely on it.

Also, due the ongoing strikes and the fact we can’t rely on rail, we are likely to close our central London office. So next year that’s fewer people using the trains. I know our business is not the only one thinking that. Fewer passengers = less need for train drivers.

Edited by blueg33 on Sunday 3rd December 01:42

[Vasco]

ChocolateFrog said:

Digga said:

FWIW, to those outside of the choo-choo bubble, I’ve not even bothered looking at using trains since this thread began. I tell I lie, there was one weekend, picking a car up from Wilmslow, prohibited by strike action.

I don’t think I am alone in no longer even considering rail travel, let alone trusting it.

Whatever the truth about this strike, its effects are corrosive.

Maybe so.

But I can tell from first hand experience we leave people on platforms every Saturday because the trains are so full so someone's using them.

Nobody has denied that trains are incredibly busy on Sats/Suns.

Unfortunately, the more profitable rail users are those on Mon-Fri and these numbers have dropped, significantly.

We need fair-priced *reliable* trains if that can be achieved by all parties. The only real alternative in the long run is the continuing switch to cars. Some people will simply not travel at all, or increase their working from home.

[Digga]

ChocolateFrog said:

Maybe so.

But I can tell from first hand experience we leave people on platforms every Saturday because the trains are so full so someone's using them.

Another example of customer disservice and dissatisfaction. Not catering for demand when you have an effective monopoly.

See also no late trains running.

FWIW, it is the same with our local bus services. Nothing runs after 8:30pm and the local towns seem to have some sort of stasi like taxi system that locks out Uber.

British public transport is no longer viable.

[S600BSB]

Chrisgr31 said:

I have always voted tory at general elections and indeed was a Conservative party member however as a rail season ticket holder I have resigned from the Conservative party and will be voting at the General Election for whichever party has the greatest chance of kicking them out.

The reason is because the DfT have changed the rules relating to compensation for Season Ticket Holders. So for example on days of the overtime ban by drivers I dont have a direct train to London Bridge, I have to change twice, and the journey takes 1 hr 40 instead of 1 hr 10. I get no compensation for this. On the days when the service after a strike day meant I cant get in to the office until midday I get no compensation. If the train company give Do Not Travel Advice for poor weather etc and I choose not to travel I get no compensation.

In every one of those cases those who have single or return tickets are entitled to cancel their tickets and get a refund. This government complains that passengers are not buying season tickets. Its not surprising when we are subject to such major disturbance with no compensation.

The government have given significant compensation to the train operating companies for the strike, the government have prevented the train companies from settling the dispute until recently when the ticket office shambles revealed the support for rail staff.

For anyone that really believes the Ticket Office closures were the idea of the RDG or the Train Companies then I suggest you wake up and smell the coffee. A review of the social media of rail journalists and may others will reveal that the RDG and train companies were infuriated with the U turn by government and being made to take the blame. All train companies were told by the DfT to come up with plans to close ticket offices which they did.

Good post.

[legzr1]

Vasco said:

ChocolateFrog said:

Digga said:

FWIW, to those outside of the choo-choo bubble, I’ve not even bothered looking at using trains since this thread began. I tell I lie, there was one weekend, picking a car up from Wilmslow, prohibited by strike action.

I don’t think I am alone in no longer even considering rail travel, let alone trusting it.

Whatever the truth about this strike, its effects are corrosive.

Maybe so.

But I can tell from first hand experience we leave people on platforms every Saturday because the trains are so full so someone's using them.

Nobody has denied that trains are incredibly busy on Sats/Suns.

Unfortunately, the more profitable rail users are those on Mon-Fri and these numbers have dropped, significantly.

We need fair-priced *reliable* trains if that can be achieved by all parties. The only real alternative in the long run is the continuing switch to cars. Some people will simply not travel at all, or increase their working from home.

Still, last quarter reported by ORR shows 19% increase in numbers and 10% increase in income over the same period last year. That is on top of significant rises previously.

Perhaps the demographic is changing but total numbers and income are slowly approaching those of pre-pandemic levels.

[legzr1]

Stedman said:

TOCs also happy to put deals together for Drivers but Govt kibosh them at every opportunity.

Compare and contrast England to Scotland. Scotrail with the backing of Scottish government agreed a deal with Aslef drivers in, literally, hours. Now look at the TOCs in England trying to negotiate with Aslef drivers in England.