RMT union vote for a national rail strike

[legzr1]

ecsrobin said:

legzr1 said:

Many, many times.

Give it a month and it will have to be done again.
It’s almost as if people don’t read or listen…

Sorry but I dip in and out and with pages of “fk the government” I skim and probably miss those points.

That’s fair enough but to miss literally hundreds of posts discussing it in detail over many months sounds like a bit more than ‘skim’.

Probably explains your comment on ‘unions’ too, hundreds of posts which went to great length to explain and give detail of the thousands of changes to T&Cs and modernisation negotiated over the years.

Last week I was driving over infrastructure using parts manufactured and fitted in the early 1900’s in a location not far from the first ever passenger railway service. The loco was as old as me but re-fitted with more modern power unit, traction and in-cab electronics. Months earlier I was involved in commissioning of new Hitachi HST stock, both electric and dual mode. A few weeks ago I received an email asking me to get involved in the ETCS/ERTMS program and roll-out for freight locomotives using 4G and 5G line side comms enabling in-cab signalling.

But, a ‘Union stopping progress’ I hear you and many others cry…

[ecsrobin]

legzr1 said:

That’s fair enough but to miss literally hundreds of posts discussing it in detail over many months sounds like a bit more than ‘skim’.

Probably explains your comment on ‘unions’ too, hundreds of posts which went to great length to explain and give detail of the thousands of changes to T&Cs and modernisation negotiated over the years.

Last week I was driving over infrastructure using parts manufactured and fitted in the early 1900’s in a location not far from the first ever passenger railway service. The loco was as old as me but re-fitted with more modern power unit, traction and in-cab electronics. Months earlier I was involved in commissioning of new Hitachi HST stock, both electric and dual mode. A few weeks ago I received an email asking me to get involved in the ETCS/ERTMS program and roll-out for freight locomotives using 4G and 5G line side comms enabling in-cab signalling.

But, a ‘Union stopping progress’ I hear you and many others cry…

I wish the rail companies luck in their future negotiations.

[Chrisgr31]

ecsrobin said:

I wish the rail companies luck in their future negotiations.

If the rail companies were allowed to negotiate they woudnt need luck! The strikes have been caused by the government not allowing the rail companies to negotiate.

[Stedman]

legzr1 said:

That’s fair enough but to miss literally hundreds of posts discussing it in detail over many months sounds like a bit more than ‘skim’.

Probably explains your comment on ‘unions’ too, hundreds of posts which went to great length to explain and give detail of the thousands of changes to T&Cs and modernisation negotiated over the years.

Last week I was driving over infrastructure using parts manufactured and fitted in the early 1900’s in a location not far from the first ever passenger railway service. The loco was as old as me but re-fitted with more modern power unit, traction and in-cab electronics. Months earlier I was involved in commissioning of new Hitachi HST stock, both electric and dual mode. A few weeks ago I received an email asking me to get involved in the ETCS/ERTMS program and roll-out for freight locomotives using 4G and 5G line side comms enabling in-cab signalling.

But, a ‘Union stopping progress’ I hear you and many others cry…

ECDP?

[Graveworm]

Chrisgr31 said:

If the rail companies were allowed to negotiate they woudnt need luck! The strikes have been caused by the government not allowing the rail companies to negotiate.

Keeping saying something doesn't make it so. If you assert something up to you to prove it. If you mean that rail companies funding comes from the government and they have to negotiate within their means then that's not the same as unable to negotiate.

[Vasco]

Chrisgr31 said:

If the rail companies were allowed to negotiate they woudnt need luck! The strikes have been caused by the government not allowing the rail companies to negotiate.

What you really meant to say is that the government involvement actually stopped old fashioned and outdated Unions, like ASLEF, from getting their own way - and not before time.

[Southerner]

Vasco said:

Chrisgr31 said:

If the rail companies were allowed to negotiate they woudnt need luck! The strikes have been caused by the government not allowing the rail companies to negotiate.

What you really meant to say is that the government involvement actually stopped old fashioned and outdated Unions, like ASLEF, from getting their own way - and not before time.

Except that’s demonstrably not the case, is it? As evidenced by the government having just relented and handed the RMT 5% with no strings, which previously they were adamant they wouldn’t do. Government caved, one union at least “got their way”.

[Vasco]

Southerner said:

Vasco said:

Chrisgr31 said:

If the rail companies were allowed to negotiate they woudnt need luck! The strikes have been caused by the government not allowing the rail companies to negotiate.

What you really meant to say is that the government involvement actually stopped old fashioned and outdated Unions, like ASLEF, from getting their own way - and not before time.

Except that’s demonstrably not the case, is it? As evidenced by the government having just relented and handed the RMT 5% with no strings, which previously they were adamant they wouldn’t do. Government caved, one union at least “got their way”.

Yes, only 5%.

I have a distinct feeling that wasn't the figure they said they wanted.

[Southerner]

Vasco said:

Southerner said:

Vasco said:

Chrisgr31 said:

If the rail companies were allowed to negotiate they woudnt need luck! The strikes have been caused by the government not allowing the rail companies to negotiate.

What you really meant to say is that the government involvement actually stopped old fashioned and outdated Unions, like ASLEF, from getting their own way - and not before time.

Except that’s demonstrably not the case, is it? As evidenced by the government having just relented and handed the RMT 5% with no strings, which previously they were adamant they wouldn’t do. Government caved, one union at least “got their way”.

Yes, only 5%.

I have a distinct feeling that wasn't the figure they said they wanted.

No of course it wasn’t, but that’s standard union negotiating tactics. Nobody ever expected to get the 14% or whatever it was. I’ve just replied to another thread regarding a double glazing firm quoting £24k and eventually doing the job for £6k, did they “lose”? No of course not, they still made a tidy profit.

The government initially wanted a raft of changes to Ts & Cs, and were very much adamant that there was absolutely no way a pay rise could happen without it. Now, the RMT have 5%, backdated to last year, payable on basic salary plus on all overtime and any other extras, and have surrendered absolutely nothing in return. In the current climate that’s a perfectly acceptable deal, and is very definitely not what the government were initially asking for. The government have shifted massively, all the RMT have done is hold firm.

[Vasco]

Southerner said:

No of course it wasn’t, but that’s standard union negotiating tactics. Nobody ever expected to get the 14% or whatever it was. I’ve just replied to another thread regarding a double glazing firm quoting £24k and eventually doing the job for £6k, did they “lose”? No of course not, they still made a tidy profit.

The government initially wanted a raft of changes to Ts & Cs, and were very much adamant that there was absolutely no way a pay rise could happen without it. Now, the RMT have 5%, backdated to last year, payable on basic salary plus on all overtime and any other extras, and have surrendered absolutely nothing in return. In the current climate that’s a perfectly acceptable deal, and is very definitely not what the government were initially asking for. The government have shifted massively, all the RMT have done is hold firm.

Yes, I can see that a solution of sorts has got through. I doubt if the RMT demands for 14% (or whatever) would have ever been accepted at only 5% if the government hadn't also held firm for so long.
The test now is, of course, how to get T+C changes through without numerous toys being thrown out of the Union prams.

[Ashfordian]

Graveworm said:

Chrisgr31 said:

If the rail companies were allowed to negotiate they woudnt need luck! The strikes have been caused by the government not allowing the rail companies to negotiate.

Keeping saying something doesn't make it so. If you assert something up to you to prove it. If you mean that rail companies funding comes from the government and they have to negotiate within their means then that's not the same as unable to negotiate.

The actual deal that the RMT just accepted states that for the 2023 pay deal train companies will be able to negotiate the deals individually, which was different to the 2022 pay deal with was negotiated centrally by the RDGGovernment.

[legzr1]

Stedman said:

ECDP?

No doubt it will cover part of that (in a similar way to a drivers rule book covering some signallers duties for example without going into fine detail) but ECDP is mainly a Thales/NR issue/headache

Fitting the equipment onto a 25 year old freight loco isn’t going to be straight forward. Fitting to every loco from every FOC is going to take a while. NR are suggesting that passenger services will be using it in small sections out of London by 2025 with full roll-out of the entire ECML around 2031.

As an anecdote, I’m friends with lots of passenger drivers on TPE, LNER, X-country etc - expect lots of vacancies from the big players family soon - with good wages and decent DB pensions topped up with brass and AVCs a lot are thinking of calling it a day when all this ‘computer st’ starts to be introduced.

I’m sure you’re aware but there was a nation-wide GSM-R outage last week which lasted several hours. Trains continued to run but imagine that with every train using ERTMS!

[legzr1]

Southerner said:

Vasco said:

Chrisgr31 said:

If the rail companies were allowed to negotiate they woudnt need luck! The strikes have been caused by the government not allowing the rail companies to negotiate.

What you really meant to say is that the government involvement actually stopped old fashioned and outdated Unions, like ASLEF, from getting their own way - and not before time.

Except that’s demonstrably not the case, is it? As evidenced by the government having just relented and handed the RMT 5% with no strings, which previously they were adamant they wouldn’t do. Government caved, one union at least “got their way”.

Probably best to ignore Vasco’s little anti-unions digs.

I think this has been mentioned a few times in this thread but there was a concerted effort by some in Government to have their Thatcher ‘thump the union’ moment. A couple of videos dating back as far as 2016 captured some junior nobodies saying as much to a crowd of like-minded individuals.

We’ve had years of one of the poorest governments in living memory supported by lack-lustre ministers and back benchers - these are the words of life-long Tory voters.

RMT were fortunate enough to have a Leader so far ahead of his game compared to anyone from DfT, RDG or U.K. government backed by a talented team with support of many thousands of members and a shift in public sympathy.

Taking that all into account does anyone think this outcome was anything other than inevitable?

[Bathroom_Security]

Digga said:

FWIW, to those outside of the choo-choo bubble, I’ve not even bothered looking at using trains since this thread began. I tell I lie, there was one weekend, picking a car up from Wilmslow, prohibited by strike action.

I don’t think I am alone in no longer even considering rail travel, let alone trusting it.

Whatever the truth about this strike, its effects are corrosive.

Got to go from Surrey to Glasgow today, decided to take a train for a change, flying seems absurd. Until you have to use SWR. What a mistake that was.

Looking unlikely ill make it into London the way the cancellations are going.

I too have stopped using rail as much as possible now. I push customers to provide remote access now, where it was mostly remote anyway it is now 99.9% remote.

Hope the people striking don't get what they want and end up redundant. Absolutely no respect for them.

[Vasco]

legzr1 said:

Southerner said:

Vasco said:

Chrisgr31 said:

If the rail companies were allowed to negotiate they woudnt need luck! The strikes have been caused by the government not allowing the rail companies to negotiate.

What you really meant to say is that the government involvement actually stopped old fashioned and outdated Unions, like ASLEF, from getting their own way - and not before time.

Except that’s demonstrably not the case, is it? As evidenced by the government having just relented and handed the RMT 5% with no strings, which previously they were adamant they wouldn’t do. Government caved, one union at least “got their way”.

Probably best to ignore Vasco’s little anti-unions digs.

I think this has been mentioned a few times in this thread but there was a concerted effort by some in Government to have their Thatcher ‘thump the union’ moment. A couple of videos dating back as far as 2016 captured some junior nobodies saying as much to a crowd of like-minded individuals.

We’ve had years of one of the poorest governments in living memory supported by lack-lustre ministers and back benchers - these are the words of life-long Tory voters.

RMT were fortunate enough to have a Leader so far ahead of his game compared to anyone from DfT, RDG or U.K. government backed by a talented team with support of many thousands of members and a shift in public sympathy.

Taking that all into account does anyone think this outcome was anything other than inevitable?

Of course there were other outcomes. It just appears that it wasn't worth too much hassle at present if a mere 5% would keep some rail staff happy-ish for the time being.

I'd happily accept that the current government has not been wonderful and Starmer may well get a chance to evidence that he can't do much different in a year's time - it should be amusing to watch.

I wonder if the Tories will decide to just leave the T+C changes for a new government to handle?

[alangla]

Vasco said:

Of course there were other outcomes. It just appears that it wasn't worth too much hassle at present if a mere 5% would keep some rail staff happy-ish for the time being.

I'd happily accept that the current government has not been wonderful and Starmer may well get a chance to evidence that he can't do much different in a year's time - it should be amusing to watch.

I wonder if the Tories will decide to just leave the T+C changes for a new government to handle?

I suspect that’s exactly what’s happening. If enough Tory MPs have been bleating to the DfT about elderly constituents complaining about destaffing their local station (regardless of whether they ever actually use it, far less actually buy a ticket there), then booting it into the long grass and letting Starmer deal with the fallout is probably quite attractive. At least some of these nettles will need to be grasped at some point, in the same way TfL had to, but it’ll be after the election.

[Vasco]

alangla said:

Vasco said:

Of course there were other outcomes. It just appears that it wasn't worth too much hassle at present if a mere 5% would keep some rail staff happy-ish for the time being.

I'd happily accept that the current government has not been wonderful and Starmer may well get a chance to evidence that he can't do much different in a year's time - it should be amusing to watch.

I wonder if the Tories will decide to just leave the T+C changes for a new government to handle?

I suspect that’s exactly what’s happening. If enough Tory MPs have been bleating to the DfT about elderly constituents complaining about destaffing their local station (regardless of whether they ever actually use it, far less actually buy a ticket there), then booting it into the long grass and letting Starmer deal with the fallout is probably quite attractive. At least some of these nettles will need to be grasped at some point, in the same way TfL had to, but it’ll be after the election.

Quite. Most people [outside the main Unions] seem to accept that changes to T+Cs are needed. I guess that any future government may decide to link T+C changes to potential pay increases whether RMT/ASLEF like it or not.

[Stedman]

legzr1 said:

No doubt it will cover part of that (in a similar way to a drivers rule book covering some signallers duties for example without going into fine detail) but ECDP is mainly a Thales/NR issue/headache

Fitting the equipment onto a 25 year old freight loco isn’t going to be straight forward. Fitting to every loco from every FOC is going to take a while. NR are suggesting that passenger services will be using it in small sections out of London by 2025 with full roll-out of the entire ECML around 2031.

As an anecdote, I’m friends with lots of passenger drivers on TPE, LNER, X-country etc - expect lots of vacancies from the big players family soon - with good wages and decent DB pensions topped up with brass and AVCs a lot are thinking of calling it a day when all this ‘computer st’ starts to be introduced.

I’m sure you’re aware but there was a nation-wide GSM-R outage last week which lasted several hours. Trains continued to run but imagine that with every train using ERTMS!

Ah ok. I’m on it on the passenger side. Funnily enough the GSM-R issue nearly saw our testing cancelled on Friday night.

[Chrisgr31]

Vasco said:

Quite. Most people [outside the main Unions] seem to accept that changes to T+Cs are needed. I guess that any future government may decide to link T+C changes to potential pay increases whether RMT/ASLEF like it or not.

Even the unions accept that terms and conditions need changing. They don’t accept a one size fits all. That’s not particularly surprising as the TOCs all have different terms and conditions at the moment anyway. The unions have been saying for ages that Sunday should be included in the working week etc.

It’s also been clear for some time that the RMT would accept a pay offer of 5%, they agreed months ago to put such an offer to their members, but before they could the government moved the goalposts and added conditions to it.

They accepted 5% in Scotland, Liverpool for National Rail staff etc so it’s been clear that 5% is the ball park for ages.

It’s just a shame that fares are going up beyond 5%!

[Stedman]

Vasco said:

Quite. Most people [outside the main Unions] seem to accept that changes to T+Cs are needed. I guess that any future government may decide to link T+C changes to potential pay increases whether RMT/ASLEF like it or not.

Isn't that what happens when T+Cs are sold?