RMT union vote for a national rail strike
Discussion
Carl_VivaEspana said:
All said, I would sooner let a computer run the trains and let people focus on the service element.
Service element?Like ticket office staff and guards on trains that have been under the threat of redundancy over the past couple of years?
Don’t say this out loud but there are large buildings dotted around the country called ROCs - they contain lots of computers running the trains and have done so for some time. Always good to have humans there as a back-up incase the computers take digital industrial action though.
Stedman said:
Isn't that what happens when T+Cs are sold?
It’s what has happened for 100 years that I’m aware of.Perhaps it’s news to others.
Stedman said:
Ah ok. I’m on it on the passenger side. Funnily enough the GSM-R issue nearly saw our testing cancelled on Friday night.
How you finding it?I’ll be honest, once past the novelty and ‘vanguard of electronic control systems’ I’m a bit, well, meh. Not sure if I’ll take it any further tbh. There are some keen bright young things better able over my side anyway.
Stedman said:
Vasco said:
Quite. Most people [outside the main Unions] seem to accept that changes to T+Cs are needed. I guess that any future government may decide to link T+C changes to potential pay increases whether RMT/ASLEF like it or not.
Isn't that what happens when T+Cs are sold?In future, I'm assuming that there won't be any pay offer at all if T+C changes aren't first agreed and accepted.
legzr1 said:
Service element?
Like ticket office staff and guards on trains that have been under the threat of redundancy over the past couple of years?
Don’t say this out loud but there are large buildings dotted around the country called ROCs - they contain lots of computers running the trains and have done so for some time. Always good to have humans there as a back-up incase the computers take digital industrial action though.
I’m still not convinced about the arguments for keeping someone in the back cab reading the paper as per Merseyrail and South West versus the Glasgow area or Southern model of having someone rostered in the passenger area whose primary responsibility is customer care and revenue protection. There isn’t even a case that they’re needed on every long distance route given Lumo seem to be able to go all the way from London to Edinburgh without.Like ticket office staff and guards on trains that have been under the threat of redundancy over the past couple of years?
Don’t say this out loud but there are large buildings dotted around the country called ROCs - they contain lots of computers running the trains and have done so for some time. Always good to have humans there as a back-up incase the computers take digital industrial action though.
I do think a second person is valuable, but I’d question whether they need the role they currently have. Obviously this is subject to the same safety requirements around track circuiting, enhanced PA systems etc as at present.
As for the ROCs, did NR not take a decision to decentralise more after some of them were disabled by technical faults or Covid outbreaks?
If you want to know what I am on about, travel the train network in Japan in all classes.
Look at the stations too and the facilities, service levels at the stations, the clean toilets, the food quality in standard class.
I am also thinking excellence class Zermatt to St. Moritz, we don't have anything like it, in abundance.
The closest we get is things like First Class, Leeds to Kings Cross and Cornwall to London.
And yes, Network rail are a big part of this but long term savings from computerisation can be spent elsewhere, if we can't do it like the Japanese.
Look at the stations too and the facilities, service levels at the stations, the clean toilets, the food quality in standard class.
I am also thinking excellence class Zermatt to St. Moritz, we don't have anything like it, in abundance.
The closest we get is things like First Class, Leeds to Kings Cross and Cornwall to London.
And yes, Network rail are a big part of this but long term savings from computerisation can be spent elsewhere, if we can't do it like the Japanese.
Vasco said:
Stedman said:
Vasco said:
Quite. Most people [outside the main Unions] seem to accept that changes to T+Cs are needed. I guess that any future government may decide to link T+C changes to potential pay increases whether RMT/ASLEF like it or not.
Isn't that what happens when T+Cs are sold?In future, I'm assuming that there won't be any pay offer at all if T+C changes aren't first agreed and accepted.
And let’s be clear here - in the case of ticket office workers we’re talking redundancy rather than an extra hour a week travelling in your own time or an extra Saturday shift every 12 weeks.
legzr1 said:
What kind of fool would agree to changes before knowing what the pay increase would be?
And let’s be clear here - in the case of ticket office workers we’re talking redundancy rather than an extra hour a week travelling in your own time or an extra Saturday shift every 12 weeks.
In the real world jobs are not for life. Changes happen.And let’s be clear here - in the case of ticket office workers we’re talking redundancy rather than an extra hour a week travelling in your own time or an extra Saturday shift every 12 weeks.
alangla said:
legzr1 said:
Service element?
Like ticket office staff and guards on trains that have been under the threat of redundancy over the past couple of years?
Don’t say this out loud but there are large buildings dotted around the country called ROCs - they contain lots of computers running the trains and have done so for some time. Always good to have humans there as a back-up incase the computers take digital industrial action though.
I’m still not convinced about the arguments for keeping someone in the back cab reading the paper as per Merseyrail and South West versus the Glasgow area or Southern model of having someone rostered in the passenger area whose primary responsibility is customer care and revenue protection. There isn’t even a case that they’re needed on every long distance route given Lumo seem to be able to go all the way from London to Edinburgh without.Like ticket office staff and guards on trains that have been under the threat of redundancy over the past couple of years?
Don’t say this out loud but there are large buildings dotted around the country called ROCs - they contain lots of computers running the trains and have done so for some time. Always good to have humans there as a back-up incase the computers take digital industrial action though.
I do think a second person is valuable, but I’d question whether they need the role they currently have. Obviously this is subject to the same safety requirements around track circuiting, enhanced PA systems etc as at present.
In the (thankfully rare) occasions where disasters occur it’s normally the poor bugger at the front that is taken out first - is it not reassuring knowing there is someone else on-board trained to deal with emergency situations?
I don’t know Lumos situation - they seem to have a crew of 5 on every train - isn’t one of those trained to deal with emergency situations too?
alangla said:
As for the ROCs, did NR not take a decision to decentralise more after some of them were disabled by technical faults or Covid outbreaks?
It’s the first I’ve heard of this but then I don’t work for NR.Seems a strange thing to do after all the investment that’s gone into ROCs. Although we are talking about NR.
And how would you ‘desentralise’ anyway - ROCs are built, control handed over and hundreds of lots of smaller signal boxes are permanently closed.
Edited by legzr1 on Monday 4th December 19:57
Biggy Stardust said:
legzr1 said:
What kind of fool would agree to changes before knowing what the pay increase would be?
And let’s be clear here - in the case of ticket office workers we’re talking redundancy rather than an extra hour a week travelling in your own time or an extra Saturday shift every 12 weeks.
In the real world jobs are not for life. Changes happen.And let’s be clear here - in the case of ticket office workers we’re talking redundancy rather than an extra hour a week travelling in your own time or an extra Saturday shift every 12 weeks.
Care to answer the question?
legzr1 said:
alangla said:
legzr1 said:
Service element?
Like ticket office staff and guards on trains that have been under the threat of redundancy over the past couple of years?
Don’t say this out loud but there are large buildings dotted around the country called ROCs - they contain lots of computers running the trains and have done so for some time. Always good to have humans there as a back-up incase the computers take digital industrial action though.
I’m still not convinced about the arguments for keeping someone in the back cab reading the paper as per Merseyrail and South West versus the Glasgow area or Southern model of having someone rostered in the passenger area whose primary responsibility is customer care and revenue protection. There isn’t even a case that they’re needed on every long distance route given Lumo seem to be able to go all the way from London to Edinburgh without.Like ticket office staff and guards on trains that have been under the threat of redundancy over the past couple of years?
Don’t say this out loud but there are large buildings dotted around the country called ROCs - they contain lots of computers running the trains and have done so for some time. Always good to have humans there as a back-up incase the computers take digital industrial action though.
I do think a second person is valuable, but I’d question whether they need the role they currently have. Obviously this is subject to the same safety requirements around track circuiting, enhanced PA systems etc as at present.
In the (thankfully rare) occasions where disasters occur it’s normally the poor bugger at the front that is taken out first - is it not reassuring knowing there is someone else on-board trained to deal with emergency situations?
I don’t know Lumos situation - they seem to have a crew of 5 on every train - isn’t one of those trained to deal with emergency situations too?
alangla said:
As for the ROCs, did NR not take a decision to decentralise more after some of them were disabled by technical faults or Covid outbreaks?
It’s the first I’ve heard of this but then I don’t work for NR.Seems a strange thing to do after all the investment that’s gone into ROCs. Although we are talking about NR.
And how would you ‘desentralise’ anyway - ROCs are built, control handed over and hundreds of lots of smaller signal boxes are permanently closed.
Edited by legzr1 on Monday 4th December 19:57
In terms of how you decentralise, as I understand it, basically consolidating to something about the scale of a traditional BR power box or two, rather than more mega ROCs like York etc!
legzr1 said:
Vasco said:
Stedman said:
Vasco said:
Quite. Most people [outside the main Unions] seem to accept that changes to T+Cs are needed. I guess that any future government may decide to link T+C changes to potential pay increases whether RMT/ASLEF like it or not.
Isn't that what happens when T+Cs are sold?In future, I'm assuming that there won't be any pay offer at all if T+C changes aren't first agreed and accepted.
And let’s be clear here - in the case of ticket office workers we’re talking redundancy rather than an extra hour a week travelling in your own time or an extra Saturday shift every 12 weeks.
Ticket office workers are only needed where volumes exceed a certain level and, inevitably, many may become redundant. Such changes may be well overdue in some locations and, in any event, rail passengers pay out more than enough and don't need to subsidise unnecessary employees.
.
legzr1 said:
Carl_VivaEspana said:
All said, I would sooner let a computer run the trains and let people focus on the service element.
Service element?Like ticket office staff and guards on trains that have been under the threat of redundancy over the past couple of years?
Don’t say this out loud but there are large buildings dotted around the country called ROCs - they contain lots of computers running the trains and have done so for some time. Always good to have humans there as a back-up incase the computers take digital industrial action though.
Given the attitude of our government and the rail industry I recon people will be travelling in self driving cars long before we modernise the rail network.
Sadly I think rail travel is close to a tipping point in the UK. Unless attitudes change then the next couple of debates will see a decrease in investment, with the focus on keeping commuting routes open and profitable and the slow death of everything else.
Despite the green / sustainable agenda, no one wants to invest in long term projects - it’s all cost with the benefits decades away - see HS2.
Can’t see what will halt the decline.
Vasco said:
Any organisation dealing with staff where T+Cs need updating are perfectly capable of using a sliding scale of rewards - i.e ....3% for accepting A+B, 5% for A+B+C or 7% for A+B+C+D. It's really not difficult.
.
But you said:.
Vasco said:
In future, I'm assuming that there won't be any pay offer at all if T+C changes aren't first agreed and accepted
.So which is it?
1.“Here’s the changes demanded. Agree then we’ll talk £££” or
2. “Here’s the changes demanded along with what we’ll pay for each change”.
You suggested the first to which I replied only a fool would accept.
Apparently it’s really not difficult…
Rather moot anyway considering the U-turn and end of industrial action.
legzr1 said:
Vasco said:
Any organisation dealing with staff where T+Cs need updating are perfectly capable of using a sliding scale of rewards - i.e ....3% for accepting A+B, 5% for A+B+C or 7% for A+B+C+D. It's really not difficult.
.
But you said:.
Vasco said:
In future, I'm assuming that there won't be any pay offer at all if T+C changes aren't first agreed and accepted
.So which is it?
1.“Here’s the changes demanded. Agree then we’ll talk £££” or
2. “Here’s the changes demanded along with what we’ll pay for each change”.
You suggested the first to which I replied only a fool would accept.
Apparently it’s really not difficult…
Rather moot anyway considering the U-turn and end of industrial action.
1 = if Union says it won't accept any changes to T+Cs. No further increases are paid.
2= an example of how % increases could be applied.
Not sure why you think it's a moot point already. No T+Cs have yet been achieved.
Graveworm said:
Chrisgr31 said:
If the rail companies were allowed to negotiate they woudnt need luck! The strikes have been caused by the government not allowing the rail companies to negotiate.
Keeping saying something doesn't make it so. If you assert something up to you to prove it. If you mean that rail companies funding comes from the government and they have to negotiate within their means then that's not the same as unable to negotiate. To repeat what some seem to be ignoring. We have a nationalised rail industry in all but name now. The ticket revenue goes to the government. The train operating companies are paid most of their costs plus a management charge.
If costs go up then the government pays so how exactly they can be excluded from the negotiation process isn't clear.
This explains the structure
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/dft-pay...
There is talk of modifying this to increase commercial freedom in future.
alangla said:
It is reassuring, yes and I’d rather the ticket examiners around here had training that brought them closer to a guard, as I understand it the Southern OBS basically are in all but name. I don’t think it’s crucial for that individual to operate the doors and the driver only trains here are definitely a lot quicker in doing their station stops than the double crewed trains. I’d much rather that the second crew member was primarily in the passenger space and not dealing with doors or train dispatch. Again, for the avoidance of doubt, I do think some of the dispatch methods that have been in use here since the 1980s aren’t especially safe, eg sticking one’s head out the second man’s window at very busy stations like Glasgow Central Low Level and Exhibition Centre. It should be mirrors or CCTV, ideally CCTV.
Southern’s OBS are most definitely not ‘guards in all but name’, quite the opposite, in fact - many of them were guards, and then Southern, at the behest of the DfT, downgraded them all to tickets and customer service only. They no longer have any safety critical responsibilities or associated training, can’t go on the track, don’t have route knowledge, and certainly for the newer ones who were recruited as OBS and weren’t previously guards, it’s fair to assume they probably wouldn’t be a great deal of help as far the procedure goes in a disaster. Southerner said:
alangla said:
It is reassuring, yes and I’d rather the ticket examiners around here had training that brought them closer to a guard, as I understand it the Southern OBS basically are in all but name. I don’t think it’s crucial for that individual to operate the doors and the driver only trains here are definitely a lot quicker in doing their station stops than the double crewed trains. I’d much rather that the second crew member was primarily in the passenger space and not dealing with doors or train dispatch. Again, for the avoidance of doubt, I do think some of the dispatch methods that have been in use here since the 1980s aren’t especially safe, eg sticking one’s head out the second man’s window at very busy stations like Glasgow Central Low Level and Exhibition Centre. It should be mirrors or CCTV, ideally CCTV.
Southern’s OBS are most definitely not ‘guards in all but name’, quite the opposite, in fact - many of them were guards, and then Southern, at the behest of the DfT, downgraded them all to tickets and customer service only. They no longer have any safety critical responsibilities or associated training, can’t go on the track, don’t have route knowledge, and certainly for the newer ones who were recruited as OBS and weren’t previously guards, it’s fair to assume they probably wouldn’t be a great deal of help as far the procedure goes in a disaster. From a customer point of view, the OBS on Southern is an excellent compromise. Everyone at the outset suggested it wouldn't work - that must be about 6 years ago!
Southerner said:
Southern’s OBS are most definitely not ‘guards in all but name’, quite the opposite, in fact - many of them were guards, and then Southern, at the behest of the DfT, downgraded them all to tickets and customer service only. They no longer have any safety critical responsibilities or associated training, can’t go on the track, don’t have route knowledge, and certainly for the newer ones who were recruited as OBS and weren’t previously guards, it’s fair to assume they probably wouldn’t be a great deal of help as far the procedure goes in a disaster.
Fair enough, I hadn’t realised they’d lost things like track safety etc. Sounds like they might be more of a Ticket Examiner +, which is a bit disappointing.Vasco said:
Southerner said:
alangla said:
It is reassuring, yes and I’d rather the ticket examiners around here had training that brought them closer to a guard, as I understand it the Southern OBS basically are in all but name. I don’t think it’s crucial for that individual to operate the doors and the driver only trains here are definitely a lot quicker in doing their station stops than the double crewed trains. I’d much rather that the second crew member was primarily in the passenger space and not dealing with doors or train dispatch. Again, for the avoidance of doubt, I do think some of the dispatch methods that have been in use here since the 1980s aren’t especially safe, eg sticking one’s head out the second man’s window at very busy stations like Glasgow Central Low Level and Exhibition Centre. It should be mirrors or CCTV, ideally CCTV.
Southern’s OBS are most definitely not ‘guards in all but name’, quite the opposite, in fact - many of them were guards, and then Southern, at the behest of the DfT, downgraded them all to tickets and customer service only. They no longer have any safety critical responsibilities or associated training, can’t go on the track, don’t have route knowledge, and certainly for the newer ones who were recruited as OBS and weren’t previously guards, it’s fair to assume they probably wouldn’t be a great deal of help as far the procedure goes in a disaster. From a customer point of view, the OBS on Southern is an excellent compromise. Everyone at the outset suggested it wouldn't work - that must be about 6 years ago!
On some of the newer DOO fleets introduced on routes with guards already in place, it has been decided that the guards will be trained and retain their competence in how to operate the doors anyway, in the event of “equipment failure”. That tells quite a story.
Edited by Southerner on Tuesday 5th December 10:01
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