RMT union vote for a national rail strike
Discussion
Thought this was interesting.
Rail and Tube travel still significantly down on pre-pandemic levels.
https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/transport...
The workforce though refuse any efficiency savings so in the end something will have to give, unless numbers recover.
Rail and Tube travel still significantly down on pre-pandemic levels.
https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/transport...
The workforce though refuse any efficiency savings so in the end something will have to give, unless numbers recover.
JagLover said:
Thought this was interesting.
Rail and Tube travel still significantly down on pre-pandemic levels.
https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/transport...
The workforce though refuse any efficiency savings so in the end something will have to give, unless numbers recover.
Difficult to see numbers recovering enough on weekdays/work commuting etc. We know already that there's considerable demand at the weekends, but that's cheaper fares/less income.Rail and Tube travel still significantly down on pre-pandemic levels.
https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/transport...
The workforce though refuse any efficiency savings so in the end something will have to give, unless numbers recover.
People also keep confusing passenger numbers with financial income and profit which doesn't help matters.
There are a few options that come to mind...
Increase fares at weekends
Trim rail network where costs far exceed income
Reduce costs - stations/maintenance/track ???
Implement efficiency savings [RMT/ASLEF ??]
Edited by Vasco on Thursday 7th December 07:24
JagLover said:
Thought this was interesting.
Rail and Tube travel still significantly down on pre-pandemic levels.
https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/transport...
The workforce though refuse any efficiency savings so in the end something will have to give, unless numbers recover.
4.5 million journeys are made every week on the Elizabeth Line. From those stats these are no longer counted but the vast majority of these journeys will have previously been made on Rail and/or Tube. It really doesn't help the Government position when they publish data that is intentionally distorting reality.Rail and Tube travel still significantly down on pre-pandemic levels.
https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/transport...
The workforce though refuse any efficiency savings so in the end something will have to give, unless numbers recover.
Vasco said:
Difficult to see numbers recovering enough on weekdays/work commuting etc. We know already that there's considerable demand at the weekends, but that's cheaper fares/less income.
People also keep confusing passenger numbers with financial income and profit which doesn't help matters.
There are a few options that come to mind...
Increase fares at weekends
Trim rail network where costs far exceed income
Reduce costs - stations/maintenance/track ???
Implement efficiency savings [RMT/ASLEF ??]
Realistically, I think what needs to happen is for peak fares to be scrapped and short-haul off peak fares jacked up by something of the order of 30% or so. The question is, will anyone have the political balls to do it?People also keep confusing passenger numbers with financial income and profit which doesn't help matters.
There are a few options that come to mind...
Increase fares at weekends
Trim rail network where costs far exceed income
Reduce costs - stations/maintenance/track ???
Implement efficiency savings [RMT/ASLEF ??]
Edited by Vasco on Thursday 7th December 07:24
Longer hauls are a bit different, I suspect maintaining off peak fares largely as they are, scrapping anytime fares and manipulating the prices of Advance tickets to balance demand train-by-train might produce a more profitable outcome.
In terms of cost savings, perhaps it’s time to admit that peak demand will never come back and start sizing fleets for weekend demand rather than 8am on a Monday morning. Some of the older stock (not that there’s much older electric stock left) can then be scrapped and more maintenance done on weekdays rather than weekends. Also, Network Rail seem to be doing more track maintenance during the week rather than Sundays, maybe make this more extensive.
JagLover said:
Thought this was interesting.
Rail and Tube travel still significantly down on pre-pandemic levels.
https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/transport...
The workforce though refuse any efficiency savings so in the end something will have to give, unless numbers recover.
More nonsense from yourself.Rail and Tube travel still significantly down on pre-pandemic levels.
https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/transport...
The workforce though refuse any efficiency savings so in the end something will have to give, unless numbers recover.
The workforce gave up plenty of concessions in accepting the deal earlier in the year, some of the stuff is even being reviewed currently as the new ways of working just aren't working and is having the opposite desired effect, exactly like the RMT and the workforce said it would...
As others have said, the numbers the Government produce are fudged, they always are to support their narrative. I remember the one about the number of tickets sold at ticket offices, yet they included offices which were shut for large parts of the day throughout the year, once they were open the numbers increased massively, obviously, so if they were open at all times then the percentage total would be a lot more.
The statistics continue to be skewed by the ongoing industrial action.
It would also be interesting to know if the subsidy provided to the rail operator for the industrial action is included in the cost of operating rail. No doubt it is but of course those costs are only being incurred due to government policy.
We also need to look at the locomotive mileage data to see how many services have been cut, it’s 6% on GTR in the last year let alone before that and that doesn’t account for shorter trains either.
It would also be interesting to know if the subsidy provided to the rail operator for the industrial action is included in the cost of operating rail. No doubt it is but of course those costs are only being incurred due to government policy.
We also need to look at the locomotive mileage data to see how many services have been cut, it’s 6% on GTR in the last year let alone before that and that doesn’t account for shorter trains either.
alangla said:
Realistically, I think what needs to happen is for peak fares to be scrapped and short-haul off peak fares jacked up by something of the order of 30% or so. The question is, will anyone have the political balls to do it?
Longer hauls are a bit different, I suspect maintaining off peak fares largely as they are, scrapping anytime fares and manipulating the prices of Advance tickets to balance demand train-by-train might produce a more profitable outcome.
In terms of cost savings, perhaps it’s time to admit that peak demand will never come back and start sizing fleets for weekend demand rather than 8am on a Monday morning. Some of the older stock (not that there’s much older electric stock left) can then be scrapped and more maintenance done on weekdays rather than weekends. Also, Network Rail seem to be doing more track maintenance during the week rather than Sundays, maybe make this more extensive.
Commuting habits have changed, I know mine have. It is now Tuesday, Wednesday & Thursday that are the peak travel days, comfortably ahead of Mondays with Fridays being a shadow of its former numbers. Saturdays while up, are still behind weekday numbers and the timing of travel is different.Longer hauls are a bit different, I suspect maintaining off peak fares largely as they are, scrapping anytime fares and manipulating the prices of Advance tickets to balance demand train-by-train might produce a more profitable outcome.
In terms of cost savings, perhaps it’s time to admit that peak demand will never come back and start sizing fleets for weekend demand rather than 8am on a Monday morning. Some of the older stock (not that there’s much older electric stock left) can then be scrapped and more maintenance done on weekdays rather than weekends. Also, Network Rail seem to be doing more track maintenance during the week rather than Sundays, maybe make this more extensive.
I would like to see that Government data presented for a Tuesday, Wednesday or Thursday, adjusted for Elizabeth Line numbers and for fewer services being run. Break it down into regions and I suspect many regions would back close to or above pre-Covid numbers. The main regions that have not recovered are the South and South East, both of which are applying a significant drag on the Government supplied numbers. I find it dishonest of the Government to manipulate the gullible(Vasco, etc) like this.
Regarding ticketing, there was a recent report in The Tines that South Eastern are scrapping their super off-peak fares. I know this has not gone down well but at no point is the Government putting the needs of the commuter first with regards to the railway.
Ashfordian said:
alangla said:
Realistically, I think what needs to happen is for peak fares to be scrapped and short-haul off peak fares jacked up by something of the order of 30% or so. The question is, will anyone have the political balls to do it?
Longer hauls are a bit different, I suspect maintaining off peak fares largely as they are, scrapping anytime fares and manipulating the prices of Advance tickets to balance demand train-by-train might produce a more profitable outcome.
In terms of cost savings, perhaps it’s time to admit that peak demand will never come back and start sizing fleets for weekend demand rather than 8am on a Monday morning. Some of the older stock (not that there’s much older electric stock left) can then be scrapped and more maintenance done on weekdays rather than weekends. Also, Network Rail seem to be doing more track maintenance during the week rather than Sundays, maybe make this more extensive.
Commuting habits have changed, I know mine have. It is now Tuesday, Wednesday & Thursday that are the peak travel days, comfortably ahead of Mondays with Fridays being a shadow of its former numbers. Saturdays while up, are still behind weekday numbers and the timing of travel is different.Longer hauls are a bit different, I suspect maintaining off peak fares largely as they are, scrapping anytime fares and manipulating the prices of Advance tickets to balance demand train-by-train might produce a more profitable outcome.
In terms of cost savings, perhaps it’s time to admit that peak demand will never come back and start sizing fleets for weekend demand rather than 8am on a Monday morning. Some of the older stock (not that there’s much older electric stock left) can then be scrapped and more maintenance done on weekdays rather than weekends. Also, Network Rail seem to be doing more track maintenance during the week rather than Sundays, maybe make this more extensive.
I would like to see that Government data presented for a Tuesday, Wednesday or Thursday, adjusted for Elizabeth Line numbers and for fewer services being run. Break it down into regions and I suspect many regions would back close to or above pre-Covid numbers. The main regions that have not recovered are the South and South East, both of which are applying a significant drag on the Government supplied numbers. I find it dishonest of the Government to manipulate the gullible(Vasco, etc) like this.
Regarding ticketing, there was a recent report in The Tines that South Eastern are scrapping their super off-peak fares. I know this has not gone down well but at no point is the Government putting the needs of the commuter first with regards to the railway.
Chrisgr31 said:
If this government wasnt so fixated with destroying the unions, and indeed their own electoral hopes, rail would stand a chance of recovery.
The dispute has cost the government billions and of course dissuaded commuters from returning. Not only that but the changes the government have made to compensation for season tickets holders has annoyed them to. For example tomorrow the first train I can get to London gets me in to work at 10am. somewhat later than my usual 8.30. Do I get any compensation on my season ticket? No as the trains are running. I would have saved money over the last year by not having a season ticket due to the disruption caused by industrial disputes.
There is an increasing demand by employers (other than local government) to have their employers in the office more. Once they want employers in the office 3 days a week season tickets become cheap especially for peak hour travel.
In the latest train usage statistics it is interesting that the main commuter train companies are beginning to see the greatest increase in travel. This is only going to increase. The numbers standing on my commuter train are increasing. Quite what happens if they fully recover I have no idea as the government have removed some of our rolling stock and sent it to the East Midlands so they cant just lengthen trains.
Once the drivers dispute is settled then I expect train travel to start increasing significantly that in turn will reduce the subsidy etc. At the moment it appears the government wants a high subsidy so they are deliberately taking actions to ensure the subsidy need is maximised.
As regards coaches replacing trains there are relatively few areas that will work and of course there is a huge shortage of coach drivers at the moment, which is why so frequently there is no bus replacement service. A coach does not have the capacity of a train and queues of coaches on the roads are hardly likely t be popular with motorists.
I don’t think that industrial action has been keeping commuters away, apart from on days where there is no actual train service. Most employees don’t get a choice about the days they come back to the office and many companies are already back to 3 days a week.The dispute has cost the government billions and of course dissuaded commuters from returning. Not only that but the changes the government have made to compensation for season tickets holders has annoyed them to. For example tomorrow the first train I can get to London gets me in to work at 10am. somewhat later than my usual 8.30. Do I get any compensation on my season ticket? No as the trains are running. I would have saved money over the last year by not having a season ticket due to the disruption caused by industrial disputes.
There is an increasing demand by employers (other than local government) to have their employers in the office more. Once they want employers in the office 3 days a week season tickets become cheap especially for peak hour travel.
In the latest train usage statistics it is interesting that the main commuter train companies are beginning to see the greatest increase in travel. This is only going to increase. The numbers standing on my commuter train are increasing. Quite what happens if they fully recover I have no idea as the government have removed some of our rolling stock and sent it to the East Midlands so they cant just lengthen trains.
Once the drivers dispute is settled then I expect train travel to start increasing significantly that in turn will reduce the subsidy etc. At the moment it appears the government wants a high subsidy so they are deliberately taking actions to ensure the subsidy need is maximised.
As regards coaches replacing trains there are relatively few areas that will work and of course there is a huge shortage of coach drivers at the moment, which is why so frequently there is no bus replacement service. A coach does not have the capacity of a train and queues of coaches on the roads are hardly likely t be popular with motorists.
I doubt we will see people retiring to commuting 5 days a week - those that need to be in a certain location all week (retail, hospitality, healthcare etc) have already been doing that for a while. As a result season tickets need to come down in price, or be adjusted for 2-3 days a week commuting. Once you factor in annual leave, sick days etc they don’t makes sense in their current form for a large number of commuters.
In terms of rail use increasing - there will be a ceiling and it will be lower than before Covid, the only thing that isn’t clear is how close we are to that ceiling. Standing passengers might be increasing, but it’s a world apart from 2019. It used to be a crush on the 8:05 from my local station, now it’s a handful of people standing because that can’t be bothered to walk the length of the train to find a seat.
Car park used to be full by 8am but now there are plenty of spaces at 9am - and half of it is covered in containers and cranes at the moment.
The only service I know we have struggled with in terms of capacity is the London to Manchester train - but that was because there was only one train and hour for a while. Neatly avoided by either driving, Uber or flying from Gatwick for those in south London - all of which were cheaper than the rail option anyway.
Edited by survivalist on Thursday 7th December 19:33
It's clear to see that commuters haven't returned especially on Monday and Fridays.
I live on a road with free parking a few minutes from the station, pre pandemic by 8am every space on the road was taken where as now the roads empty during the day as the free spaces on roads closer to the station aren't yet taken.
Was meant to have had a Christmas lunch at work yesterday but the train strike meant it was called off, feel for the restaurant staff.
I live on a road with free parking a few minutes from the station, pre pandemic by 8am every space on the road was taken where as now the roads empty during the day as the free spaces on roads closer to the station aren't yet taken.
Was meant to have had a Christmas lunch at work yesterday but the train strike meant it was called off, feel for the restaurant staff.
Ashfordian said:
Regarding ticketing, there was a recent report in The Tines that South Eastern are scrapping their super off-peak fares. I know this has not gone down well but at no point is the Government putting the needs of the commuter first with regards to the railway.
South Eastern is interesting as it is operated by Directly Operated Railways otherwise known as the DfT. It appears to have had limited service cuts and somehow seems to have very limited reliance on overtime so their service isnt stuffed by the current over time ban.Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff