If Britain rejoined the EU tomorrow…
Discussion
heebeegeetee said:
Murph7355 said:
You can still travel. I do it regularly. Study abroad? Still possible...but what %age of people actually did it?
Absolutely not as before, we can't. I accept that for most people 'travel' means a 2 week holiday once a year, but there are still a great many who do more than that, and they/we have been significantly negatively impacted upon. I just read some more about the visa process for European countries. I am s
tting myself over the prospect of a trade war, should it mean that that is the process we'd have to follow as a result.heebeegeetee said:
Absolutely not as before, we can't. I accept that for most people 'travel' means a 2 week holiday once a year, but there are still a great many who do more than that, and they/we have been significantly negatively impacted upon.
I just read some more about the visa process for European countries. I am stting myself over the prospect of a trade war, should it mean that that is the process we'd have to follow as a result.
Quit being lazy and get yourself visas if it's important enough.I just read some more about the visa process for European countries. I am s
tting myself over the prospect of a trade war, should it mean that that is the process we'd have to follow as a result.You don't need sledgehammer measures to look after yourself.
FiF said:
Other things make one wonder too. On the one hand Bozzer says going to deal with planning etc to allow massive greenhouses to grow stuff we import. Eg one Dutch outfit have a 25 hectare greenhouse just growing tomatoes. Christ knows what the one growing peppers is. All very well, how does that proposed change and investment sit in our climate with all the net zero malarkey? Yeah it's possible technically, some are doing it, growing salad crops in UK competitively, how widely that can be done and is the capital available, personally don't know. That side of things not my barrow anyway. Just an observation though.
But one thing is right and that is Clarkson's comment that left hand needs to know what right hand is doing. It's not good Govt saying diversify, then local planning and the red trouser brigade saying the answer is no now what's the question.
TL:DR Govt and too many pressure groups don't understand/ don't want to understand / it's like a lot of super tankers who have to be marshalled into different convoys then finding you're herding cats. Doesn’t happen in a year, and if the civil serpents also aren't on board then just wtf. Are individuals over reacting, well uncertainty gets folk nervous when it comes to livelihood no matter what that is, agriculture or manufacturing widgets.
We've a 30 hectare glasshouse pepper growing facility near me. All incredibly efficient, with CHP plant providing heating using a biodigester that consumes green waste from both their and neighbouring farms.But one thing is right and that is Clarkson's comment that left hand needs to know what right hand is doing. It's not good Govt saying diversify, then local planning and the red trouser brigade saying the answer is no now what's the question.
TL:DR Govt and too many pressure groups don't understand/ don't want to understand / it's like a lot of super tankers who have to be marshalled into different convoys then finding you're herding cats. Doesn’t happen in a year, and if the civil serpents also aren't on board then just wtf. Are individuals over reacting, well uncertainty gets folk nervous when it comes to livelihood no matter what that is, agriculture or manufacturing widgets.
Edited by FiF on Monday 20th June 12:39
They also have 25 hectares of glasshouse in Spain (winter season crops - the amount of Spain covered by glass is utterly staggering).
Sway said:
We've a 30 hectare glasshouse pepper growing facility near me. All incredibly efficient, with CHP plant providing heating using a biodigester that consumes green waste from both their and neighbouring farms.
They also have 25 hectares of glasshouse in Spain (winter season crops - the amount of Spain covered by glass is utterly staggering).
You might have seen a comment from me on another thread about an as yet proposed mixed power and heat scheme , wind, pv solar, hydro and gas from a biodigester using farm and suitable woodland biomass waste in a suitable location. Now you might add 2+2 and get a glass covered answer. Bit further north than you though. All for it personally.They also have 25 hectares of glasshouse in Spain (winter season crops - the amount of Spain covered by glass is utterly staggering).
Agree about Spain. Staggering from the air.
FiF said:
Sway said:
We've a 30 hectare glasshouse pepper growing facility near me. All incredibly efficient, with CHP plant providing heating using a biodigester that consumes green waste from both their and neighbouring farms.
They also have 25 hectares of glasshouse in Spain (winter season crops - the amount of Spain covered by glass is utterly staggering).
You might have seen a comment from me on another thread about an as yet proposed mixed power and heat scheme , wind, pv solar, hydro and gas from a biodigester using farm and suitable woodland biomass waste in a suitable location. Now you might add 2+2 and get a glass covered answer. Bit further north than you though. All for it personally.They also have 25 hectares of glasshouse in Spain (winter season crops - the amount of Spain covered by glass is utterly staggering).
Agree about Spain. Staggering from the air.
The one I project managed was one of the very first in the country. All self funded, pay back (when we combined the heat, power, feed in, solid fertiliser sales and free liquid fertiliser) was 18 months.
I won them a couple of Best Factory awards for that one - both for sustainability and continuous improvement, as we completely changed our packhorse methods to provide both improved sorting/packing efficiency but also optimum 'feedstock' creation/automatic ratio management. Got me into FS in 09 on that back of that job.
That was pure biodigester. Even better when you've hydroponic crops, we had to dig a lake for the liquid effluent so it could be diluted by rainfall prior to being sprayed on the crops.
Back on topic - we'd lose the UK's new Tariff Schedule, which has both massively simplified commodity codes as well as lowering the overall tariff burden on business, whilst increasing funding into the Exchequer. As a net importing nation, that's quite a biggie.
Sway said:
FiF said:
Sway said:
We've a 30 hectare glasshouse pepper growing facility near me. All incredibly efficient, with CHP plant providing heating using a biodigester that consumes green waste from both their and neighbouring farms.
They also have 25 hectares of glasshouse in Spain (winter season crops - the amount of Spain covered by glass is utterly staggering).
You might have seen a comment from me on another thread about an as yet proposed mixed power and heat scheme , wind, pv solar, hydro and gas from a biodigester using farm and suitable woodland biomass waste in a suitable location. Now you might add 2+2 and get a glass covered answer. Bit further north than you though. All for it personally.They also have 25 hectares of glasshouse in Spain (winter season crops - the amount of Spain covered by glass is utterly staggering).
Agree about Spain. Staggering from the air.
The one I project managed was one of the very first in the country. All self funded, pay back (when we combined the heat, power, feed in, solid fertiliser sales and free liquid fertiliser) was 18 months.
I won them a couple of Best Factory awards for that one - both for sustainability and continuous improvement, as we completely changed our packhorse methods to provide both improved sorting/packing efficiency but also optimum 'feedstock' creation/automatic ratio management. Got me into FS in 09 on that back of that job.
That was pure biodigester. Even better when you've hydroponic crops, we had to dig a lake for the liquid effluent so it could be diluted by rainfall prior to being sprayed on the crops.
Back on topic - we'd lose the UK's new Tariff Schedule, which has both massively simplified commodity codes as well as lowering the overall tariff burden on business, whilst increasing funding into the Exchequer. As a net importing nation, that's quite a biggie.
FiF said:
That payback is eye opening. Hmmmm, wondering if 'consortium' trying to make overall scheme too complicated.
It's a complex picture, and will vary massively by operation.We had only a small area to heat - so low temp hot water, plus heat pump was sufficient to heat it in winter.
Packhouse was kept chilled, so that and production kit took the power.
Long time ago, so feed in rates were much better.
We could sell the particulate waste for a bloody decent price to turn into solid fertiliser, and used the 'waste' water as liquid fertiliser for the fields. That used to cost a fair bloody amount!
Then take into account the green waste we were no longer paying to dispose of, no doubt a fair few grants towards the costs, etc. - and you can come to a very different result for an ostensibly similar scheme.
You're much colder than we are, and if they're doing warm weather crops then you need a lot more heat. Your biomass isn't 'free waste', it has to be processed. Etc.
Murph7355 said:
Quit being lazy and get yourself visas if it's important enough.
You don't need sledgehammer measures to look after yourself.
So as part of our taking back control, we'd be the only Europeans (apart from Ukrainians and Russians presumably) to totally lose the freedom to travel as we wish? You don't need sledgehammer measures to look after yourself.
From what I've read, visas are a 3 month process. If their efficiency is anything like our passport offices, anything like our bureaucratic efficiency, we're stuffed.
I am amazed at how much freedoms you guys are happy to surrender, truly amazed. And for what? Just to be able to say the word "sovereignty"?
heebeegeetee said:
So as part of our taking back control, we'd be the only Europeans (apart from Ukrainians and Russians presumably) to totally lose the freedom to travel as we wish?
From what I've read, visas are a 3 month process. If their efficiency is anything like our passport offices, anything like our bureaucratic efficiency, we're stuffed.
I am amazed at how much freedoms you guys are happy to surrender, truly amazed. And for what? Just to be able to say the word "sovereignty"?
Forgive me, but do all 44 European nations have FoM between them?From what I've read, visas are a 3 month process. If their efficiency is anything like our passport offices, anything like our bureaucratic efficiency, we're stuffed.
I am amazed at how much freedoms you guys are happy to surrender, truly amazed. And for what? Just to be able to say the word "sovereignty"?
How many other countries worldwide think such arrangements are sensible? Presumably you have never travelled outside of the 27 members states of the EU?
If you want a visa, apply for one (or sit and moan. Which seems to be what plenty of those on here who support the EU do). If you can confirm you aren't going to be a burden on your host nation, you should be fine. If you can't, you won't. Where are the issues with that?
I don't believe I have surrendered a "freedom" (I have visions of you doing a Mel Gibson on that one). I can still travel to the EU states as much as I want/need. Just as I could travel to most other places I'd be inclined to visit. Should I ever need to work in the EU member states I am very sure, from experience worldwide, it will present no issues.
crankedup5 said:
I pondered how many people work within the ‘whole’ EU that keep it all running, apparently it’s around 60,000 employees. Because I have nothing better to do this morning I looked up the pay packages for EU Commission employees. No. wonder UK politicians liked the idea of taking a seat over there. Gravy train doesn’t cover it, it’s the first time I have bothered to have a look at the pay rates, thankfully I can be happy that my money no longer contributes to that gravey train, apart from some tied in obligations of course.
I'm with you on that, that gravy train is massive, wholly unacceptable, and tangibly undermining the whole project.Thing is of course, you'll never see the difference, you'll never be able to point to a single £1 and say that's my share of the £350 mill we're no longer paying.
On the other hand, you will be able to see extra costs of shipping to or receiving from the EU, or from extra paperwork and checks etc. We can see the cost of living crisis, which Brexit is fundamentally part of.
From today's Torygraph (behind paywall): "EasyJet is cancelling flights because it can’t find the staff to crew its planes. Heathrow is in chaos because it doesn’t have enough people to handle the baggage. Restaurants are slimming back menus because there is no one to work the kitchens, and shops don’t have enough people to drive the vans and stock the shelves. Quite aside from the strikes, it is becoming painfully clear that the country is grinding to a halt because we don’t have enough people to do all the jobs that need to be done. Sure, it is easy to blame our departure from the..."
Taking back control. Love it.
heebeegeetee said:
crankedup5 said:
I pondered how many people work within the ‘whole’ EU that keep it all running, apparently it’s around 60,000 employees. Because I have nothing better to do this morning I looked up the pay packages for EU Commission employees. No. wonder UK politicians liked the idea of taking a seat over there. Gravy train doesn’t cover it, it’s the first time I have bothered to have a look at the pay rates, thankfully I can be happy that my money no longer contributes to that gravey train, apart from some tied in obligations of course.
I'm with you on that, that gravy train is massive, wholly unacceptable, and tangibly undermining the whole project.Thing is of course, you'll never see the difference, you'll never be able to point to a single £1 and say that's my share of the £350 mill we're no longer paying.
On the other hand, you will be able to see extra costs of shipping to or receiving from the EU, or from extra paperwork and checks etc. We can see the cost of living crisis, which Brexit is fundamentally part of.
From today's Torygraph (behind paywall): "EasyJet is cancelling flights because it can’t find the staff to crew its planes. Heathrow is in chaos because it doesn’t have enough people to handle the baggage. Restaurants are slimming back menus because there is no one to work the kitchens, and shops don’t have enough people to drive the vans and stock the shelves. Quite aside from the strikes, it is becoming painfully clear that the country is grinding to a halt because we don’t have enough people to do all the jobs that need to be done. Sure, it is easy to blame our departure from the..."
Taking back control. Love it.
https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/news/germanys-luf...
https://indianexpress.com/article/world/air-france...
https://uk.news.yahoo.com/passengers-wait-long-lin...
Long queues remain at Schiphol airport after hellish weekend for travellers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVoxw3UfRrk
Chaos at Amsterdam's Schiphol airport due to staff shortages and number of passengers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yS2wosQW1b4
crankedup5 said:
I pondered how many people work within the ‘whole’ EU that keep it all running, apparently it’s around 60,000 employees. Because I have nothing better to do this morning I looked up the pay packages for EU Commission employees. No. wonder UK politicians liked the idea of taking a seat over there. Gravy train doesn’t cover it, it’s the first time I have bothered to have a look at the pay rates, thankfully I can be happy that my money no longer contributes to that gravey train, apart from some tied in obligations of course.
And yet it allows the EU to function.An example, UK has long aligned to REACH directives for managing potentially harmful substances. Going forward EU will add approx 10 items every year to their substance list.
The UK was intended to copy this to ensure businesses operated on an even footing. Except it's going to take 2.5, years for the first two substances to be added to the UK equivalent. The bow wave will be huge.
don'tbesilly said:
heebeegeetee said:
crankedup5 said:
I pondered how many people work within the ‘whole’ EU that keep it all running, apparently it’s around 60,000 employees. Because I have nothing better to do this morning I looked up the pay packages for EU Commission employees. No. wonder UK politicians liked the idea of taking a seat over there. Gravy train doesn’t cover it, it’s the first time I have bothered to have a look at the pay rates, thankfully I can be happy that my money no longer contributes to that gravey train, apart from some tied in obligations of course.
I'm with you on that, that gravy train is massive, wholly unacceptable, and tangibly undermining the whole project.Thing is of course, you'll never see the difference, you'll never be able to point to a single £1 and say that's my share of the £350 mill we're no longer paying.
On the other hand, you will be able to see extra costs of shipping to or receiving from the EU, or from extra paperwork and checks etc. We can see the cost of living crisis, which Brexit is fundamentally part of.
From today's Torygraph (behind paywall): "EasyJet is cancelling flights because it can’t find the staff to crew its planes. Heathrow is in chaos because it doesn’t have enough people to handle the baggage. Restaurants are slimming back menus because there is no one to work the kitchens, and shops don’t have enough people to drive the vans and stock the shelves. Quite aside from the strikes, it is becoming painfully clear that the country is grinding to a halt because we don’t have enough people to do all the jobs that need to be done. Sure, it is easy to blame our departure from the..."
Taking back control. Love it.
https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/news/germanys-luf...
https://indianexpress.com/article/world/air-france...
https://uk.news.yahoo.com/passengers-wait-long-lin...
Long queues remain at Schiphol airport after hellish weekend for travellers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVoxw3UfRrk
Chaos at Amsterdam's Schiphol airport due to staff shortages and number of passengers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yS2wosQW1b4
Of course our workforce now have a higher value and so are perfectly entitled to request higher renumeration, so it looks like we might be facing a summer of strikes too.
Evanivitch said:
crankedup5 said:
I pondered how many people work within the ‘whole’ EU that keep it all running, apparently it’s around 60,000 employees. Because I have nothing better to do this morning I looked up the pay packages for EU Commission employees. No. wonder UK politicians liked the idea of taking a seat over there. Gravy train doesn’t cover it, it’s the first time I have bothered to have a look at the pay rates, thankfully I can be happy that my money no longer contributes to that gravey train, apart from some tied in obligations of course.
And yet it allows the EU to function.An example, UK has long aligned to REACH directives for managing potentially harmful substances. Going forward EU will add approx 10 items every year to their substance list.
The UK was intended to copy this to ensure businesses operated on an even footing. Except it's going to take 2.5, years for the first two substances to be added to the UK equivalent. The bow wave will be huge.
heebeegeetee said:
From today's Torygraph (behind paywall): "EasyJet is cancelling flights because it can’t find the staff to crew its planes. Heathrow is in chaos because it doesn’t have enough people to handle the baggage. Restaurants are slimming back menus because there is no one to work the kitchens, and shops don’t have enough people to drive the vans and stock the shelves. Quite aside from the strikes, it is becoming painfully clear that the country is grinding to a halt because we don’t have enough people to do all the jobs that need to be done. Sure, it is easy to blame our departure from the..."
Huge shortage in engineering too.crankedup5 said:
Why is it going to take UK REACH 2.5 years for just two chemical substances to be added to our existing list?
Because we didn't have the personnel in place (60 new hires by DEFRA recently) and we don't have the legislative process in place (committees and debate) to update the legislation at the same pace as the EU is able to.Ukandeu.ac.uk continue to report on it.
Evanivitch said:
crankedup5 said:
Why is it going to take UK REACH 2.5 years for just two chemical substances to be added to our existing list?
Because we didn't have the personnel in place (60 new hires by DEFRA recently) and we don't have the legislative process in place (committees and debate) to update the legislation at the same pace as the EU is able to.Ukandeu.ac.uk continue to report on it.
But I take your point regarding time lags, sometimes being small and agile works against us.
Edited by crankedup5 on Friday 24th June 11:33
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