If Britain rejoined the EU tomorrow…

[FiF]

Remain / Rejoin still on the everything is down to Brexit. Nothing from the effect of lockdowns, oh no, nothing to do with that, oh no.

Similar things happening in other areas of EU and RoW.

Silence for a bit, then, but but but but Brexit...

[Biggy Stardust]

heebeegeetee said:

Except EU can move people about. They have a real, tangible method of contributing to the solutions, we sanctioned ourselves in this regard.

All that ability to move people about but they still have problems in Germany, France, Holland.......................

As for freedom to travel to EU, I'm going to Slovakia shortly & EU membership or not hasn't changed anything for me.

[heebeegeetee]

Murph7355 said:

Forgive me, but do all 44 European nations have FoM between them?

How many other countries worldwide think such arrangements are sensible? Presumably you have never travelled outside of the 27 members states of the EU?

If you want a visa, apply for one (or sit and moan. Which seems to be what plenty of those on here who support the EU do). If you can confirm you aren't going to be a burden on your host nation, you should be fine. If you can't, you won't. Where are the issues with that?

I don't believe I have surrendered a "freedom" (I have visions of you doing a Mel Gibson on that one). I can still travel to the EU states as much as I want/need. Just as I could travel to most other places I'd be inclined to visit. Should I ever need to work in the EU member states I am very sure, from experience worldwide, it will present no issues.

This is just bonkers.

Why would i want to "apply for one"? There's two of us travelling, plus we obviously may want to visit or travel through 5-7 countries so now we're at 10-14 visas, that has to be applied for well in advance, and then we wait (and pay), with no control over the process whatsoever despite the PROMISE that we were taking back control.

I'm glad you're happy with your arrangements, I have said that for most people 'travel' is a fortnights holiday in the sun, but also a great many people want to do more than that.

I'm retired. Don't we all want to retire at some point, isn't it a key thing we work for? None of us know how many years of healthy living while not working we have, so I'm amazed at how blase people are being with their freedoms. I guess people just don't want to look ahead. If we go to a trade war, because Boris can not get Brexit done done, who knows what that holds in store for us?

I'm glad you think your freedom us the same as it was, but this Englishman knows that his freedom has been materially reduced. I'm amazed at what people have been happy to surrender, and so far, 6 years in, barely one single tangible benefit can be felt, in exchange for these freedoms, and even Lord Frost is now saying we may never know what benefits Brexit may bring us.

[crankedup5]

FiF said:

Remain / Rejoin still on the everything is down to Brexit. Nothing from the effect of lockdowns, oh no, nothing to do with that, oh no.

Similar things happening in other areas of EU and RoW.

Silence for a bit, then, but but but but Brexit...

Yes I agree, in my last post I was going to add that the two year virtual shutdown of the World,
blah de blah, but it seems that it falls on deaf ears. Not saying that Evantitch would dismiss the point, perhaps he may accept it as reasonable.
Looking at the post regarding our current problems in transport, quick to ‘diss’ the U.K. whilst completely ignoring the self same problem across mainland Europe.

[768]

TwigtheWonderkid said:

P. ONeill said:

If Britain rejoined the EU tomorrow, which Brexit benefits would you miss the most?

We'd lose the increase in the IQ of the average EU citizen that occurred on the day we left.

I know, but OOI. It's about 101 for England and Wales, brought down a bit by those north of the borders. Can't think why Luxembourg suffers.

[heebeegeetee]

crankedup5 said:

Yes I agree, in my last post I was going to add that the two year virtual shutdown of the World,
blah de blah, but it seems that it falls on deaf ears. Not saying that Evantitch would dismiss the point, perhaps he may accept it as reasonable.
Looking at the post regarding our current problems in transport, quick to ‘diss’ the U.K. whilst completely ignoring the self same problem across mainland Europe.

If it's the self same problem (the numerous links seem to refer to one airport on a continent), then FOM couldn't have made any difference, so what's the problem with it?

[Evanivitch]

crankedup5 said:

Evanivitch said:

crankedup5 said:

Why is it going to take UK REACH 2.5 years for just two chemical substances to be added to our existing list?

Because we didn't have the personnel in place (60 new hires by DEFRA recently) and we don't have the legislative process in place (committees and debate) to update the legislation at the same pace as the EU is able to.

Ukandeu.ac.uk continue to report on it.

Thanks, I had a feeling that it would be staff shortages! but I’m surprised that the U.K. are slow off the mark but that as processes fall into place across the extremely broad ranges of other controls and safeguards as we go forward the time lag will diminish. Further presume that U.K. REACH will place a ‘chemical for investigation’ in the book following REACH.
But I take your point regarding time lags, sometimes being small and agile works against us.

Edited by crankedup5 on Friday 24th June 11:33

But we're not small and agile. We're just small. No one is making real time agile decisions.

As a result, Northern Ireland will be under entirely separate REACH legislation and the UKCA/CE standards will begin to seperate. A huge burden on UK exporters to Europe.

[don'tbesilly]

heebeegeetee said:

Except EU can move people about. They have a real, tangible method of contributing to the solutions, we sanctioned ourselves in this regard.

Of course our workforce now have a higher value and so are perfectly entitled to request higher renumeration, so it looks like we might be facing a summer of strikes too.

Yet they still have the same problems in Europe that exist in the UK.

Apparently "They have a real, tangible method of contributing to the solutions", but the problems exist and no solutions have been forthcoming if the solutions exist why are the issues showing up in Germany, the Netherlands, and across Europe.

Time to take the blinkers off Fella.

[FiF]

heebeegeetee said:

Murph7355 said:

Forgive me, but do all 44 European nations have FoM between them?

How many other countries worldwide think such arrangements are sensible? Presumably you have never travelled outside of the 27 members states of the EU?

If you want a visa, apply for one (or sit and moan. Which seems to be what plenty of those on here who support the EU do). If you can confirm you aren't going to be a burden on your host nation, you should be fine. If you can't, you won't. Where are the issues with that?

I don't believe I have surrendered a "freedom" (I have visions of you doing a Mel Gibson on that one). I can still travel to the EU states as much as I want/need. Just as I could travel to most other places I'd be inclined to visit. Should I ever need to work in the EU member states I am very sure, from experience worldwide, it will present no issues.

This is just bonkers.

Why would i want to "apply for one"? There's two of us travelling, plus we obviously may want to visit or travel through 5-7 countries so now we're at 10-14 visas, that has to be applied for well in advance, and then we wait (and pay), with no control over the process whatsoever despite the PROMISE that we were taking back control.

I'm glad you're happy with your arrangements, I have said that for most people 'travel' is a fortnights holiday in the sun, but also a great many people want to do more than that.

I'm retired. Don't we all want to retire at some point, isn't it a key thing we work for? None of us know how many years of healthy living while not working we have, so I'm amazed at how blase people are being with their freedoms. I guess people just don't want to look ahead. If we go to a trade war, because Boris can not get Brexit done done, who knows what that holds in store for us?

I'm glad you think your freedom us the same as it was, but this Englishman knows that his freedom has been materially reduced. I'm amazed at what people have been happy to surrender, and so far, 6 years in, barely one single tangible benefit can be felt, in exchange for these freedoms, and even Lord Frost is now saying we may never know what benefits Brexit may bring us.

I'll regret this but what's all this about 10-14 visas.

Assuming it's all in Schengen area and less than 90 days in 180 then just crack on covered by visa waiver scheme. If it's more than 90 days then you just need to apply for a Schengen visa to the consulate of the nation where you will spend the most time, or if you don't know the answer to that then it's the consulate of the nation where you will first cross the border into the Schengen region on your first trip. That's it done.

If it's outside Schengen then it all depends on the details, as would have been the case anyway.

All this wailing and caterwauling just shows up as the reason why I lost patience and took myself off most of the Brexit threads due to fools who need to stick their bottom lips back in, to coin a Sway phrase.

[heebeegeetee]

FiF said:

I'll regret this but what's all this about 10-14 visas.

.

Just to save you going any further - in the event of a trade war. I'm told that in the event of a trade war, we lose our 90/180 day allowance, that visas have to be applied for individual country, can take up to 3 months and I don't know the cost.

If you can clarify that would be great, but I'm only talking of in the event of a trade war as Boris seems to be struggling to get Brexit done.

[crankedup5]

Evanivitch said:

crankedup5 said:

Evanivitch said:

crankedup5 said:

Why is it going to take UK REACH 2.5 years for just two chemical substances to be added to our existing list?

Because we didn't have the personnel in place (60 new hires by DEFRA recently) and we don't have the legislative process in place (committees and debate) to update the legislation at the same pace as the EU is able to.

Ukandeu.ac.uk continue to report on it.

Thanks, I had a feeling that it would be staff shortages! but I’m surprised that the U.K. are slow off the mark but that as processes fall into place across the extremely broad ranges of other controls and safeguards as we go forward the time lag will diminish. Further presume that U.K. REACH will place a ‘chemical for investigation’ in the book following REACH.
But I take your point regarding time lags, sometimes being small and agile works against us.

Edited by crankedup5 on Friday 24th June 11:33

But we're not small and agile. We're just small. No one is making real time agile decisions.

As a result, Northern Ireland will be under entirely separate REACH legislation and the UKCA/CE standards will begin to seperate. A huge burden on UK exporters to Europe.

Yes I know that N.I. continue to operate within REACH. I’m guessing that you work within the chemicals industry?
We appeared to be very agile as a Nation in the procurement and distribution of covid vaccine rollout. That shows the U.K. is able to be small and agile as opposed to the monolithic nature of the EU Commission.

[heebeegeetee]

don'tbesilly said:

Yet they still have the same problems in Europe that exist in the UK.

I do not believe that.

For instance, out public transport is very much in the news, but me experience of public transport in EU is of a completely different nature to what I've experienced in UK.

I believe that in many regards we are 50 years behind Europe, BEFORE we get into Brexit/Covid/Ukraine.

I say Europe is absolutely not having the same problems as us.

If they are, then clearly we were right to not invest in infrastructure etc as the EU has, because clearly it makes no difference. No need for us to continue to invest either, clearly.

[crankedup5]

heebeegeetee said:

crankedup5 said:

Yes I agree, in my last post I was going to add that the two year virtual shutdown of the World,
blah de blah, but it seems that it falls on deaf ears. Not saying that Evantitch would dismiss the point, perhaps he may accept it as reasonable.
Looking at the post regarding our current problems in transport, quick to ‘diss’ the U.K. whilst completely ignoring the self same problem across mainland Europe.

If it's the self same problem (the numerous links seem to refer to one airport on a continent), then FOM couldn't have made any difference, so what's the problem with it?

Mainland Europe have many of the same problems as U.K. regarding staff shortages within the industry that you highlighted earlier in the thread.
FOM a is not alleviating their self same staffing issues. So where are the benefits of FOM to that industry?

[Digga]

heebeegeetee said:

don'tbesilly said:

Yet they still have the same problems in Europe that exist in the UK.

I do not believe that.

For instance, out public transport is very much in the news, but me experience of public transport in EU is of a completely different nature to what I've experienced in UK.

I believe that in many regards we are 50 years behind Europe, BEFORE we get into Brexit/Covid/Ukraine.

I say Europe is absolutely not having the same problems as us.

If they are, then clearly we were right to not invest in infrastructure etc as the EU has, because clearly it makes no difference. No need for us to continue to invest either, clearly.

Big difference in quality of roads within EU, but I firmly believe they are, generally, better served with road infrastructure than the UK and, again, as you say, probably decades ahead.

[Evanivitch]

crankedup5 said:

Yes I know that N.I. continue to operate within REACH. I’m guessing that you work within the chemicals industry?
We appeared to be very agile as a Nation in the procurement and distribution of covid vaccine rollout. That shows the U.K. is able to be small and agile as opposed to the monolithic nature of the EU Commission.

Nope, REACH has far wider impacts than chemical industry. It effects nearly every product you own. That's everything from toys to her engines with military equipment in-between.

The UK vaccine rollout was quick because we are small. We could make decisions based purely on our own interests. We have geographically limited distribution. And yes, there was some degree of Agile decision making when contracts were awarded to friends of politicians.

[vonuber]

Digga said:

Big difference in quality of roads within EU, but I firmly believe they are, generally, better served with road infrastructure than the UK and, again, as you say, probably decades ahead.

Public transport infrastructure is miles ahead, especially high speed rail.

[crankedup5]

Evanivitch said:

crankedup5 said:

Yes I know that N.I. continue to operate within REACH. I’m guessing that you work within the chemicals industry?
We appeared to be very agile as a Nation in the procurement and distribution of covid vaccine rollout. That shows the U.K. is able to be small and agile as opposed to the monolithic nature of the EU Commission.

Nope, REACH has far wider impacts than chemical industry. It effects nearly every product you own. That's everything from toys to her engines with military equipment in-between.

The UK vaccine rollout was quick because we are small. We could make decisions based purely on our own interests. We have geographically limited distribution. And yes, there was some degree of Agile decision making when contracts were awarded to friends of politicians.

New chemicals to be added to the list, I looked upon the issue of assessing the chemical before its uses. Sixty new jobs with more to come, sounds good to me. Of course I am very aware that chemicals do have a broad range of uses in our everyday lives. Pleased to see you acknowledge our agility and expertise when critical situations to public health demand such agility,
The U.K. will adapt itself to life outside of the EU, but it will not be an overnight issue. I’m pleased that we are out, I take the view that the longer we stayed in the more difficult our exit would have become.

[crankedup5]

Digga said:

heebeegeetee said:

don'tbesilly said:

Yet they still have the same problems in Europe that exist in the UK.

I do not believe that.

For instance, out public transport is very much in the news, but me experience of public transport in EU is of a completely different nature to what I've experienced in UK.

I believe that in many regards we are 50 years behind Europe, BEFORE we get into Brexit/Covid/Ukraine.

I say Europe is absolutely not having the same problems as us.

If they are, then clearly we were right to not invest in infrastructure etc as the EU has, because clearly it makes no difference. No need for us to continue to invest either, clearly.

Big difference in quality of roads within EU, but I firmly believe they are, generally, better served with road infrastructure than the UK and, again, as you say, probably decades ahead.

Certainly agree regarding some of the mainland European roads, Last time I drove through SpainI was on a dual carriageway which had been recently completed. Mid afternoon during the week IIRC and I was concerned that I was driving on a road that was not yet open for use! I honestly did not see another vehicle mile after mile after mile. Plenty of signs proudly stating that the EU had paid for the work. Just one example of the waste.

[Evanivitch]

crankedup5 said:

New chemicals to be added to the list, I looked upon the issue of assessing the chemical before its uses. Sixty new jobs with more to come, sounds good to me. Of course I am very aware that chemicals do have a broad range of uses in our everyday lives. Pleased to see you acknowledge our agility and expertise when critical situations to public health demand such agility,
The U.K. will adapt itself to life outside of the EU, but it will not be an overnight issue. I’m pleased that we are out, I take the view that the longer we stayed in the more difficult our exit would have become.

I get the impression that you've either never used Agile in an engineering or project context, or you just consider it a buzzword for your own personal trumpeting.

Ironic that you celebrate the creation of 60 jobs purely to duplicate the work already done in the EU. All hail unnecessary bureaucracy.

[Biggy Stardust]

vonuber said:

Digga said:

Big difference in quality of roads within EU, but I firmly believe they are, generally, better served with road infrastructure than the UK and, again, as you say, probably decades ahead.

Public transport infrastructure is miles ahead, especially high speed rail.

How much of all of that did UK pay for, via the generosity of the EU?