If Britain rejoined the EU tomorrow…

[Kermit power]

Sway said:

Kermit power said:

You're claiming there are real, tangible benefits already derived from Brexit, so time to put up or shut up.

I've posted some today which you've ignored.

So read up or shut up.

Unless one of the Mods has been in and axed a load of stuff in that thread, the latest post from anyone was on Sunday? Granted that was from you, but given that your post consisted of the following, I'm not clear of the claimed benefit?

Sway said:

But it's not 'the entire fashion industry' is it?

There's plenty of very high value, actually made in the UK fashion goods. From Northamptonshire cobblers through to Savile Row.

If your market was solely within Continental EU, then you'd have moved long ago - as it's cheaper and always was even in the EU. To suggest you're shifting all of that because of some warehousing and packing staff moves is palpable nonsense.

I have just looked back through this thread, as opposed to the "Brexit Benefits Vol 3" thread which Bandit insists is wall to wall benefits but is strangely unable to highlight an of them, and will answer you separately on the one from 08:27. Looks like we both posted at the same time, and yours was the last post before the new page, so I just hadn't seen it until now.

[Kermit power]

Sway said:

Kermit, there have been 'tangible economic benefits' listed on this thread. I've posted some, as has Deej - and there are others. My firm has massively increased EU sales, as we're finally able to make use of the same inward processing relief for EU sales as our main competitor. The UK tariff schedule is both simpler and cheaper for importers (remember, we're a net importing nation) - and yet concurrently tariff income for the exchequer has increased.

Look, Bandit! Someone has posted an actual tangible economic benefit, rather than pointing at an overgrown forest and saying "you'll find a penny in there if you could just be bothered to look![/]

Sway, coming back to you, would you mind breaking that down a little further, please? You seem to be talking about benefits of increased sales into the EU vs your main competitor, who presumably was already outside the EU to begin with?

A friend of mine set up a small business a couple of years before Brexit with the initial aim of manufacturing all the components in the UK. He rapidly figured out that he could keep the more highly-skilled parts of the process here, but the initial component manufacturing process was completely impossible to do here at UK prices, so he had to move around 20% of his manufacturing process to Poland.

Following on from Brexit, he has been forced to move all the manufacturing into the EU, as his process didn't qualify for exemption from being hit for duty when bringing components into the UK and again when exporting them to Germany to sell via Amazon. As I understand it, you and he seem to have fallen on opposite sides of winning or losing out of IPR? It would be interesting to understand why, and who else is likely to have won or lost as a result of this?

You then move on to perceived benefits for UK importers having to pay less in terms of import tariffs whilst simultaneously increasing the tariff income to the Exchequer. How does that work?

As I've said before (even though Bandit refuses to believe me), given that we've burnt our bridges on beneficial EU membership (as rejoining now without any of our previously negotiated special deals clearly wouldn't be beneficial), I'm desperately hoping that there will be Brexit benefits, so I'd like to really understand the detail now that you've posted some that you've actually experienced, rather than the waffle around "reclaiming our sovereignty" that many others have posted, which leads on to...

Sway said:

Now you're onto 'civil liberties'?!

You're approaching this wrong. With macro level politics, it's simply impossible to prove cause and effect in the way you're looking for it. That's true in normal times (which is why economic forecasts are always, without fail, wrong) and even more so in abnormal times such as after years of frankly ridiculous negotiations followed by pandemic followed by European land war.

I'm not thinking of civil liberties in terms of economic forecasts or tangible financial benefits, but when asking to see said financial benefits, many pro-Brexit posters come back with the line that it wasn't about economic benefits so much as "taking back control", "reclaiming our sovereignty" and lots of other similar rather meaningless soundbites, hence the ask for any real examples of civil liberties we've gained that we didn't previously have.

The most insane one I've seen in this respect is Nigel Farage claiming that the new blue passport is "the first tangible Brexit victory!

So what exactly does this "first tangible Brexit victory" entail?

1. The colour of new passports changes allegedly from burgundy to blue. I'm absolutely convinced mine is black, but never mind, let's say it's blue. More pertinently, we didn't need to leave the EU to change passport colour anyway. We could've reverted to blue and time we wanted! Croatian EU passports are already blue, for example.

2. The new passports are designed in France and printed in Poland by Franco-Dutch firm Gemalto, unlike the old burgundy ones, which were designed and printed in the UK by De La Rue. That cost around 170 British jobs, but Farage probably thought it was fine, as De La Rue sounds funny and foreign anyway.

If that's a Brexit victory, what the fk is a Brexit defeat going to look like???

[Murph7355]

Kermit power]... said:

Look, Bandit! Someone has posted an actual tangible economic benefit....

... and then I wrote a page of waffle in essence dismissing it...

Do we really need extra threads for this?

You want to find trees, go into the forest.

You don't really want to find trees, don't bother. But don't make out you do.

Incidentally, our membership of the EU was way more than economics. It was politics too once it became the EU. You may find that rather a lot of people didn't vote about the economics if you chose to look (which you won't - too hard). They voted because the balance of those things was only going one way, and we would only ever be given one vote.

[Sway]

Kermit power said:

Sway said:

Kermit, there have been 'tangible economic benefits' listed on this thread. I've posted some, as has Deej - and there are others. My firm has massively increased EU sales, as we're finally able to make use of the same inward processing relief for EU sales as our main competitor. The UK tariff schedule is both simpler and cheaper for importers (remember, we're a net importing nation) - and yet concurrently tariff income for the exchequer has increased.

Look, Bandit! Someone has posted an actual tangible economic benefit, rather than pointing at an overgrown forest and saying "you'll find a penny in there if you could just be bothered to look![/]

Sway, coming back to you, would you mind breaking that down a little further, please? You seem to be talking about benefits of increased sales into the EU vs your main competitor, who presumably was already outside the EU to begin with?

A friend of mine set up a small business a couple of years before Brexit with the initial aim of manufacturing all the components in the UK. He rapidly figured out that he could keep the more highly-skilled parts of the process here, but the initial component manufacturing process was completely impossible to do here at UK prices, so he had to move around 20% of his manufacturing process to Poland.

Following on from Brexit, he has been forced to move all the manufacturing into the EU, as his process didn't qualify for exemption from being hit for duty when bringing components into the UK and again when exporting them to Germany to sell via Amazon. As I understand it, you and he seem to have fallen on opposite sides of winning or losing out of IPR? It would be interesting to understand why, and who else is likely to have won or lost as a result of this?

You then move on to perceived benefits for UK importers having to pay less in terms of import tariffs whilst simultaneously increasing the tariff income to the Exchequer. How does that work?

As I've said before (even though Bandit refuses to believe me), given that we've burnt our bridges on beneficial EU membership (as rejoining now without any of our previously negotiated special deals clearly wouldn't be beneficial), I'm desperately hoping that there will be Brexit benefits, so I'd like to really understand the detail now that you've posted some that you've actually experienced, rather than the waffle around "reclaiming our sovereignty" that many others have posted, which leads on to...

Sway said:

Now you're onto 'civil liberties'?!

You're approaching this wrong. With macro level politics, it's simply impossible to prove cause and effect in the way you're looking for it. That's true in normal times (which is why economic forecasts are always, without fail, wrong) and even more so in abnormal times such as after years of frankly ridiculous negotiations followed by pandemic followed by European land war.

I'm not thinking of civil liberties in terms of economic forecasts or tangible financial benefits, but when asking to see said financial benefits, many pro-Brexit posters come back with the line that it wasn't about economic benefits so much as "taking back control", "reclaiming our sovereignty" and lots of other similar rather meaningless soundbites, hence the ask for any real examples of civil liberties we've gained that we didn't previously have.

The most insane one I've seen in this respect is Nigel Farage claiming that the new blue passport is "the first tangible Brexit victory!

So what exactly does this "first tangible Brexit victory" entail?

1. The colour of new passports changes allegedly from burgundy to blue. I'm absolutely convinced mine is black, but never mind, let's say it's blue. More pertinently, we didn't need to leave the EU to change passport colour anyway. We could've reverted to blue and time we wanted! Croatian EU passports are already blue, for example.

2. The new passports are designed in France and printed in Poland by Franco-Dutch firm Gemalto, unlike the old burgundy ones, which were designed and printed in the UK by De La Rue. That cost around 170 British jobs, but Farage probably thought it was fine, as De La Rue sounds funny and foreign anyway.

If that's a Brexit victory, what the fk is a Brexit defeat going to look like???

Yes, our main competitor is outside the EU.

Your friend is telling you porkies. We have a FTA with the EU, so any goods made within either are exempt from duties. IPR completely unnecessary - I have decent chunks of supply chain in the EU. Only time this doesn't kick in is if no value has been added and it's pure resale of stuff made outside EU/UK - that's when IPR kicks in so you'll only pay 'final destination' duties.

There is no scenario based on the info you've given where there was a 'Britain left the customs union so x must happen' reason for what your friend has done. There are a few potential profiteering reasons why they have done so, with the excuse for polite company being 'bloody brexit, grr' - there's rather a lot of that going on.

However, for every example of that, there's a greater example of the opposite - which should be apparent purely due to the facts surrounding the balance of payments...

It's not a "perceived benefit" of having reduced tariff rates. It's a real, tangible benefit for non FTA trade. Wherever the goods aren't produced domestically they are cheaper or zero rated. Where they are, the rates have remained the same.

How does the exchequer get more income despite reduced rates? It no longer has to send 80% of levied duties to the EU...

[anonymous-user]

Kermit power]... said:

Look, Bandit! Someone has posted an actual tangible economic benefit....

Sways way more generous with his time than I am, I was quite happy leaving you in the dark (where you seem to want to stay).

There’s some very knowledgeable posters on the Brexit benefits thread, why don’t you get involved there? I mean, look what you’ve just learned from Sway in just one post on your duplicated thread!

[crankedup5]

Kermit power said:

crankedup5 said:

Kermit power said:

crankedup5 said:

How do you respond to the question of that cheap labour import which was suppressing, wage growth in the U.K.?

As we continue to introduce more tech’ into the work place less labour is required, look at farming how tech has changed labour requirements. Look at industries such as Amazon to see how the future is developing in the work place.

The question of sustainability does not hinge upon mass immigration, it requires shifting the balance of physical employment into tech’ and robotics, that is an unstoppable force. Crop pickers will soon be no longer required as robotics develop.

For me it’s not a question of continuing in the ‘old ways’ but for developing efficiency from technology.

You're starting with an assumption that migration pushes down wages. It can, of course, but given that we've had full employment the whole time, I think it more likely wages have been suppressed by our apparent inability to generate added value in the UK compared to our competitors.

Certainly many of the jobs we do today will be replaced by automation, but I don't think that will put people out of work, so much as move people into other jobs. We've been saying that people will be completely replaced by machines since the days of the original luddites, but it never quite happens.

I started with a recognition that onward cheap labour did suppress wages for the lower paid workers. That aside, I also reject the inward low cost labour on the basis that it stifles what we have been talking about, tech, innovation and robotics. For example cutting flowers or cabbages, knowing that you as a business owner will have the low cost labour coming in to carry out those tasks will discourage capital investment into mechanisation. ?

That's quite possible, but mechanisation then wipes out the low paid jobs, rather than the jobs still existing but with somewhat lower wages, so it still doesn't seem much of a benefit for the people actually performing the low-skilled jobs whether they're born here or in Eastern Europe, does it?

Going back to some in here saying that the U.K. indigenous folk don’t want to work in these low paid jobs. That is certainly being born out hearing from employers at the lower end skills market, that being so the sooner these jobs are mechanised the better.

[Kermit power]

Murph7355 said:

... and then I wrote a page of waffle in essence dismissing it...

Do we really need extra threads for this?

You want to find trees, go into the forest.

You don't really want to find trees, don't bother. But don't make out you do.

Incidentally, our membership of the EU was way more than economics. It was politics too once it became the EU. You may find that rather a lot of people didn't vote about the economics if you chose to look (which you won't - too hard). They voted because the balance of those things was only going one way, and we would only ever be given one vote.

Fortunately Sway actually read what I wrote and responded sensibly.

[Kermit power]

Sway said:

Yes, our main competitor is outside the EU.

Your friend is telling you porkies. We have a FTA with the EU, so any goods made within either are exempt from duties. IPR completely unnecessary - I have decent chunks of supply chain in the EU. Only time this doesn't kick in is if no value has been added and it's pure resale of stuff made outside EU/UK - that's when IPR kicks in so you'll only pay 'final destination' duties.

There is no scenario based on the info you've given where there was a 'Britain left the customs union so x must happen' reason for what your friend has done. There are a few potential profiteering reasons why they have done so, with the excuse for polite company being 'bloody brexit, grr' - there's rather a lot of that going on.

However, for every example of that, there's a greater example of the opposite - which should be apparent purely due to the facts surrounding the balance of payments...

It's not a "perceived benefit" of having reduced tariff rates. It's a real, tangible benefit for non FTA trade. Wherever the goods aren't produced domestically they are cheaper or zero rated. Where they are, the rates have remained the same.

How does the exchequer get more income despite reduced rates? It no longer has to send 80% of levied duties to the EU...

I'll check again with my mate next time I see him, as whilst I may have misunderstood the problem, he certainly wasn't lying about it. He was really pretty distressed at not being able to work out a way of keeping the UK element whilst also making money. The main thing I'm clear on was that the issue seemed to be with goods going from the EU to the UK and then back in to the EU again. Crossing once wasn't a problem, it was the second time that caused the issues.

Thanks for the explanation on the tariffs staying with the UK exchequer. That seems pretty straightforward, and does look at last like a truly tangible benefit. God only knows why Bandit et al can't post theirs like that?

[Sway]

As I say, I have a lot of EU based supply chain - and sell a fair amount to the EU using that stuff within the finished goods...

[anonymous-user]

Kermit power said:

God only knows why Bandit et al can't post theirs like that?

Perhaps you should join the Brexit benefits thread?

Edited by anonymous-user on Tuesday 28th June 22:29

[Murph7355]

Kermit power said:

....
Thanks for the explanation on the tariffs staying with the UK exchequer. That seems pretty straightforward, and does look at last like a truly tangible benefit. God only knows why Bandit et al can't post theirs like that?

You are a massive proponent of the EU and didn't know what happened to these levies?

And then think others are being mean for not repeating stuff that is already posted in the other threads on the topic that you couldn't be arsed to read?

As per Bandit, Sway is too generous with his time

[Digga]

Mortarboard said:

Kermit power said:

On top of that is the irony that automation is ultimately self-limiting anyway.

The more people it puts out of work, the fewer people there are who can afford to buy the output from those automated factories, so the less money there is coming in to but and maintain the machines.

Ultimately automation has only ever and will only ever accelerated the change of employment of various sections of society.

Ignoring production output, aren't we?

M.

Quite. No one could afford to kit their whole house in hand made light bulbs.

The issue for UK was that all business grants had to be ex-EU and comply with their rules. Hence the dogmatic adherence to ‘job creation’. Very much a case of ‘one size fits all(fk all).’

[Kermit power]

Murph7355 said:

Kermit power said:

....
Thanks for the explanation on the tariffs staying with the UK exchequer. That seems pretty straightforward, and does look at last like a truly tangible benefit. God only knows why Bandit et al can't post theirs like that?

You are a massive proponent of the EU and didn't know what happened to these levies?

And then think others are being mean for not repeating stuff that is already posted in the other threads on the topic that you couldn't be arsed to read?

As per Bandit, Sway is too generous with his time

Ooh, did that make you feel like the big boy in the playground poppet? The Crabbe to Bandit's Malfoy?

This may come as a surprise to you, but some people are prepared to accept that they don't know everything about everything, and are willing to go out and learn.

There are people like Sway who are willing to respond constructively to that sort of position and helpfully move the conversation forwards, and then there are people like you and Bandit who aren't.

The palpable sense of relief in your reaction to my acknowledging Sway's point that I wasn't aware of almost makes it feel like you don't actually know what benefits you'd received, so maybe if you keep paying attention, you'll be able to find out?

[Kermit power]

Bandit said:

Kermit power]... said:

Look, Bandit! Someone has posted an actual tangible economic benefit....

Sways way more generous with his time than I am, I was quite happy leaving you in the dark (where you seem to want to stay).

There’s some very knowledgeable posters on the Brexit benefits thread, why don’t you get involved there? I mean, look what you’ve just learned from Sway in just one post on your duplicated thread!

I'm not sure why you're thinking of this as "my" thread?

I did start one trying to get people to actually give clear examples of Brexit benefits so that people who wanted to learn more actually could without having to wade through hundreds of pages of irrelevance trying to find them, but sadly the Mods decided that people would be unwilling to provide objective answers, so they shut it down. Who knows? Maybe if Sway had got to it before you, it might still be open with people posting objective benefits in it?

With regards to Sway's point about all tariffs remaining with HMG rather than 80% flowing to the EU, that would appear to add around £2.5Bn to the benefits side.

Does that compensate for the cost to businesses of having to deal with extra customs processing, declarations of origin and all that sort of thing?

I don't know, so I shall endeavour to find out and report back. That's what actually happens when people want to move a conversation forwards.

[anonymous-user]

Kermit power said:

I'm not sure why you're thinking of this as "my" thread?

I did start one trying to get people to actually give clear examples of Brexit benefits so that people who wanted to learn more actually could without having to wade through hundreds of pages of irrelevance trying to find them, but sadly the Mods decided that people would be unwilling to provide objective answers, so they shut it down. Who knows? Maybe if Sway had got to it before you, it might still be open with people posting objective benefits in it?

My apologies. You see I lose track of all the duplicate threads remainers try and start about there being/not being any Brexit benefits. Im glad yours was shut down. Lets hope this one goes the same way hey !
Im also not sure how you consider a 1500 page thread about Brexit benefits an "irrelevance" around to the topic of the benefits of Brexit? But heyho, maybe thats just me !

Kermit power said:

regards to Sway's point about all tariffs remaining with HMG rather than 80% flowing to the EU, that would appear to add around £2.5Bn to the benefits side.

Does that compensate for the cost to businesses of having to deal with extra customs processing, declarations of origin and all that sort of thing?

I don't know, so I shall endeavour to find out and report back. That's what actually happens when people want to move a conversation forwards.

..well you could just read & participate in the Brexit benefits thread ? -------->
Please do report back, Im certainly waiting on tenterhooks with what you might discover

Edited by anonymous-user on Wednesday 29th June 08:48

[Kermit power]

Bandit said:

Kermit power said:

I'm not sure why you're thinking of this as "my" thread?

I did start one trying to get people to actually give clear examples of Brexit benefits so that people who wanted to learn more actually could without having to wade through hundreds of pages of irrelevance trying to find them, but sadly the Mods decided that people would be unwilling to provide objective answers, so they shut it down. Who knows? Maybe if Sway had got to it before you, it might still be open with people posting objective benefits in it?

My apologies. You see I lose track of all the duplicate threads remainers try and start about there being/not being any Brexit benefits. Im glad yours was shut down. Lets hope this one goes the same way hey !
Im also not sure how you consider a 1500 page thread about Brexit benefits an "irrelevance" around to the topic of the benefits of Brexit? But heyho, maybe thats just me !

Kermit power said:

regards to Sway's point about all tariffs remaining with HMG rather than 80% flowing to the EU, that would appear to add around £2.5Bn to the benefits side.

Does that compensate for the cost to businesses of having to deal with extra customs processing, declarations of origin and all that sort of thing?

I don't know, so I shall endeavour to find out and report back. That's what actually happens when people want to move a conversation forwards.

..well you could just read & participate in the Brexit benefits thread ? -------->
Please do report back, Im certainly waiting on tenterhooks with what you might discover

You're not waiting on anything at all except for an excuse to try and have another pointless argument for reasons that are beyond me.

I've told you I've tried reading those threads. I've even posted a link to some of my comments on it to prove that I've been reading it. I've also not said that there have categorically not been any tangible benefits posted in there, but that they are so few and far apart between all the crap that they're as good as invisible.

So far, despite your one man crusade to try and drag this thread down to the same level of utter pointlessness, it hasn't been, hence Sway's ability to post a credible benefit and then follow it up without them being separated by twenty pages of drivel from people who seem to think that the repeated use of the word "Remoaner" is somehow emblematic of an Oscar Wilde level of wit.

If I'd been in favour of something and someone who thinks it is a disaster had asked for tangible benefits, been given one, had it clarified and accepted that it is indeed something to put in the benefits column, I'd think that was a very good thing! Apparently you don't, but only you can know why.

[Murph7355]

Kermit power said:

....
This may come as a surprise to you, but some people are prepared to accept that they don't know everything about everything, and are willing to go out and learn....

The palpable sense of relief in your reaction to my acknowledging Sway's point that I wasn't aware of almost makes it feel like you don't actually know what benefits you'd received, so maybe if you keep paying attention, you'll be able to find out?

The point being made is that you aren't really willing to educate yourself. These things have all been covered myriad times before in the other thread. Read them, and if you want to raise the bar, then come up with something new. Sway, bless him, has written what he has plenty of times when those wanting to learn don't listen.

There is no relief (certainly not from people perpetuating multiple threads on the same topic, raising the same "issues" and adding nothing). If you'd read previous threads, you'd know that IMO the whole "economic" argument is a busted flush. My reasons for voting to leave the EU were therefore nothing to do with the economics, and everything to do with the politics.

Had the EU remained the EEC, there would never have been a referendum, nor even talk of it. Some think the political construct and associated overreach is worth it for the benefits they perceive apply to them. Some don't.

Me? Totally happy with the EU thing as I got what I voted for. But that's just the start. I'd now like to see radical political reform in this country to get a better quality of idiot ruling us on a national level.

[Murph7355]

Kermit power said:

....

I did start one trying to get people to actually give clear examples of Brexit benefits so that people who wanted to learn more actually could without having to wade through hundreds of pages of irrelevance trying to find them, but sadly the Mods decided that people would be unwilling to provide objective answers, so they shut it down. Who knows? Maybe if Sway had got to it before you, it might still be open with people posting objective benefits in it?

....

So basically you want someone to create a digest for you, specifically tuned to give you the answers you want with none of the debate/argument/whatever that happens around it?

Maybe, rather than start new threads and get them closed down, you should hire a butler to read things for you and tell you the bits you want to hear?

[anonymous-user]

Murph7355 said:

Kermit power said:

....

I did start one trying to get people to actually give clear examples of Brexit benefits so that people who wanted to learn more actually could without having to wade through hundreds of pages of irrelevance trying to find them, but sadly the Mods decided that people would be unwilling to provide objective answers, so they shut it down. Who knows? Maybe if Sway had got to it before you, it might still be open with people posting objective benefits in it?

....

So basically you want someone to create a digest for you, specifically tuned to give you the answers you want with none of the debate/argument/whatever that happens around it?

Maybe, rather than start new threads and get them closed down, you should hire a butler to read things for you and tell you the bits you want to hear?

[don'tbesilly]

Kermit power said:

I'm not sure why you're thinking of this as "my" thread?

I did start one trying to get people to actually give clear examples of Brexit benefits so that people who wanted to learn more actually could without having to wade through hundreds of pages of irrelevance trying to find them, but sadly the Mods decided that people would be unwilling to provide objective answers, so they shut it down. Who knows? Maybe if Sway had got to it before you, it might still be open with people posting objective benefits in it?

Snipped for relevance.

That is very much your own interpretation for your thread being closed down.

There is zero evidence to support your assertion that the reason above (emboldened) was the reason behind the thread being closed down.

This from 'website feedback ' > https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...

was the reason given for closing the thread, which was in effect an encouragement to you from the moderator to use the existing Brexit thread.