If Britain rejoined the EU tomorrow…
Discussion
Electro1980 said:
No answer, just some insults? So you have nothing. Face it, you were conned.
This. There’s not been one single answer on here that addresses the question. One attempted to “we can do what we want” - which doesn’t appear to have brought any benefits.
Only thing I can think of is that EU states cannot send us speeding tickets anymore, although I note that Spain is playing silly buggers and one of the things they’re after is access to the U.K. dvla database again.
Oh and the duty free (“proper” duty free) drinks allowance has gone up.
Whoop-de-doo
Roofless Toothless said:
This whole conversation begs the question that we would never be able to rejoin the EU under the same terms and conditions that were in place when we left. The ones negotiated by Major, Thatcher, et al. We can never go back to how it was.
Indeed so. There seems to be an underlying assumption from some that we could just turn the clock back and rejoin the EU on the same terms we had before we left; however, I suspect the reality is we'd have little or no chance of resurrecting all the various opt-outs and rebates we had prior to leaving should we apply to rejoin.But given how divisive the 2016 referendum was - and still is, as you can see from some of the threads on here - I doubt very much any political party will be pushing for a re-run in the short or medium-term.....
Murph7355 said:
The start of eroding the number of useless w
ker politicians in our life.
But what I'd miss the most are the incessant threads from people who are still living 6yrs ago
and still cannot fathom why the result went against them.
1. We've still got the full amount of lying cheating corrupt and idiotic British politicians in our midst, but with possibly less checks on them now.ker politicians in our life.But what I'd miss the most are the incessant threads from people who are still living 6yrs ago
and still cannot fathom why the result went against them.
2. I'm not living 6 years ago, I'm living right now and right now I'm living with less tangible freedoms than I had 6 years ago- I've lost the freedom to come and go in Europe as I want (indeed there are now apps so that Britons may check on when they must return home) lost free roaming, travelling with pets, as some of my friends like to do, is so much harder. Recently spoke to a rally co- driver, who was telling me the difficulties and cost now of competing abroad, of entering eu with cars, trailers, tools and equipment. He spoke of carnets, deposits and insurances, and the net result is far fewer Brits are competing than 6 years ago. Boy, we haven't half lost control.
3. No, we KNOW exactly why we lost, which is people REALLY did not know what they were voting for, thats become absolutely apparent talking to my many leave voting friends. We'd become so 'normalised' to benefits of EU that we simply didn't recognise them anymore, plus we've had decades of negative media reporting because it was long recognised that feeding jingoistic and racist appetites absolutely sells news.
The Carole Cadwallader case has also shone more light on Putins involvement, the reasons for the result become ever more clear with the passing of time.
Roofless Toothless said:
This whole conversation begs the question that we would never be able to rejoin the EU under the same terms and conditions that were in place when we left. The ones negotiated by Major, Thatcher, et al. We can never go back to how it was.
Agreed. We had the best deal, we were only one third in anyway, we weren't in Schengen and we weren't in Euro, yes we had to pay full whack but none of us noticed that in our wallets, we're never going to get that deal again imo and I don't think there's any appetite for rejoining.
Rejoining would essentially mean going cap in hand to EU, we're no longer in control and could only get what we're offered, so I fully understand the near total lack of appetite for beginning that process.
I think millions of leavers are still living a (massive, Russian funded) lie, which will take years to sink in, possibly.
crankedup5 said:
I would miss my pure political contentment of our reassurance that the U.K. will not be subsumed into an ever ambitious plot of Federalism.
There’s no way you’re enjoying “political contentment” you’re still constantly complaining about the EU and immigration and remainers, I bet you’re still worried we’ll rejoin somehow in the future.
Brexit hasn’t made the PH reactionaries any happier at all.
Bandit said:
You know theres this 3 x 500 page Brexit benefits thread that been running for 3 years if you want to have a good moan.
No, I don't know this.I haven't had much involvement at all in Brexit threads. I've only recently become a remoaner-in-chief as I've discovered the very many disbenefits. To be fair, this has only become apparent in the past 18 months.
I've simply responded to threads as they've popped up in my feed.
heebeegeetee said:
Bandit said:
You know theres this 3 x 500 page Brexit benefits thread that been running for 3 years if you want to have a good moan.
No, I don't know this.I haven't had much involvement at all in Brexit threads. I've only recently become a remoaner-in-chief as I've discovered the very many disbenefits. To be fair, this has only become apparent in the past 18 months.
I've simply responded to threads as they've popped up in my feed.
paulrockliffe said:
Christ, why do you do this? You've set yourself up for pages of idiots who've skim read it explaining to you why it's actually better that we follow that EU rule. Whatever it is.
Well on the one hand it's better than just letting the idiot(s) continuing to make false claims, it's a definite and provable rebuttal welcomed by the industry and individuals.Therefore it deals with the next stage where said idiots then try to reframe the question in the direction of either a) Wah wah wah, you need to define a benefit that affects you personally. Answer to that , tick, done that. Or b) Wah wah wah, you need to define a benefit that affects everyone in the nation in some way. Refer same answer as part a). Example being tactics by serial forum nuisance formerly known as ///ajd.
As for pages of idiots, they will be ignored, they can continue to shout at the moon.
There is a downside, it took longer to type than simply telling him/ her / them / it to feck off, then when they've fecked off, to feck off some more until they physically are unable to feck off any further.
skwdenyer said:
In fairness, they’re not benefits with tangible form or measurable impact. They’re differences that you find more attractive.
We have no fewer rules to live under. Those that there are will still be made by civil servants. There will still be no accountability.
What we really needed was a revolution in Government; instead we got the same old British politics, only how without any actual constitutional protections or backstops. In your opinion this is great; many others are less convinced.
Your last paragraph suggests you haven't understood my views. We have no fewer rules to live under. Those that there are will still be made by civil servants. There will still be no accountability.
What we really needed was a revolution in Government; instead we got the same old British politics, only how without any actual constitutional protections or backstops. In your opinion this is great; many others are less convinced.
I have utter disdain for all politicians right now, no matter where they are from.
Hence I want the least number in my life. That has been accomplished as a whole layer has been stripped away. Tangible fact.
Making the s
thouses we have here do better is now the next task. Let's see how that pans out over time. But we have a start.You are aware that the EU does not have a constitution either? (They tried that, and failed). So belonging to it gave no constitutional protections either. Just more layers of bureaucracy (arguably based on what started as UK law in large part anyway... So all that was added was layers of politicians). If that what you like, that's fair enough. I do not.
If there's believed to be a need for better protections, vote for a party offering them. If there is no party, start one.
I do agree that radical political reform is needed. We almost had that as a part of Brexit too. It's still available IMO. Will just take time.
Electro1980 said:
Murph7355 said:
You've been given a number on this new thread. And there are plenty on the other.
You just don't see them. Or don't want to.
That's OK. Just don't pretend none have been given.
No I haven’t. No one has given a concrete benefit or a rule we could have made. Just waffle about freedom and sovereignty. A single, tangible, benefit or a rule we could change.You just don't see them. Or don't want to.
That's OK. Just don't pretend none have been given.
I’ll give you the only one I am aware of. Removal of VAT on sanitary products. Not that hard, but no one has given that, because it’s not about facts is it, it’s about “feels”. The fact is that you can’t show any actual benefits.
Is that how it works?
As noted to skwdenyer, I am not a lover of politicians. There has never been a real world problem for which the effective answer was "more politicians please". That we now have less, in my book, is a concrete benefit. Not everything is measured in £s (and none of those arguments are actually "tangible" either if one wishes to debate).
What we do with that benefit will take time. The EU has been going for 30yrs....and yet the real, tangible and irrefutable benefits remained woolly. You need to be patient.
Voldemort said:
Why are leavers (who never tire of saying 'we won, get over it') still scared of remainers?
They abuse them casually at every opportunity and absolutely will not be drawn into backing up enquiries with facts. It's a case of 'do your research, or 'we answered that already.
It's like they know they've taken a wrong turn but are too embarrassed to ask for directions.
I have yet to meet a proud lucid honest leave voter who will engage in an adult manner. They just delight in the misery of others like that's a trait we should all enjoy.
You consider your "engaging" above to be adult?They abuse them casually at every opportunity and absolutely will not be drawn into backing up enquiries with facts. It's a case of 'do your research, or 'we answered that already.
It's like they know they've taken a wrong turn but are too embarrassed to ask for directions.
I have yet to meet a proud lucid honest leave voter who will engage in an adult manner. They just delight in the misery of others like that's a trait we should all enjoy.
This thread was started by a Remainer. Most of the whining is from Remainers who then get retorts from the opposing side (some adult, many not - reap what you sow I guess).
You think "brexs
tters" is raising the bar? You think "gammon" is?It's all facile. Nobody has learnt anything over the last 6yrs. Including you.
Dog Star said:
Electro1980 said:
No answer, just some insults? So you have nothing. Face it, you were conned.
This. There’s not been one single answer on here that addresses the question. One attempted to “we can do what we want” - which doesn’t appear to have brought any benefits.
Only thing I can think of is that EU states cannot send us speeding tickets anymore, although I note that Spain is playing silly buggers and one of the things they’re after is access to the U.K. dvla database again.
Oh and the duty free (“proper” duty free) drinks allowance has gone up.
Whoop-de-doo
fridaypassion said:
The arguments for and against have been more than done to death. However its amazing that Labour and the Libdems haven't come out as having rejoining the EU as a central policy. It would be very popular and a real differentiator come election time. Maybe they will do this. The whole process and outcome has been a complete waste of time.
Their policies worked really, really well in 2019. Very popular (even with Johnson opposing them).Outside of bubbles, most people just want the subject dropped and for us to move on. There are far bigger issues genuinely impacting our lives now, to none of which the answer is "more politicians".
heebeegeetee said:
...
3. No, we KNOW exactly why we lost, which is people REALLY did not know what they were voting for,....
Arrogance didn't win out 6yrs ago. It won't now. It's not a good look.3. No, we KNOW exactly why we lost, which is people REALLY did not know what they were voting for,....
You lost because you could not make a good enough case. Despite having been in the EU for over two decades.
Don't try and blame 17m people for not knowing what they were doing. Blame those putting the case forwards for making an utter s
t show of it.Anyway... There's several volumes of a thread on this. I'll stick to replies over there now. Enjoy this one
FiF said:
OK the derogation of the EU 3 crop rule for anyone farming an area over 35Ha. It was an absolute pita, especially in seasons with especially difficult growing conditions, and the paperwork and bureaucracy involved if you wanted to, say, drill or perform other necessary activities outside the mandated calendar periods, because of, you know, simple things like variable weather, different climates, different soil and geography. One size does not fit all. Never has, never will.
There, you can no longer say nobody has ever identified a single benefit, as would be a lie. It wasn't true when you asked it on this thread as it's been covered elsewhere previously, as have other identified benefits. Being generous it could be that you'd never seen them, being cynical it could be because you've deliberately ignored them because didn't fit your narrative.
No doubt like others it will be ignored for a bit and then the same ignorant question trotted out in the hope folks will think it's an original point.
Thank you. Someone has actually given an answer. I have no idea how significant or not that is, so I can’t comment on it any further, but thank you for actually giving an honest answer to a question.There, you can no longer say nobody has ever identified a single benefit, as would be a lie. It wasn't true when you asked it on this thread as it's been covered elsewhere previously, as have other identified benefits. Being generous it could be that you'd never seen them, being cynical it could be because you've deliberately ignored them because didn't fit your narrative.
No doubt like others it will be ignored for a bit and then the same ignorant question trotted out in the hope folks will think it's an original point.
I haven’t see it on other threads or anywhere else and, frankly, it is quite niche, which is probably why I’m not aware of it. That and 1600 pages (and many more elsewhere) mostly filled with the same “but sovereignty” and bendy banana level crap makes it difficult to get actual facts rather than insults. I am genuinely interested to know what gains we have made as we are out of the EU now, and not going back any time, but it’s difficult to be optimistic when any request for information just comes back with knee jerk insults and fluff.
Out of interest (and this is a genuine question as I don’t know much about either) is this worth the impact on grants and subsidies? I don’t know much about those either, other than the loud noises made by some farmers who may or may not be over reacting.
El stovey said:
crankedup5 said:
I would miss my pure political contentment of our reassurance that the U.K. will not be subsumed into an ever ambitious plot of Federalism.
There’s no way you’re enjoying “political contentment” you’re still constantly complaining about the EU and immigration and remainers, I bet you’re still worried we’ll rejoin somehow in the future.
Brexit hasn’t made the PH reactionaries any happier at all.
getting stamps on my passport looks kinda cool when i travel to spain etc now
that's the only thing i've actually noticed though
brexit stopped my parents buying a second house in the canaries which is really annoying for me as It would have been nice to be able to stay there when they weren't using it
that's the only thing i've actually noticed though
brexit stopped my parents buying a second house in the canaries which is really annoying for me as It would have been nice to be able to stay there when they weren't using it
Electro1980 said:
Thank you. Someone has actually given an answer. I have no idea how significant or not that is, so I can’t comment on it any further, but thank you for actually giving an honest answer to a question.
I haven’t see it on other threads or anywhere else and, frankly, it is quite niche, which is probably why I’m not aware of it. That and 1600 pages (and many more elsewhere) mostly filled with the same “but sovereignty” and bendy banana level crap makes it difficult to get actual facts rather than insults. I am genuinely interested to know what gains we have made as we are out of the EU now, and not going back any time, but it’s difficult to be optimistic when any request for information just comes back with knee jerk insults and fluff.
Out of interest (and this is a genuine question as I don’t know much about either) is this worth the impact on grants and subsidies? I don’t know much about those either, other than the loud noises made by some farmers who may or may not be over reacting.
You're welcome.I haven’t see it on other threads or anywhere else and, frankly, it is quite niche, which is probably why I’m not aware of it. That and 1600 pages (and many more elsewhere) mostly filled with the same “but sovereignty” and bendy banana level crap makes it difficult to get actual facts rather than insults. I am genuinely interested to know what gains we have made as we are out of the EU now, and not going back any time, but it’s difficult to be optimistic when any request for information just comes back with knee jerk insults and fluff.
Out of interest (and this is a genuine question as I don’t know much about either) is this worth the impact on grants and subsidies? I don’t know much about those either, other than the loud noises made by some farmers who may or may not be over reacting.
On the issue of grants and subsidy changes, it's a bit curate's egg, good in parts, not in others.
It's true that there are places where the payments enable an operation to survive. There are places where payments are just an icing on a reasonable cake and would be better directed elsewhere.
Opinions will vary, but mine is that it gives the opportunity to move away from the one size fits all model previously to the opportunity to change a payments system to shape the industry to more what we, as a nation, need.
Two problems there, implementation has been piss poor imo, communication about where going, even worse. Then there is the influence of pressure groups who understand square root of bugger all. For example, rewilding and taking land out of production, in a country where we can not / are not fully feeding the nation. Just seems bats
t crazy to me. But now because of Ukraine, all about turn. Yet it's not like pulling on the handbrake and spinning a car round, people already have things actually in place for 2023 season, and plans being formed for 2024, at least if you're switched on. With prices as they are it's bad enough buying and selling forward, or maybe not actually doing that but just making decisions based on budgets. Only for things to be overturned by a central decision to do this or that, or even more difficult not do something promised and hands being sat on, not to mention complete lack of communication. Agriculture clearly isn't the only industry affected by this sort of fiddling around while Rome burns.Other things make one wonder too. On the one hand Bozzer says going to deal with planning etc to allow massive greenhouses to grow stuff we import. Eg one Dutch outfit have a 25 hectare greenhouse just growing tomatoes. Christ knows what the one growing peppers is. All very well, how does that proposed change and investment sit in our climate with all the net zero malarkey? Yeah it's possible technically, some are doing it, growing salad crops in UK competitively, how widely that can be done and is the capital available, personally don't know. That side of things not my barrow anyway. Just an observation though.
But one thing is right and that is Clarkson's comment that left hand needs to know what right hand is doing. It's not good Govt saying diversify, then local planning and the red trouser brigade saying the answer is no now what's the question.
TL:DR Govt and too many pressure groups don't understand/ don't want to understand / it's like a lot of super tankers who have to be marshalled into different convoys then finding you're herding cats. Doesn’t happen in a year, and if the civil serpents also aren't on board then just wtf. Are individuals over reacting, well uncertainty gets folk nervous when it comes to livelihood no matter what that is, agriculture or manufacturing widgets.
Edited by FiF on Monday 20th June 12:39
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