Nurses, Rail Staff and Now Driving Examiners

[sawman]

Hugo Stiglitz said:

So there is no 20% cut tomorrow.

no, thats been going on over the last 12 years, leading us to the sorry state we are in today. the real terms pay cut that will be imposed later this week is just the 5%(ish, depending on the prevailing inflation rate)

[Murph7355]

chemistry said:

TGCOTF-dewey said:

Get another job is not helpful though. It doesn't solve the problem, it makes it worse as fewer people do the same workload for decreasing salaries.

Then when it goes tits up, the public point out how st the <insert public sector org here> is. See the constant NHS bashing posts on here.

My answer... When it wants to, the government can find the money for private sector bailouts and subsidies, e.g. Banking and furlough.

Perhaps it's about time that the private sector had a more fair taxation system levied on them. For example, Amazon essentially paid zero UK tax in FY21.

I think an element of tax reform to better tax huge companies like Amazon may well be sensible, although implementing it will be difficult given the global nature of these businesses. Alongside this, I also think we should scrap the NHS and adopt something more like the European or Australian public-private healthcare model (especially since Australian system is so good we're losing huge numbers of NHS staff to it....).

How much tax do we think Amazon should pay?

How much tax do we actually think Amazon pay? Not just Corp. Tax, but all taxation.

I think it would be pretty easy to reap more tax from businesses like Amazon...but people wouldn't really like it I suspect.

[Ridgemont]

sawman said:

Hugo Stiglitz said:

So there is no 20% cut tomorrow.

no, thats been going on over the last 12 years, leading us to the sorry state we are in today. the real terms pay cut that will be imposed later this week is just the 5%(ish, depending on the prevailing inflation rate)

I seem to recall reading recently that the overall effect of inflation means that *everyone* is around 15% worse off based on the last 10 years. Perhaps split the difference and call it a 5% pay increase?

Either way my Ex Nurse (ward sister) mum who is in her mid eighties is (and she is no supporter of gov by any means) spitting fire because of this action by the RCN. Utterly reckless and totally against duty of care. People will die. And that isn’t on anyone but the nurses. I suspect her attitude hasn’t been helped by being in hospital just before the pandemic (lucky for her) and seeing (appalled) a total lack of competence, professionalism and the most astonishing levels of lack of empathy. The sheer lack of basic care she saw around her drove her up the wall, and when she heard the nurses demands she pretty much spat her contempt.

[Digga]

Murph7355 said:

How much tax do we think Amazon should pay?

How much tax do we actually think Amazon pay? Not just Corp. Tax, but all taxation.

I think it would be pretty easy to reap more tax from businesses like Amazon...but people wouldn't really like it I suspect.

That’s where we’re at though. The tax loopholes enjoyed by large and multinational corporations are risible.

We could have both lower personal income taxes and also business profit taxes if these firms paid a more realistic tax to access the (very lucrative) UK market.

As it is, they just crowd out smaller firms that are, by any metric, usually paying a higher tax to revenues or earnings.

[Dixy]

Vasco said:

in which case I gather the pay increase will be imposed by the government as other unions have already accepted it.

You are possibly correct, BUT that is the worst possible outcome. That is how the last junior doctors strike ended with Hunt imposing his contract since when there has been a mass exodus and falling moral. It is like the man who jumps out of a skyscraper and as he passes each floor they hear him say so far so good.

[Carl_Manchester]

Ashfordian said:

Maybe you can drive over to a picket line in your Porsche and tell them that you don't think they are worth a few extra hundred pounds a year on their salary...

This narrative that the NHS is always the victim and never the problem is how we got into this situation in the first place.

[sawman]

Ridgemont said:

I seem to recall reading recently that the overall effect of inflation means that *everyone* is around 15% worse off based on the last 10 years. Perhaps split the difference and call it a 5% pay increase?

Either way my Ex Nurse (ward sister) mum who is in her mid eighties is (and she is no supporter of gov by any means) spitting fire because of this action by the RCN. Utterly reckless and totally against duty of care. People will die. And that isn’t on anyone but the nurses. I suspect her attitude hasn’t been helped by being in hospital just before the pandemic (lucky for her) and seeing (appalled) a total lack of competence, professionalism and the most astonishing levels of lack of empathy. The sheer lack of basic care she saw around her drove her up the wall, and when she heard the nurses demands she pretty much spat her contempt.

With the greatest respect to your mum, a lot has changed in the (presumably ) 20 years since she left.
Many of these changes are why she was less than impressed.
These are of the government's making, the staff at the coal face are just tryjng to cope. Diminishing regular staff, increasing bank staff, crumbling buildings etc’

[loskie]

t\Te really sad thing is. If your mum served the NHS for most of her life and has a full pension it's likely her pension is more than the salary of those working. My 94 yr old aunt retired aged 52 from Lancs CC as a teacher. Her pension is the same as my salary.

[JagLover]

sawman said:

These are of the government's making, the staff at the coal face are just tryjng to cope. Diminishing regular staff, increasing bank staff, crumbling buildings etc’

There aren't diminishing numbers of regular staff. The NHS has seen a continual rise in the number of Doctors and Nurses. Up by 45K Nurses since 2010.

There is greater demand to be sure, due to both a rising population and more older people. How efficiently the NHS uses its staff is also something that is massively open to question, but this mental impression some have of an "exodus" or falling numbers is wrong.

[Dixy]

Would you care to show some source for those figures

[Vasco]

JagLover said:

sawman said:

These are of the government's making, the staff at the coal face are just tryjng to cope. Diminishing regular staff, increasing bank staff, crumbling buildings etc’

There aren't diminishing numbers of regular staff. The NHS has seen a continual rise in the number of Doctors and Nurses. Up by 45K Nurses since 2010.

There is greater demand to be sure, due to both a rising population and more older people. How efficiently the NHS uses its staff is also something that is massively open to question, but this mental impression some have of an "exodus" or falling numbers is wrong.

If correct, that's ridiculous.

I'd certainly understood that the Unions are partly labouring the point that so many people are leaving the NHS !!

[JagLover]

Dixy said:

Would you care to show some source for those figures

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/record-numbers-of-nhs-doctors-and-nurses

and if you don't trust the government the HOL looked at it as well

HOL said:

Looking at longer-term trends, the number of FTE non-primary care NHS staff has also grown relative to ten years ago. Between November 2010 and November 2020:

the NHS workforce increased by 15.6%;
the number of professionally qualified clinical staff increased by 15.5%;
the number of doctors increased by 26.9%;
the number of nurses and health visitors increased by 9.1%; and
the number of midwives increased by 15%.

https://lordslibrary.parliament.uk/nhs-staffing-after-covid-19/

The issue seems far more on the demand side, and COVID has also seemed to mess up health provision. Likely as well the NHS could be more efficient in how it uses the staff it has.

[pavarotti1980]

NHS staff council votes to accept pay deal for health workers in England

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/may/02/nh...

[TheLurker]

From what I've seen, they've ended up with a 5% rise? Does anyone know what the original offer was?

I can't imagine all of the strikes were worth it given how much pay they must have lost.

[pavarotti1980]

TheLurker said:

From what I've seen, they've ended up with a 5% rise? Does anyone know what the original offer was?

I can't imagine all of the strikes were worth it given how much pay they must have lost.

22/23 pay rise of c.4% already received + new non-consolidated "bonus payment" of 5%
23/24 pay rise is 5%

Original offer was the 22/23 rise already received and then thought to be 3.5% for 23/24 as per NHS pay review body (who are told what they can award by HMG)

[TheLurker]

pavarotti1980 said:

TheLurker said:

From what I've seen, they've ended up with a 5% rise? Does anyone know what the original offer was?

I can't imagine all of the strikes were worth it given how much pay they must have lost.

22/23 pay rise of c.4% already received + new non-consolidated "bonus payment" of 5%
23/24 pay rise is 5%

Original offer was the 22/23 rise already received and then thought to be 3.5% for 23/24 as per NHS pay review body (who are told what they can award by HMG)

Thanks. So an additional 1.5% plus a one off 5%? Doesn't seem the best reward for all of that upset.

[pavarotti1980]

TheLurker said:

Thanks. So an additional 1.5% plus a one off 5%? Doesn't seem the best reward for all of that upset.

Depends on perspective. Guess its a starting point

[ChocolateFrog]

Seems very low.

Government must be rolling around laughing.

[Dixy]

I am always amazed when some smug hard nosed negotiator thinks they have done a realy good deal and put one over. Most negotiations should end with a win win. When people think they have been screwed they never perform and both sides lose, in this case it is us the public.
Like Ukraine this war is far from over and there will be many more casualties.

[sawman]

pavarotti1980 said:

TheLurker said:

Thanks. So an additional 1.5% plus a one off 5%? Doesn't seem the best reward for all of that upset.

Depends on perspective. Guess its a starting point

The other perspective is it will guarantee unrest and propagate a further nosedive in staff morale. Particularly next year when the rank and file realise that they have been worked over and next years rise will be less than they expected (due to the lump sum not being consolidated and so wasnt used as a basis for next years rise)