Nurses, Rail Staff and Now Driving Examiners
Discussion
JagLover said:
irc said:
Is there a recruitment crisis? First stat I found showed number of NHS nurses increasing every year since 2009.
Is that wrong?
https://www.statista.com/statistics/679976/number-...
The number of British trained Nurses has been constrained for many years by the number of places on courses available, said courses always being oversubscribed. Numbers are then made up by recruiting from overseas, which can be over 40% of the new recruits in any one year. The morality of this is often debated as the UK is effectively poaching nurses trained in poorer countries.Is that wrong?
https://www.statista.com/statistics/679976/number-...
According to the government there are record numbers of Nurses but demand seems to have increased by even more.
Of course if the population continues to increase at 500k a year then we will need more nurses (and houses and doctors and schools) just to stand still in terms of nurses per head.
Again if the gilt edged pension isn't attractive to recruiting then the package needs rebalancing to more now, less later.
Existing employees could keep their pot paused as it were, with the option of making further payments into a private pension with 5% ER cont.
Got to happen at some point soon anyway, these public sector pensions are simply not sustainable.
Existing employees could keep their pot paused as it were, with the option of making further payments into a private pension with 5% ER cont.
Got to happen at some point soon anyway, these public sector pensions are simply not sustainable.
irc said:
So if nursing courses are oversubscribed then any shortage is due to lack of training places not pay scales.
Of course if the population continues to increase at 500k a year then we will need more nurses (and houses and doctors and schools) just to stand still in terms of nurses per head.
I would agree but the issues with social care also create extra demand as many are in hospitals who should be in care homes. Of course if the population continues to increase at 500k a year then we will need more nurses (and houses and doctors and schools) just to stand still in terms of nurses per head.
JagLover said:
Tobermory said:
You can make the argument for that certainly especially when average private sector employers' contributions are around 4.5% (although higher in certain sectors such as finance nearer 10%), but given that the total remuneration package is failing to attract enough staff at present offering the same package split up in different ways wouldn't seem to be a solution. If there is a recruitment crisis as there is, the package needs to be a better one.
Many don't value the pension sufficiently or have need for more salary now rather than more pension in thirty/forty years (if buying a house say). I actually underestimated the percentage and it is more like 40%+ based on some of the numbers I have seen online, as in every year of working accrues pension rights worth £15K So retention might well improve with a £45K salary on DC voluntary alternative and it is retention that is the issue, recruitment is limited by number of training places which are always oversubscribed.
But as you say, it's not really recognised or valued by a lot of members as they won't benefit from it until most are in their late 60s.
richardxjr said:
Again if the gilt edged pension isn't attractive to recruiting then the package needs rebalancing to more now, less later.
Existing employees could keep their pot paused as it were, with the option of making further payments into a private pension with 5% ER cont.
Got to happen at some point soon anyway, these public sector pensions are simply not sustainable.
The trouble is that the employers contribution to the pension scheme is imaginary money, it doesn’t exist in the sense that there is no actual investment fund. It doesn’t cost the Governmwnt of the day a single penny. So if you move 15% of the 20% employers contribution into pay all you do is increase the NHS pay bill while reducing a liability in 40 years time. It’s likely that at least some staff will see through the sleight of hand and you can be sure that the unions will point it out in any case leading to more anger in the public sectors.Existing employees could keep their pot paused as it were, with the option of making further payments into a private pension with 5% ER cont.
Got to happen at some point soon anyway, these public sector pensions are simply not sustainable.
It would also have to be paid to all currently opted out staff including short term overseas staff, and so the increase in the wage bill would be even more.
So I doubt that’s a viable solution.
There is a recruitment crisis, fair pay is the only solution.
Edited by anonymous-user on Wednesday 30th November 18:30
OH is a nurse and the general feeling is that the current pay offer is an attempt to split the ranks,
works out a decent offer for bands 1-4 but band 5 and up it falls off a cliff.
She makes a good point, you go to uni get a degree, potentially work with volatile and dangerous people all the while you could make more money in any one of a thousand different roles with no responsibility or pressure.
stupid amounts of money getting pee'd up the wall on bank and guild staff whilst they cant fill open vacancies.
works out a decent offer for bands 1-4 but band 5 and up it falls off a cliff.
She makes a good point, you go to uni get a degree, potentially work with volatile and dangerous people all the while you could make more money in any one of a thousand different roles with no responsibility or pressure.
stupid amounts of money getting pee'd up the wall on bank and guild staff whilst they cant fill open vacancies.
Glasgowrob said:
OH is a nurse and the general feeling is that the current pay offer is an attempt to split the ranks,
works out a decent offer for bands 1-4 but band 5 and up it falls off a cliff.
She makes a good point, you go to uni get a degree, potentially work with volatile and dangerous people all the while you could make more money in any one of a thousand different roles with no responsibility or pressure.
stupid amounts of money getting pee'd up the wall on bank and guild staff whilst they cant fill open vacancies.
Presumably that's because the lower bands are less invested in a career in nursing, both in terms of time and also training and therefore need more incentive to stay? Once you are at band 5 you would be throwing away a lot of experience and also probably could not as easily find a comparable salary in another sector.works out a decent offer for bands 1-4 but band 5 and up it falls off a cliff.
She makes a good point, you go to uni get a degree, potentially work with volatile and dangerous people all the while you could make more money in any one of a thousand different roles with no responsibility or pressure.
stupid amounts of money getting pee'd up the wall on bank and guild staff whilst they cant fill open vacancies.
If so that's a pretty utilitarianist approach, albeit fiscally sensible. Why, then should nurses not take an equally pragmatic approach to achieve what they see as a fair settlement. ie using their legal right to strike?
Glasgowrob said:
OH is a nurse and the general feeling is that the current pay offer is an attempt to split the ranks,
works out a decent offer for bands 1-4 but band 5 and up it falls off a cliff.
She makes a good point, you go to uni get a degree, potentially work with volatile and dangerous people all the while you could make more money in any one of a thousand different roles with no responsibility or pressure.
stupid amounts of money getting pee'd up the wall on bank and guild staff whilst they cant fill open vacancies.
Should never have moved to a degree thing it wasn't years ago.works out a decent offer for bands 1-4 but band 5 and up it falls off a cliff.
She makes a good point, you go to uni get a degree, potentially work with volatile and dangerous people all the while you could make more money in any one of a thousand different roles with no responsibility or pressure.
stupid amounts of money getting pee'd up the wall on bank and guild staff whilst they cant fill open vacancies.
Genuine question what jobs do you think are more money with less resposility and or no pressure? Coal miner?
Staff will tolerate annual pay rises of zero, or of less than the headline rate of inflation, for years while the numbers concerned are small and the inflation is therefore more or less invisible.
Once inflation becomes meaningful, however, all those years of stagnation come back to haunt the employer - doubly so where those staff can earn more by leaving and then returning as employees of an agency. I wonder if that rings any bells for the legions of PH social darwinists who are contractors...?
Given what the current recruitment situation appears to say about the competitiveness of the package I imagine teachers will be next.
Anyone fancy a winter of discontent?
Once inflation becomes meaningful, however, all those years of stagnation come back to haunt the employer - doubly so where those staff can earn more by leaving and then returning as employees of an agency. I wonder if that rings any bells for the legions of PH social darwinists who are contractors...?
Given what the current recruitment situation appears to say about the competitiveness of the package I imagine teachers will be next.
Anyone fancy a winter of discontent?
IroningMan said:
Staff will tolerate annual pay rises of zero, or of less than the headline rate of inflation, for years while the numbers concerned are small and the inflation is therefore more or less invisible.
Once inflation becomes meaningful, however, all those years of stagnation come back to haunt the employer - doubly so where those staff can earn more by leaving and then returning as employees of an agency. I wonder if that rings any bells for the legions of PH social darwinists who are contractors...?
Given what the current recruitment situation appears to say about the competitiveness of the package I imagine teachers will be next.
Anyone fancy a winter of discontent?
A bit late, we're only 3 weeks away from the shortest day of the year.Once inflation becomes meaningful, however, all those years of stagnation come back to haunt the employer - doubly so where those staff can earn more by leaving and then returning as employees of an agency. I wonder if that rings any bells for the legions of PH social darwinists who are contractors...?
Given what the current recruitment situation appears to say about the competitiveness of the package I imagine teachers will be next.
Anyone fancy a winter of discontent?
vulture1 said:
Glasgowrob said:
OH is a nurse and the general feeling is that the current pay offer is an attempt to split the ranks,
works out a decent offer for bands 1-4 but band 5 and up it falls off a cliff.
She makes a good point, you go to uni get a degree, potentially work with volatile and dangerous people all the while you could make more money in any one of a thousand different roles with no responsibility or pressure.
stupid amounts of money getting pee'd up the wall on bank and guild staff whilst they cant fill open vacancies.
Should never have moved to a degree thing it wasn't years ago.works out a decent offer for bands 1-4 but band 5 and up it falls off a cliff.
She makes a good point, you go to uni get a degree, potentially work with volatile and dangerous people all the while you could make more money in any one of a thousand different roles with no responsibility or pressure.
stupid amounts of money getting pee'd up the wall on bank and guild staff whilst they cant fill open vacancies.
Genuine question what jobs do you think are more money with less resposility and or no pressure? Coal miner?
Chatting to the Nurse who was doing most of the caring for me she earned about £10k, I was earning just over £30k at the time. OK my job wasn't as secure but the demand for programmers was such that I never had trouble finding my next contract.
She had a lot more responsibility than I did, her job was also a lot more pressurised than mine.
Glasgowrob said:
teachers already striking heavily up here in Scotland,
couple of days a week it seems which is causing all sorts of upheaval
the winter of discontent is already here
Yes the conditions are terrible. 9am start, 11.00 break till 11.15 12.30 break till 13.30 finish at 1530 couple of days a week it seems which is causing all sorts of upheaval
the winter of discontent is already here
I make that 5hours 45 of work. If you added in 15:30-17:30for homework marking and prep time a pretty normal working day of nearly 8 hours.
vulture1 said:
Yes the conditions are terrible. 9am start, 11.00 break till 11.15 12.30 break till 13.30 finish at 1530
I make that 5hours 45 of work. If you added in 15:30-17:30for homework marking and prep time a pretty normal working day of nearly 8 hours.
my OH is bristly about the hard done by teachers, I make that 5hours 45 of work. If you added in 15:30-17:30for homework marking and prep time a pretty normal working day of nearly 8 hours.
she's a nurse working in a secure hospital, i still maintain teachers deal with more dangerous service users than she does
teachers are struggling though
one of the physics teachers from my sons school
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11490477/...
one of the physics teachers from my sons school
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11490477/...
vulture1 said:
Yes the conditions are terrible. 9am start, 11.00 break till 11.15 12.30 break till 13.30 finish at 1530
I make that 5hours 45 of work. If you added in 15:30-17:30for homework marking and prep time a pretty normal working day of nearly 8 hours.
Think you’re mistaking a teacher for the pupil…I make that 5hours 45 of work. If you added in 15:30-17:30for homework marking and prep time a pretty normal working day of nearly 8 hours.
The issue I thunk is multi facetted
1) wages are low in the UK compared to other nations
2) direct taxes are high when you consider NI IT Council Tax
3) benefits fall away very quickly and long before you are rich you loose tax free allowance
4) the state is very large so tax cuts mean job cuts pay rises tax rises
5) the welfare state still encourages people to work less to get more.
How do you fix all of these an make everyone better off.....I have no idea
1) wages are low in the UK compared to other nations
2) direct taxes are high when you consider NI IT Council Tax
3) benefits fall away very quickly and long before you are rich you loose tax free allowance
4) the state is very large so tax cuts mean job cuts pay rises tax rises
5) the welfare state still encourages people to work less to get more.
How do you fix all of these an make everyone better off.....I have no idea
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