Nurses, Rail Staff and Now Driving Examiners

[eccles]

JagLover said:

Dixy said:

Would you care to show some source for those figures

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/record-numbers-of-nhs-doctors-and-nurses

and if you don't trust the government the HOL looked at it as well

HOL said:

Looking at longer-term trends, the number of FTE non-primary care NHS staff has also grown relative to ten years ago. Between November 2010 and November 2020:

the NHS workforce increased by 15.6%;
the number of professionally qualified clinical staff increased by 15.5%;
the number of doctors increased by 26.9%;
the number of nurses and health visitors increased by 9.1%; and
the number of midwives increased by 15%.

https://lordslibrary.parliament.uk/nhs-staffing-after-covid-19/

The issue seems far more on the demand side, and COVID has also seemed to mess up health provision. Likely as well the NHS could be more efficient in how it uses the staff it has.

I must tell my Mrs that she's wrong when she says that the numbers of nurses on her ward has decreased by over a third in the last few years, after all the stats can't be wrong!

[Vasco]

So, if I have it right, it's nearly 15% over 2 years (of which 5% is not consolidated). It may not be ideal, or as much as many wanted but I can see why many nembers voted to accept it.

I see no point in the RCN attempting further industrial action - which will achieve nothing, but alienate patients even more.

[loskie]

If it's anything like the dept I work in part time working is promoted to new starts/potential new starts. Thus figures can be skewed not stating FTE but a headcount. Bear in mind 2x part time people equivalent of 1x FTE have the same admin and training needs as 2 people thus capability is reduced too.

[Dixy]

Vasco said:

which will achieve nothing, but alienate patients even more.

Absolutely right, far better that they have to wait longer, be cancelled on the day of admission, be cancelled whilst about to get their anaesthetic, oh and if the state is lucky die before their treatment.
But then we can all blame the government of the day weather that is the Tories now or Labour in 3 years.

[MiniMan64]

Ironically if they’d offer the same, funded, outcome to teachers then that would probably pass too.

[sawman]

eccles said:

JagLover said:

Dixy said:

Would you care to show some source for those figures

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/record-numbers-of-nhs-doctors-and-nurses

and if you don't trust the government the HOL looked at it as well

HOL said:

Looking at longer-term trends, the number of FTE non-primary care NHS staff has also grown relative to ten years ago. Between November 2010 and November 2020:

the NHS workforce increased by 15.6%;
the number of professionally qualified clinical staff increased by 15.5%;
the number of doctors increased by 26.9%;
the number of nurses and health visitors increased by 9.1%; and
the number of midwives increased by 15%.

https://lordslibrary.parliament.uk/nhs-staffing-after-covid-19/

The issue seems far more on the demand side, and COVID has also seemed to mess up health provision. Likely as well the NHS could be more efficient in how it uses the staff it has.

I must tell my Mrs that she's wrong when she says that the numbers of nurses on her ward has decreased by over a third in the last few years, after all the stats can't be wrong!

I really do wonder where these numbers come from, in my area elective surgery has been getting cancelled every winter (several years before covid) bcause there weren't enough staff to keep enough beds open to nurse medical and surgical patients. this is not new, its not due to covid, its woeful retention due to pay and working conditions .

[eccles]

sawman said:

eccles said:

JagLover said:

Dixy said:

Would you care to show some source for those figures

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/record-numbers-of-nhs-doctors-and-nurses

and if you don't trust the government the HOL looked at it as well

HOL said:

Looking at longer-term trends, the number of FTE non-primary care NHS staff has also grown relative to ten years ago. Between November 2010 and November 2020:

the NHS workforce increased by 15.6%;
the number of professionally qualified clinical staff increased by 15.5%;
the number of doctors increased by 26.9%;
the number of nurses and health visitors increased by 9.1%; and
the number of midwives increased by 15%.

https://lordslibrary.parliament.uk/nhs-staffing-after-covid-19/

The issue seems far more on the demand side, and COVID has also seemed to mess up health provision. Likely as well the NHS could be more efficient in how it uses the staff it has.

I must tell my Mrs that she's wrong when she says that the numbers of nurses on her ward has decreased by over a third in the last few years, after all the stats can't be wrong!

I really do wonder where these numbers come from, in my area elective surgery has been getting cancelled every winter (several years before covid) bcause there weren't enough staff to keep enough beds open to nurse medical and surgical patients. this is not new, its not due to covid, its woeful retention due to pay and working conditions .

My Mrs is a RMN and they are constantly firefighting with staff numbers. She sold back 14 days of holiday this year as it's so difficult to take. She normally runs at over 40hrs of time owning as they don't pay overtime, but you can't take it !
Everyone is burnt out, and many are transferring to the community as positions arise, but aren't getting backfilled once they've gone.

[Vasco]

So.......

Are the staff numbers definitely going up - or is it a play on total numbers due to Full Time Equivalent calculations ????

[pavarotti1980]

sawman said:

The other perspective is it will guarantee unrest and propagate a further nosedive in staff morale. Particularly next year when the rank and file realise that they have been worked over and next years rise will be less than they expected (due to the lump sum not being consolidated and so wasnt used as a basis for next years rise)

The non consolidated lump sum is known now. Shouldn't be a shock next year. However a different government may try an appease staff

[sawman]

pavarotti1980 said:

The non consolidated lump sum is known now. Shouldn't be a shock next year. However a different government may try an appease staff

Known by those who looked at the detail….Only 25% of my prof group even bothered to vote

[pavarotti1980]

sawman said:

Known by those who looked at the detail….Only 25% of my prof group even bothered to vote

I don't have sympathy with anyone who didn't read it then complain later

[Hugo Stiglitz]

Police get circa 1600 as a one off and nurses 3000-4500 as a one off plus 5% this year?

[pavarotti1980]

Hugo Stiglitz said:

Police get circa 1600 as a one off and nurses 3000-4500 as a one off plus 5% this year?

3-4.5k one off? There is nobody getting that

[Brainpox]

Vasco said:

So.......

Are the staff numbers definitely going up - or is it a play on total numbers due to Full Time Equivalent calculations ????

Services are expanding without the staff to back them up. Population is getting older and more complex and expectations for what the NHS provides ever increases. So total numbers may be going up, but spread more thinly meaning there are still increasing vacancy rates.

[Brainpox]

Hugo Stiglitz said:

Police get circa 1600 as a one off and nurses 3000-4500 as a one off plus 5% this year?

https://www.nhsemployers.org/offer-in-principle

You won't find many band 9 nurses around. Most are band 6.

[Brainpox]

sawman said:

pavarotti1980 said:

The non consolidated lump sum is known now. Shouldn't be a shock next year. However a different government may try an appease staff

Known by those who looked at the detail….Only 25% of my prof group even bothered to vote

We had a relatively good turnout this time round but as our profession/union is tiny and most others voted to accept the deal it was basically pointless.

[Vasco]

pavarotti1980 said:

Hugo Stiglitz said:

Police get circa 1600 as a one off and nurses 3000-4500 as a one off plus 5% this year?

3-4.5k one off? There is nobody getting that

You'd better tell the BBC.

[pavarotti1980]

Vasco said:

You'd better tell the BBC.

they better check their sources instead

[Murph7355]

eccles said:

sawman said:

eccles said:

JagLover said:

Dixy said:

Would you care to show some source for those figures

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/record-numbers-of-nhs-doctors-and-nurses

and if you don't trust the government the HOL looked at it as well

HOL said:

Looking at longer-term trends, the number of FTE non-primary care NHS staff has also grown relative to ten years ago. Between November 2010 and November 2020:

the NHS workforce increased by 15.6%;
the number of professionally qualified clinical staff increased by 15.5%;
the number of doctors increased by 26.9%;
the number of nurses and health visitors increased by 9.1%; and
the number of midwives increased by 15%.

https://lordslibrary.parliament.uk/nhs-staffing-after-covid-19/

The issue seems far more on the demand side, and COVID has also seemed to mess up health provision. Likely as well the NHS could be more efficient in how it uses the staff it has.

I must tell my Mrs that she's wrong when she says that the numbers of nurses on her ward has decreased by over a third in the last few years, after all the stats can't be wrong!

I really do wonder where these numbers come from, in my area elective surgery has been getting cancelled every winter (several years before covid) bcause there weren't enough staff to keep enough beds open to nurse medical and surgical patients. this is not new, its not due to covid, its woeful retention due to pay and working conditions .

My Mrs is a RMN and they are constantly firefighting with staff numbers. She sold back 14 days of holiday this year as it's so difficult to take. She normally runs at over 40hrs of time owning as they don't pay overtime, but you can't take it !
Everyone is burnt out, and many are transferring to the community as positions arise, but aren't getting backfilled once they've gone.

You're not seeing the full picture.

1) Numbers can still go up and individual wards/hospitals still be down on numbers.
2) Elective surgery can still be cancelled even if numbers are rising
3) People can still be working overtime even if numbers are rising

If numbers are rising slower than demand is rising, or if the numbers being added are being added in the "wrong" areas, we still have a problem. Albeit less of a problem than we would have had if numbers hadn't risen.

This is the perennial issue with the NHS. Can funding, staffing, training etc etc keep pace with an ageing population that isn't getting any healthier and also demands treatment for more and more conditions? Currently the answer is no.

(And yes, I totally get some people think that if we implemented a German system, or a French system then all would be fine. I'm not convinced, but would be great for someone in power to make the case and show their workings ).

[Dixy]

Perhaps they should just manage what it is reasonable for the populace to expect from the NHS.